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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
89. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    17 19.10%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    24 26.97%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    39 43.82%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    0 0%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    9 10.11%

Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #5101
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    I really doubt there are many politicians in the US who think they are honestly doing good ...
    All the Republicans really think they are doing good.
    The question you should ask is: for *whom* are they doing good.

    Republicans (and maybe Democrats too) work for the people who pay their campaigns. Or they work for the people who will give them well-paid jobs after they leave politics. They do not work for the people who voted for them. So according to this background information, it will be easy for you to understand: the Republicans do good for insurance companies, big pharma, etc.

  2. #5102
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I was considering giving SD the benefit of the doubt, but then he went on to say "They're not really innocent, are they. Essence of distilled evil is nearer the mark."
    So what. I still don't advocate people being killed even if they are evil. It's my side that's against the death penalty, if you're paying attention.

  3. #5103
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I just want to say, regardless of anything political or how I feel about it, it's good to see SD back. I do happen to agree in this case with him but won't I'm sure in future ones. That does not matter. That is a load of crap compared to his being here. Good to see you. I missed you in my own wicked way.

  4. #5104
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I didn't see that part of SD's response.

    Though as far as what the media is doing, the more left leaning sites are starting to act like the right leaning sites like Breitbart, Infowars, and their ilk. Leaning more towards outrage and anger to rile up their fanbase, giving them even more reason to hate that things they already hate. Rather than elevating political discourse, it's all being lowered down into the muck and the mire. Though on the flipside of things, some of the right leaning pundits are now making calls to regulate their anger, especially after this most recent shooting. Ted Nugent, of all people, popped up recently, claiming it was time to tone down the rhetoric.

    So yeah, we're about to see a huge leftist populist swing on par with the alt-right. It won't be pretty.
    the righties are armed with firearms while most lefties can only carry/use dildos

  5. #5105
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Dildos scare righties more. They are afraid somebody will have some fun.

  6. #5106
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    nah, righties pretend to be scared, IIRC righty states watch the most porn.

  7. #5107
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    "I want to outlaw homosexuality, so I can feel dirty when I do it."

  8. #5108
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    nah, righties pretend to be scared, IIRC righty states watch the most porn.
    Not quite. All states watch a lot of porn, but the righty states get into the weird stuff more often.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #5109
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here

  10. #5110
    Been gone for awhile due to life busyness, but will go out on a limb and predict something.

    I believe that the TTLG consensus is going to back down from "Trump colluded wth Putin to steal the election".

    Simple reason: I am in the airport and it looks like CNN is backing down. Since most of the members here are a bit older and get most of their news/opinions from corporate media pundits their opinions will follow suit.

  11. #5111
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    All the Republicans really think they are doing good.
    The question you should ask is: for *whom* are they doing good.

    Republicans (and maybe Democrats too) work for the people who pay their campaigns. Or they work for the people who will give them well-paid jobs after they leave politics. They do not work for the people who voted for them. So according to this background information, it will be easy for you to understand: the Republicans do good for insurance companies, big pharma, etc.
    Ironic you make that claim when Obama literally invited insurance lobbyists in to help write ACA and even gave them some veto power...and then played both sides of the fence afterwards: https://www.publicintegrity.org/2015...e-profiting-it

  12. #5112
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    This is why people think you're such an intolerable drip around here, Tony. Never once did SD say he commiserated with the shooter, or that we should see more politicians being shot, but he does see how some people would find it rather fittingly ironic that an alleged pro-gun advocate would end up being harmed due to the very laws he passed. There's more smug schadenfreude here than righteous vindictiveness.

    It's called reading comprehension. I suggest you engage it. Read what was said, and reread it to make sure you're understanding what's being said before jumping to wild conclusions.
    Would you extend me the same moral benefit of the doubt if I said it was humorously ironic and that I could sympathize with the guy who mowed down Muslim worshippers in London?

    I highly doubt it. You wouldn't be wasting time on "reading comprehension" or seek to finer nuance of what I had said. You would rush to immediate, harsh, judgement.


    Never I did that the whole "gun control" argument is a complete farce so long as we have both the US intelligence agencies giving away guns like free lollipops at a bank counter and a southern US border that is wide open so those weapons come right back into the country.

  13. #5113
    And hate to post yet again...but WSJ just broke another story that had anyone who cared to pay attention already knew.

    In other words yet another of my "tinfoil hat conspiracy theories" turns out to be true: Israel Gives Secret Aid to Syrian Rebels https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-...els-1497813430

  14. #5114
    Hits keep coming tonight.

    Remember how it was idiotic and alt-right conspiracy theory to think that these people.had anything to do with Russia?

