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Thread: Make Thief great again

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Bulgaria

    Make Thief great again

    What do you think it will be necessary to revive the Thief franchise? Is a Thief 5 game still a good idea? What concrete steps would you suggest so the games could still attract a next generation of players?

    Or is it just a lost hope?

    Here we're talking about how to make Thief great again

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2009
    Just rerecruit LGS and let them make anything - even simulator should be better that 120% jf last decade console-like lunar-lighting stuff.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    To attract the "next generation of players," games have to be made simpler. Making a game like old-school Thief is not economically viable now.

    The only hope we have is modding. From the fans for the fans. Mad respect to all the FM authors who still create missions for a game that is more than 15 years old

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    No, I, for one, do NOT want to see more travesties like TDS and Thi4f. In spite of being totally disillusioned and disappointed by TDS I went ahead and tried to play Thi4f ....... and was once again totally disillusioned and disappointed. As far as 'recruiting LGS', I think Arkane (Dishonored games) has dibs on them (Dishonored 2 even featured Stephen Russell's voice as Corvo Attano and can you say TERRI BROSIUS?). Imo the Dishonored games were more true as legacies to the Thief franchise than TDS & Thi4f.

    'attract a next generation of players'? No, oh God, please NO! That's what's going wrong with most of the games being released in the past several years, especially the 'reboots'! The games are dumbed down because the 'next generation' seems to have the attention span of gnats, at least in the devs' opinion. SO dumbed down that it almost hurts to play them. Even the Deus Ex franchise is suffering from that 'let's make it easier for the young folk to play' syndrome'. The devs haven't gotten it through their heads yet that by trying to appeal to the next generation, they're coming very close to alienating the experienced (ok, the older) gamers.

    So yes, I think trying to revive the Thief franchise is a lost cause. Or at least is should be.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    TDS is true to the franchise.

  6. #6
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    This has been discussed quite a bit, but I agree with others who say:

    1. Let FM makers carry on the Thief legacy.
    2. Let Otherside Games make a true spiritual successor to Thief (not a reboot, no Garrett, etc.).
    Last edited by Brethren; 10th Mar 2017 at 13:20.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2009
    Imo the Dishonored games were more true as legacies to the Thief franchise than TDS & Thi4f
    Throw stones, but Arkane's jobs _are_ travesties, maybe because they claim their tributes to LGS so much. And FMs too, a schoolboy can't just sit and write sequel to LOTR. Fan works, it's like photographing own peanuts..
    And yes, after all these years i finally get with TDS and count it bastard but nevertheless of Thief. Original people even participated in level design and story, how can one can hope for more?

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Pawtucket,Rhode Island
    I think that most publishers just seem to really underestimate the new generation of gamers.I don't know what you guys consider as a new or experienced gamer,but I am 24 turning 25 this year and I really can't stand all of this dumbing down of games when there is really no reason to.

    Not every one under 30 is a complete moron that can't handle a game that does have all the action take place via a 3-second cutscene or press button to win with no complexity,boring level design and dumbed down mechanics.

    There are plenty of people out there who have no problem with that kind of complexity in their single player experiences.Look you are never going to draw in or keep the gamers with the attention spans of a gerbil who only play games like COD,Madden,other annually released generic schlock,or MLG types who only maybe multiplayer or MOBA's you are never gonna bring those people in.

    Your better off pleasing the old fan base and bringing in new players to the wonders of more complex games.I liked Fallout 4 a lot but I was disappointed with a lot of aspects as well,I really wish they had taken a lot more inspiration from New Vegas than they did,but that didn't happen and personally I think that was to lure in the no think crowd.

    I think a lot of devs and publishers need to learn the difference between dumbing down,and QOL changes.The sad part is Square is usually pretty good with that a least when it comes to JRPGs one has just got to look at a lot of the lovely QOL changes they made to their Final Fantasy,Dragon Quest and other JRPG Remakes,Nintendo seems to get it pretty well too well at least the Zelda Team does.

    Another example would be the Elder Scrolls Series at lot of people who have accused Skyrim and Oblivion of dumbing down the series where I see some the changes as QOL and others as a dumbing down more so in Skyrim than Oblivion but I also think they all got a lot of other things right.For me a perfect ES VI would take what worked in Morrowind,Oblivion and Skyrim and maybe throw in some new ideas.I really think Bartering and Spell Crafting need to make a comeback.

