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Thread: Being immigrated in France what can happen to me if Marine Le Pen wins the elections

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by montag View Post
    ...thanks Bruder, for your valuable input.
    Continually settling for the "lesser" evil. Got us trump vs Hillary . Keep. Being pragmatic and continue to complain year after year because the. Candidates just keep getting worse

  2. #77
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Hillary and Trump won their positions. Yes. It's true. Sanders would've had a better chance of winning the primaries were the DNC to support him as fully as Hillary, and the fact he came so close to clinching it without their support should've been a massive wake up call for the party. But the fact remains, he lost. The people voted for Hillary, and Trump won with a plurality. They were our two choices.

    Complaining that the better candidate should've won, then abstaining to vote as a form of protest (or in your case, voting for Johnson, which wouldn't have been all that bad to end up with) when one candidate you're stuck with is objectively worse than the other that's been foisted upon you serves no purpose other than to give you an ultimately empty, fleeting burst of superiority. It's a self defeating black and white morality applied to a situation that requires you to think on a gradient. As nice as it'd be to always do what you believe is the right thing, sometimes you have to settle on doing something you don't like to prevent a worse scenario from happening. Welcome to the world.

    If the Bernie Bros. wanted to bust, they got their wish, and their little political revolution has been stalled for at least 4 years. If they voted Trump as an act of revenge against the DNC snubbing their favored candidates, they've only managed to fuck themselves over in the end. What have they achieved, other than telling themselves they did the right thing after they find they're no longer able to afford their insurance, and are being crushed under an overwhelming amount of education debt? Yeah, guy. Stand tall. You did yourself proud. Welcome to poverty with a bachelors degree, by the way. Hope you don't break a bone bagging those groceries. It costs about $4000 to get it set without coverage.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 25th Apr 2017 at 03:51.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: swimming in pickled herring
    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    Continually settling for the "lesser" evil. Got us trump vs Hillary . Keep. Being pragmatic and continue to complain year after year because the. Candidates just keep getting worse
    Wow, really? Thanks for your input, who did you vote for? Did you support your own country, or did you run away?

  4. #79
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    GREAT! NOW I'M DEPRESSED! I'M GONNA GET DRUNK AND PLAY SOME VIDEOGAMES!

    FUCK ALL YALL!

    ...and yes, I realize that, as a moderator, I should probably do my duty, and move all of JK's stuff into the Trump Dump where it's more topically appropriate. But I'm gonna get drunk. Can't do it right now.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: swimming in pickled herring
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I'M GONNA GET DRUNK AND PLAY SOME VIDEOGAMES!
    Sorry Renz, load up MWO and come kill my Locost or Cicada, Imma ready to die! Come at me, bro!

  6. #81
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I'm playing Ducktales. I need to relive those happier times, when our vice president misspelling potato was the greatest political scandal of the day.

  7. #82
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I should probably do my duty . . . But I'm gonna get drunk.
    Typical of the younger generation! Fun first, duty second. Disgraceful.

  8. #83
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Macron is really mainstream though. Still pro-EU, cosmopolitan, broadly liberal, already highly experienced. He's not really a departure. I don't see the doom & gloom. But then I'm wary of extremists and populists so he was in my target zone to begin with.

    (And I'd vote LibDem in the UK if I could, well, if their equivalents were running for US office. The US would be lucky to have candidates in that spectrum.)

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    The doom & gloom is because Macron is a direct continuation of the current failure of a government ruling the country for the past 5 years, which is by far the most unpopular government since De Gaulle's term. Except this time it's gonna be even more pro-EU, even more liberal and even harsher on labour if he wins. His government will also most probably include many people from the current government who have 'unofficially' left the Socialist Party to join him. I'm almost sure of that.

    I also highly disagree with the experienced part, all of his reforms during his term as Minister have failed and he (and others) has made the already insanely rich corporations even wealthier. I don't like careers in politics since these people don't work a day of their lives, usually, but Macron comes from wealthy banks and most probably intends to rule the country like a CEO.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    I don't know much about these candidates. But I do wonder about the "harsher on labour" aspect you mentioned. Feel free to tell my uninformed ass if I'm spouting nonsense. But in the state France's economy is in, is Mélenchon's plan of a 32 hour workweek smart or not? And I often wonder about the unions' vast power in France. Often I hear about yet another strike, and the call for an even lower pension age and a shorter workweek, and my first thought (admittedly based on little knowledge) is "you're grinding your own country to a halt and your economy will never improve in this way". On the other hand, if everyone works fewer hours in a week with the same amount of work needing to be done, more people can be employed. As I said, I can't claim to have studied this in depth and am happy to be corrected and informed.