    The truth is even weirder


    Wikileaks has a new cable about that:

    https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09STATE85588_a.html

  15. #5115
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You know what your problem is, Tony? You're always running around here, calling people brainwashed and stupid in so many words, then you get so UTTERLY OFFENDED when people don't give you the respect you see them giving everyone else.

    You're reaping what you sow.

    Oh, and you have this weirdo tendency to project responses on people here, then respond to them in kind. The end result makes you look like you're tilting at windmills.

    Like finding out that Israel has been supplying weapons and aid to Syrian rebels? That wouldn't be surprising in the least, considering that...

    A. Israel tends to follow the US example in most of its foreign affairs on anything beyond Palestine.

    B. Assad's government is allied with Russia, who in turn is allied with Iran, one of Israel's bigger enemies in the region.

    Anyone who's been following current world affairs wouldn't be too shocked by this revelation. But you just can't help yourself. You have to come in, screaming LOOK GUYS! YOU CALLED ME STUPID, BUT WHO'S LAUGHING NOW? HUH? HUH? HUH?, tilting against a windmill that isn't even there.

  16. #5116
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Iacon
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    To me, "terrible, harmful ideology" equates to malice, which does exist in Western countries, but I really believe that it's only in some of the fringes. The vast, vast majority of people don't have malicious intent and are capable of making reasonable judgments. The main thing that divides us is a difference in perspective, and if we don't try to understand or appreciate each other's perspective, it's hard to maintain a well functioning democracy.
    Maybe not active malice, but I think a lack of compassion can be a repeated theme for the Right. The poor can just work harder. Trans people are just kidding themselves. Black people should quit complaining because racism is over, etc.

    Also of course ignorance, or just bad ideology can be to blame. I'm not always assuming villainy here.

    I get the need to work together and compromise sometimes, really. But, I dunno, how am I meant to respect someone who thinks muslims should all be expelled from the country, or that global warming is a big hoax? Lots of patience and willingness to explain stuff is required, I guess.
    Last edited by Chimpy Chompy; 20th Jun 2017 at 08:19.

  17. #5117
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I don't think it's just perspective alone. I think it's a religious-like dogma people are loyal to that's naturally constructed out of, and preying on, some common cognitive biases. Like any dogma, it's not that people aren't smart enough to see it's inconsistencies, it's that they're willfully loyal to it and inconsistencies or criticism are perceived as an attack on them as persons and not arguments. So then you get this curious phenomenon that's so popular lately of people doubling-down on their stances, actually becoming more loyal to them the more they are criticized. That's definitely a part of the Trump effect. It's like the Right's equivalent of virtue signalling. They actually feel validated when they get a chance to defend their wankery from attack.

    But whatever. This is Political Action Theory 101 stuff you'd learn in an intro political theory class. The winning move is not to play and simply float above the whole mess and take a detached, unbiased account of it like an alien anthropologist.

  18. #5118
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    You know what your problem is, Tony? You're always running around here, calling people brainwashed and stupid in so many words, then you get so UTTERLY OFFENDED when people don't give you the respect you see them giving everyone else.

    You're reaping what you sow.

    Oh, and you have this weirdo tendency to project responses on people here, then respond to them in kind. The end result makes you look like you're tilting at windmills.

    Like finding out that Israel has been supplying weapons and aid to Syrian rebels? That wouldn't be surprising in the least, considering that...

    A. Israel tends to follow the US example in most of its foreign affairs on anything beyond Palestine.

    B. Assad's government is allied with Russia, who in turn is allied with Iran, one of Israel's bigger enemies in the region.

    Anyone who's been following current world affairs wouldn't be too shocked by this revelation. But you just can't help yourself. You have to come in, screaming LOOK GUYS! YOU CALLED ME STUPID, BUT WHO'S LAUGHING NOW? HUH? HUH? HUH?, tilting against a windmill that isn't even there.
    Funny you should mention "projecting" when calling everyone who disagrees brainwashed and stupid is what you do. Not "in so many words" either as your posts usually contain he phrase "fucking moron".

    What I have accuse s you of is willfully ignoring pertinent facts, which is very different from being "brainwashed and stupid". I even have a recent post where I said most members here are smarter than average specifically rebuffing GMDs statement that you all are stupid.

    I would take your post more seriously had you yourself not mocked my statements to the effect that Israel and other Western powers fund extremist rebels as being crazy and paranoid....before turning around parroting logic very similar to what I've said (I've been pointing for literally YEARS here that a big factor is Iran and Qatar wanting pipelines through Syria) acting as if you thought that all the time.

    It was the same way with "the government can watch you through your TV". I said that, was repeatedly called crazy, and then after the Vault 7 release I was told "Of course thy do that, DUH!"