    Dishonored is really the closest we have gonna to a spiritual successor to Thief 1 and 2 from a big Dev and it does a really great job,but I still would say that at least in my opinion it is missing something that was in Thief 1 and 2 and even its fan works but I can't my finger on it,I would call it the intangibles of what made Thief 1 and 2 special.I would say that the Engine and the setting played a big part,the Dark Engine was just special and I don't many or any engines have come close to its charm.I would love to see a well crafted sequel or spiritual successor to the Thief Series.

    Some of my favorite games that I have played in recent years have been games that followed Older Game Designed principles without forsaken the progress that as been made and the two were married beautifully.So I absolutely believe it is possible to make a modern game that captures all the brilliance and genius of yesteryear. It just take the right team and a publisher willing to take the risk.
    Last edited by Maxrebo6; 10th Mar 2017 at 20:26.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by lowenz View Post
    TDS is true to the franchise.
    Strictly speaking, of course. Yes, it had Garrett, the Keepers, etc., but the immersion factor was lost, as well as the ambience, imo. Otherwise, it was an epic fail. Again, in my opinion. Dishonored and D2 had that immersion and ambience that made TDP and TMA the great games they were; so much so that when I heard a City Watch guard say, 'Maybe it was rats' or 'What smells?!' I felt like I'd returned home. Not so in TDS and/or Thi4f.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulgarian_Taffer View Post
    What do you think it will be necessary to revive the Thief franchise? Is a Thief 5 game still a good idea? What concrete steps would you suggest so the games could still attract a next generation of players?
    If they make it an open world game, with some bits of RPG gameplay, sensibly, where it makes sense, and, especially, if they can retain the spirit of the old games, i'd be all in. Unfortunately, i don't see the target audience for that kind of games anymore. Just look at what stealth games are about these days. At best, they give you optional stealth mechanics. Nah, IMO, pure stealth games are dead. I don't think there will be another Thief part. But then, there's TDM, so...

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Dia View Post
    Strictly speaking, of course. Yes, it had Garrett, the Keepers, etc., but the immersion factor was lost, as well as the ambience, imo. Otherwise, it was an epic fail. Again, in my opinion. Dishonored and D2 had that immersion and ambience that made TDP and TMA the great games they were; so much so that when I heard a City Watch guard say, 'Maybe it was rats' or 'What smells?!' I felt like I'd returned home. Not so in TDS and/or Thi4f.
    FWIW, i felt very at home in TDS. It may be a bit different than TDP, and TMA, but, a very good "Thief-y" game in its own rights, IMO.

    And, i agree, Dishonored is as close at it gets from the newer games. Still a completely different universe, and style, though.

  12. #12
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The next big thing I think may happen is if The Dark Mod goes up on Steam, there should be a big influx of people playing that, a lot will pick up the editor and want to contribute to the scene, and then a lot of those people are going to discover the New Dark FMs still being made as well. So that's where I foresee the next big influx of new blood to help carry the torch. I don't see it coming from any commercial game.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Dia View Post
    Strictly speaking, of course. Yes, it had Garrett, the Keepers, etc., but the immersion factor was lost, as well as the ambience, imo. Otherwise, it was an epic fail. Again, in my opinion. Dishonored and D2 had that immersion and ambience that made TDP and TMA the great games they were; so much so that when I heard a City Watch guard say, 'Maybe it was rats' or 'What smells?!' I felt like I'd returned home. Not so in TDS and/or Thi4f.
    Some of us care about the way game plays too, you know.
    And, purely as a stealth game, Dishonored is closer to Deus Ex than it is to Thief given how light and shadows is next to irrelevant to their stealth.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    @Increasing: Each to their own. But I still feel that overall D1 and D2 were more worthy successors to TDP & TMA than TDS and/or Thi4f. Besides, I didn't play either D1 or D2 strictly as stealth games; more like action/stealth, though I did manage to ghost both games at least once during my many playthrus of each.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2003
    Location: Still hoarding rope arrows
    Playing Dishonored and Dishonored 2 felt more like Thief than Thief 4 did. I never did finish Thief 4 , but completed the other two several times Stepping into Dunwall or Karnaca felt..familiar. I didn't realize why, though, until I read the credits. Although you don't have to play stealth, you can. There are stealth related achievements. But there's no penalty if you want to play like a psychopathic murderer either.