    EDIT: maybe there are also a lot of strikes going on for valid reasons in France. But one strike I remember is the Air France one, where the pilots were on strike because they wanted to move more KLM/Air France (partner companies) flights from Schiphol to Charles de Gaulle airport. Is that really a valid reason to strike? Those are the kind of strikes where my first thought is the aforementioned one.
    Last edited by Harvester; 25th Apr 2017 at 08:15.

  11. #86
    my thoughts (in French).

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    People who say they're Leftists and vote for Macron are lying to themselves, especially with this ultra-liberal Right wing economic program of his.
    The only thing worse than liberals is those ULTRA LIBERALS, am I rite?

    Freedom is bad enough, but ultra freedom?!

    <serious>Some people deserve to be ruled by Nazis</serious>

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Warning: there are two definitions of the word liberal. One concerns ethics, where a liberal is usually pro-choice, pro women's rights, pro gay marriage, etc. The other one concerns economics, where liberal usually means leaving as much as possible to the free market, with few government regulations. In America everyone saying liberal means the ethical definition, while in the Netherlands and maybe France as well, the word liberal is usually spoken in economic context. Maybe skacky means the latter as well. Dutch liberalism is more complex than just pushing for a free market (basically liberals push for maximum freedom for an individual to deploy themselves in all manners of life*), but that aspect is the first thing that comes to mind for many people when they hear the word liberal.

    * but if you can't manage to support yourself, fuck you, according to some liberals

    Final edit: the largest party in the Netherlands is the VVD. They're being called liberal. The closest UK equivalent are the Tories, which are being called conservative. Confusing, right?
    Last edited by Harvester; 25th Apr 2017 at 08:59.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I'd very much assume this to be the case. In Germany and Switzerland, the Liberal parties are very much free-market fundamentalists. Equating liberalism in a European context with "ooh, freedom" is uninformed at best.

  15. #90
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Liberals in the Continental sense are (edit: classically, it could be they've been transformed) free market, cosmopolitan, emphasis on intitutions and mulitlateralism. In France, the intellectual roots are Raymond Aron and John Monnet. In the US it'd be the architects of the UN, Marshall Plan, Bretton Woods, etc.

    They're not like anarcho-capitalists, or not even US Libertarians who are anti-institutions and more anarchic, and they're not cultural conservatives like Catholic or Religious Right parties. In the UK (and classically in the US) the liberal equivalents are like the Continental version but you'd add emphasis on freedom of speech and conscience (sometimes LGBT rights, etc), that kind of "freedom".

    The US has lost touch with that form of classic liberalism. In the Cold War period it was a shared platform for Reps and Dems that ebbed and flowed. Bush I was the last major representative in the US, and Clinton I to an extent (Clinton II naturally leans that way, but would have been under serious pressure to drop a lot of it). Tony Blair in the UK definitely. In France, Sarkozy afaik. Macron formally fits the profile on paper.

    They're all, I gather, quite unpopular in our populist era that distrusts multilateralism and experts in institutions as smug know-it-alls.
    Last edited by demagogue; 25th Apr 2017 at 09:35.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    I feel Dutch liberals have lost touch with the classic liberalism ideology as well. Mark Rutte, our prime minister, is pretty much the opposite of someone driven by ideological ideals. His party mainly espouses people being asked to fend for themselves, with neither many obstacles nor fallbacks. If you can make it, great. If you can't, get lost, we don't care that you have to live in poverty. The social liberal party, D66 (comparable to the Lib Dems in the UK) at least supports measures to help those who can't make it, while still striving for as much personal freedom as possible.

    Edit: as environmental policies are concerned, according to the VVD, nothing can stand in the way of the ability for individuals and companies to do whatever the hell they want. Environmentally friendly things happen only when they're profitable.
    Last edited by Harvester; 25th Apr 2017 at 10:02.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    I don't know much about these candidates. But I do wonder about the "harsher on labour" aspect you mentioned. Feel free to tell my uninformed ass if I'm spouting nonsense. But in the state France's economy is in, is Mélenchon's plan of a 32 hour workweek smart or not? And I often wonder about the unions' vast power in France. Often I hear about yet another strike, and the call for an even lower pension age and a shorter workweek, and my first thought (admittedly based on little knowledge) is "you're grinding your own country to a halt and your economy will never improve in this way". On the other hand, if everyone works fewer hours in a week with the same amount of work needing to be done, more people can be employed. As I said, I can't claim to have studied this in depth and am happy to be corrected and informed.
    Of course a 32 hour work week is not a smart plan. Neither is Hamon's proposal to tax automation. Making policies that intentionally reduce the productivity of your workforce is economic suicide. A drop in productivity will drive jobs out of the country, making the unemployment problem worse, not better.