    I also think you are wrong in your assessment of Israel. The US follows Israels lead, not the other way round. Notice how all the governments toppled during the Arab Spring were ones that Israel had long been working to destabilize......and hell even do your own homework. Israel spends an enormous amount of effort and money trying to control US foreign policy and they are so good at it that any politician who speaks out against them immediately has to backtrack because they get targeted by well funded, well organized smear campaigns painting them as anti Semitic.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 20th Jun 2017 at 12:48.

  19. #5119
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: I think I've been here
    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    The winning move is not to play and simply float above the whole mess and take a detached, unbiased account of it like an alien anthropologist.

    Or like Goldmoon Dawn, am I right? I mean that's exactly what he claims he does. You see how that works out. Maybe we cannot escape our biases when we are affected by the decisions at hand.

  20. #5120
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Chimpy Chompy View Post
    Maybe not active malice, but I think a lack of compassion can be a repeated theme for the Right. The poor can just work harder. Trans people are just kidding themselves. Black people should quit complaining because racism is over, etc.

    Also of course ignorance, or just bad ideology can be to blame. I'm not always assuming villainy here.

    I get the need to work together and compromise sometimes, really. But, I dunno, how am I meant to respect someone who thinks muslims should all be expelled from the country, or that global warming is a big hoax? Lots of patience and willingness to explain stuff is required, I guess.
    If you have a good friend that you've known for many years and you find out they don't believe in global warming, do you immediately lose respect for them? I hope not.

    I've seen a couple of my Republican friends come around to accepting anthropogenic climate change. I still have one (or maybe two) who are deniers but they are well educated people so I have hope they will change their mind. They're not stupid, just haven't bothered to really look into it.

    I just think people tend to dismiss the other side too easily. Republicans are a bunch of dimwits and racists, if they weren't all so stupid and brainwashed they'd see that they're voting against their interest. Democrats are all pinko socialists, they just want you to be lazy so you'll depend on the government. Etc. Easy words to throw around on internet forums or when you're surrounded by like-minded people, but I don't see many people talking like that at parties with a mix of Democrats and Republicans. Or when you're talking to friends or family who have opposing views.

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogue View Post
    I don't think it's just perspective alone. I think it's a religious-like dogma people are loyal to that's naturally constructed out of, and preying on, some common cognitive biases. Like any dogma, it's not that people aren't smart enough to see it's inconsistencies, it's that they're willfully loyal to it and inconsistencies or criticism are perceived as an attack on them as persons and not arguments. So then you get this curious phenomenon that's so popular lately of people doubling-down on their stances, actually becoming more loyal to them the more they are criticized. That's definitely a part of the Trump effect. It's like the Right's equivalent of virtue signalling. They actually feel validated when they get a chance to defend their wankery from attack.
    I agree to a point. I've certainly met a fair share of people who are dogmatic. But my experience has been that people are far more dogmatic in their online interactions than in person. Some of the most partisan people I've met are friends that I've known for many years, some on different ends of the spectrum. When political discussions come up, the discussion is civil and usually the partisan talking points get tossed aside relatively quickly. Sometimes we just agree to disagree before it gets very far, but there have been some really good conversations that go on late into the night. Maybe that's because we were friends first, but I think the main thing is that we generally respect each other, so when we disagree we're not going to just write each other off as idiots.

    But whatever. This is Political Action Theory 101 stuff you'd learn in an intro political theory class. The winning move is not to play and simply float above the whole mess and take a detached, unbiased account of it like an alien anthropologist.
    Somebody has to campaign though.

  21. #5121
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    I also think you are wrong in your assessment of Israel. The US follows Israels lead, not the other way round. Notice how all the governments toppled during the Arab Spring were ones that Israel had long been working to destabilize......and hell even do your own homework. Israel spends an enormous amount of effort and money trying to control US foreign policy and they are so good at it that any politician who speaks out against them immediately has to backtrack because they get targeted by well funded, well organized smear campaigns painting them as anti Semitic.
    Aww, poor Tony. Nobody told you. We don't talk about those things. In fact, even thinking about those things is sacrilege to be honest. The whole mess in the Middle East was caused by bible thumping white supremacists on the one hand and uncivilized bloodthirsty Muslim extremists on the other. Just accept these facts as the truth and don't overthink them, any other version is just fake news, lies and propaganda spouted by Russian bots.

    In any case, the country you're talking about has nothing to do with any of this. After all, it's the "only democracy in that region", and their army is "the most ethical army in the whole world". One of France's most eminent philosopher said that, so you can bet your ass it's true.

    Just follow the example of Colbert in his interview of Oliver Stone recently. You can't let people express negationist and revisionist opinions like that. Some things are sacred, and you can't just attack what's sacred.