    There was an interesting article over at http://www.pcgamer.com/the-designers...complex-games/ I KNEW they must be talking about die-hard taffers here when one of the commentators mentioned they were contacted through twitter by a group who said they were a group of "people who like to find every coin in the Dishonored games, and we think that there are a few that have fallen through the world that can't be collected. Can you help us?"

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Moghedian View Post
    Playing Dishonored and Dishonored 2 felt more like Thief than Thief 4 did.
    That's what i've been saying all the time...

  17. #17
    Having gone back and played a bit of all 6 games recently, the biggest things that Thief 1 and 2 and Dishonored 1 and 2 have which are missing from Thief 3 and 4:

    a.) Good player movement and environmental interaction. Everyone bitches about the context-sensitive nonsense in Thief 4, but I find that the awful body-awareness and general awkwardness of interacting with things like chests and bodies in Thief 3 is equally if not more appalling.
    b.) Levels that feel like real places rather than a series of tunnels with challenges at the end of each.
    c.) Polychromatism. T1/2 and DH1/2, even when set in dark/depressing environments, are exploding with color. T3 is blue and T4 is grey. The original Quake, which was and is lambasted for having a boring palette, is like having sex in a bowl of Lucky Charms while on acid compared to those 2 games.

    And all of these are a big reason why DXIW is a sack of shit too. They're also things I'm a tad worried about when I watch footage of the System Shock reboot and Ultima Ascendant.
    Last edited by Jason Moyer; 19th Mar 2017 at 22:46.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    They're also things I'm a tad worried about when I watch footage of the System Shock reboot and Ultima Ascendant.
    Really? Color palette or level design or environmental interaction or all of them?

  19. #19
    Yes.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, they are taking a very systemic approach to UA, to the point of even being able to burn down doors if they are made of wood. That's more than Thief ever did. And level design in SS reboot should be based on the original game, so...

  21. #21
    Sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean the movement and world-interaction is going to feel good or that the games won't be near-monochromatic. The one UA clip I've seen is eye-searing, which is weird because UU was a fairly vibrant, colorful game.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Here is one of the latest WIP screenshots of UA (click for larger version):



    And here's another:
    Last edited by Starker; 21st Mar 2017 at 07:24.

  23. #23
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    The first thing that jumped to my mind when I first saw those UW:A shots was "Look! Teal and orange!"

    Which is to say, yes, colour matters, and I completely agree with Jason's point that the designers' imaginative use of a diverse palette contributed to the success of T1/2 and D1/2. Of course, it is one factor among many. They are great games because they do a lot of different things well, not just because they have one perfectly implemented feature.

    And adding to Jason's points,
    b) Add: Levels which are meaningfully non-linear and three-dimensional, adding to your ability to interact with the environment.
    d) A willingness to take creative risks and come up with original, high-concept settings like Thief's industrialised mediaeval society or Dishonored's whale-based economy.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I guess I'm just blind then, because I don't see these signs of danger. I haven't followed the SS reboot very closely, but the progress made on UA has been nothing but encouraging.

    As for teal and orange, it's not like LGS didn't use it:




  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: May 2010
    Not to play the party pooper.. but, anything i've seen so far from Underworld Ascendant looks quite underwhelming, be it the graphics, animations, or gameplay. To be honest, i never played Ultima Underworld, but, not too tempted to get Underworld Ascendant, unless groundbreaking stuff happens. Also that Warren Spector claimed in a video that not much has changed in regards of fantasy RPG's, and that their old stuff is still state of the art appears a bit out of this world, and pretentious to me. Don't get me wrong, i like pretty much anything he was involved in, and he's one of the leading figures in the game, but, a lot has changed since his/their earlier games. And if Underworld Ascendant doesn't feature state of the art technology (it surely doesn't look like it so far...), they can pretty much pack in.

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