  22. #5122
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Or like Goldmoon Dawn, am I right? I mean that's exactly what he claims he does. You see how that works out. Maybe we cannot escape our biases when we are affected by the decisions at hand.
    I can agree double-talk is rampant these days, where by "detached analysis" he can mean its exact opposite.

    As for your last point, the metaphor I like for this is a good poker player. One of the early things you learn when learning to play poker is to consciously recognize your tells, your reflexive biases and psychological ticks that give away your hand, and then consciously learn to ignore them or even control them at will. Like if you touch your chips it means you have a good hand, and if you withdraw from them more than usual you have a bad hand. If people can do it for poker, they can do it for politics. The only question is if people want to win at politics like they want to win at poker. It's actually usually when people *don't* have a stake in the outcome that they don't care about winning or losing and tolerate awful decisions to send a message. But anyway, people have the power to be detached, but whether they have the motivation to do it or not is another question.

  23. #5123
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Iacon
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    If you have a good friend that you've known for many years and you find out they don't believe in global warming, do you immediately lose respect for them? I hope not.
    Fair point. I should have phrased it differently, not so much about respect for the person as respect for their opinions on the particular topic. Sometimes I find you've just got to compartmentalise these things that make up your view of a person. Some people in my life I have tremendous respect for overall, but I'm not ever asking them about politics, nothing productive will come of that.
    Last edited by Chimpy Chompy; 23rd Jun 2017 at 09:07.

  24. #5124
    Regarding me thinking people are "brainwashed".

    Not quite. And I don't think it's anything unique to TTLG posters.

    I think that people in generally instinctively change their perception of reality to conform both to peer pressure and perceived authority. There is a wealth of research out there indicating that people will even deny obvious, blatant facts that are right in front of their eyes and change their beliefs about that due to peer pressure. Most notably there are the famous Asch experiments where participants would change their belief about how long a line on a piece of paper was when led to believe that the group consensus was in favor of a blatantly false measurement.

    This was an objective, immeasurable, indisputable FACT and people would still refuse to believe it.


    There's a reason why Trump used to talk so much about his popularity and the number of people at his rallies, and why he I guarantee now that his approval number is over 50% he's going to start talking about that.

    That's also why Democrats made such a huge amount of noise about "well, but the popular vote really means that...." Nevermind that Bill Clinton and George Bush both lost the popular vote during previous elections. It explains why so much progressive Demagoguery is focused on out-grouping detractors as "extremists" or "kooks".

    Both groups are fighting for the perception of being the majority so that the majority of people out there will instinctively re-write their perception of reality in order to better conform with what they perceive as being the in-group.




    Here's why any lack of disconformity is threatening: in the original experiment even a single dissenter from the peer group caused the number of reality deniers to drop to about 5% of the experiment. That might explain why progressives generally favor "hate speech" laws as it allows any minority deniers or opposition to be silenced.



    Fair point. I should have phrased it differently, not so much about respect for the person as respect for their opinions on the particular topic. Sometimes I find you've just got to compartmentalise these things that make up your view of a person. Sme people I my life have tremendous respect for overall but I not ever asking them about politics, nothing productive will come of that.

    In my private life, I have been warning my non-liberal friends to be very careful of their surroundings for a while now. Militant liberal organizations (BLM, Antifa, etc) along with the mainstream media have been laying the groundwork for some time that attacking conservatives with violence is perfectly justified. Some fringe groups and media (even semi-mainstream sites like Gawker) out there are deliberately undermining people's ability to compartmentalize by teaching them to conflate conservatives with "fascists". Not that this is news to some folks but there is a undercurrent in parts of the liberal community that is on the verge of boiling over; tons of young people being taught to think that killing conservatives is social justice. Most will not act out on it but they are supportive of people who take action.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 22nd Jun 2017 at 13:39.

  25. #5125
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Tony, you'd be at least more tolerated around here if you argued solely on facts, rather than always leaning on accusing others of being blinded by confirmation bias (which you yourself are incredibly guilty of), or other neat little psychological quips you read about recently whenever people don't immediately take to whatever you're throwing at them.

    It does nothing to strengthen your argument, but does plenty to make you look like smug prick who has nothing but his smugness to rely on.

    "THE REASON YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME IS BECAUSE THE UNBRIDLED TRUTH I'M PUTTING ON DISPLAY HERE IS TOO HARD FOR YOU TO ACCEPT! IF YOU WERE A FREE THINKER, UNBURDENED BY BIASES, YOU'D AGREE WITH ME 100%!"

    Also, I'm pretty Bill Clinton won the popular vote for both his terms. But maybe that's just my confirmation biases talking.

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