    It's not as simple as having more people working fewer hours each, with the sum total of hours remaining the same, because the cost of labor doesn't fall in proportion with the length of the work week.

    Now if you could get the whole world to go along with a 32 hour work week, or at least the whole 1st world, then it would be an interesting idea. But making these kinds of policy changes unilaterally is self-defeating.

  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    It didn't appear smart to me either. But I didn't phrase my opinion with too much confidence, because I'm pretty much a layman when it comes to these issues and French politics.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Location: Montpellier, France
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    I don't know much about these candidates. But I do wonder about the "harsher on labour" aspect you mentioned. Feel free to tell my uninformed ass if I'm spouting nonsense. But in the state France's economy is in, is Mélenchon's plan of a 32 hour workweek smart or not? And I often wonder about the unions' vast power in France. Often I hear about yet another strike, and the call for an even lower pension age and a shorter workweek, and my first thought (admittedly based on little knowledge) is "you're grinding your own country to a halt and your economy will never improve in this way". On the other hand, if everyone works fewer hours in a week with the same amount of work needing to be done, more people can be employed. As I said, I can't claim to have studied this in depth and am happy to be corrected and informed.
    The 32 hours per week was an idea, but not a concrete proposition of his. He wanted to have the regular 35 hours like they were when they were adopted. Mélenchon's goal was to kick the country in the butt, for lack of a better expression, by making labour more attractive to average Joes and having a way more stern stance towards firms and corporations than the others, firms and corporations that have received millions to hire people — with no actual obligation of hiring people, if you can believe it, that the current government graciously gave them on a silver platter during these years. Some of these don't even pay taxes. The current government was more flexible and more generous with these people than the previous one under Sarkozy, which was as Right wing as they come. The strikes are usually blown out of proportions, there aren't that many and most of them are easily appeased and don't last long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    EDIT: maybe there are also a lot of strikes going on for valid reasons in France. But one strike I remember is the Air France one, where the pilots were on strike because they wanted to move more KLM/Air France (partner companies) flights from Schiphol to Charles de Gaulle airport. Is that really a valid reason to strike? Those are the kind of strikes where my first thought is the aforementioned one.
    No, that's not a valid reason to strike and pretty much everyone was disgusted the pilots went on strike. These people are what we call "les nantis" in France, basically very wealthy people who think they don't have enough privileges/money somehow and abuse the system to the detriment of other smaller workers. There were several strikes in Air France these past few years and the only one that had any noticeable effect on the government was the pilots'.

    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    The only thing worse than liberals is those ULTRA LIBERALS, am I rite?

    Freedom is bad enough, but ultra freedom?!

    Some people deserve to be ruled by Nazis
    It would be wise to know what I'm talking about before you try to be witty. If you had read my posts you would've known I'm using liberal with its European definition, unless you believe unruly Capitalism, profit at the expense of ecology and power belonging to a few aristocrats who don't care if the plebs die en masse tomorrow are freedom.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by montag View Post
    1.Wow, really? Thanks for your input,
    2. who did you vote for?
    3.Did you support your own country, or did you run away?
    1 you are welcomed
    2. gary J. after Sanders sold out.
    3. I have a DD214. is that what you meant?

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    GREAT! NOW I'M DEPRESSED! I'M GONNA GET DRUNK AND PLAY SOME VIDEOGAMES!

    1.FUCK ALL YALL!

    2....and yes, I realize that, as a moderator, I should probably do my duty, and move all of JK's stuff into the Trump Dump where it's more topically appropriate. But I'm gonna get drunk. Can't do it right now.
    1. $20, no one rides for free.

    2. again, apologies...... still love you, I'll stick to cheeto hitlers thread.

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by skacky View Post
    It would be wise to know what I'm talking about before you try to be witty. If you had read my posts you would've known I'm using liberal with its European definition, unless you believe unruly Capitalism, profit at the expense of ecology and power belonging to a few aristocrats who don't care if the plebs die en masse tomorrow are freedom.
    I am also using liberal with its European definition.

    I'm not one of these strange pseudoliberals who believes a person should be free to do whatever they want with their own bodies, but not with their own money.

    Market-oriented reforms in France are long, long overdue.

    Indeed, perhaps if British taxes hadn't been used to prop up failing French farmers for the past few decades, Britain might still be in the European Union. Just a thought.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Thanks for the clarification, skacky. The Dutch news doesn't tell me everything. For example, the 32 hour workweek was described as an actual proposition of Mélenchon. And I've seen Mélenchon framed as an 'extreme left' candidate on some Dutch news website.

    Good to hear the pilots' strike was seen as an unreasonable outlier in France as well.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: France (Saint-Gobain)
    I am in favor for a Federal Europe, united we're stronger and happier.

  25. #100
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Indeed, perhaps if British taxes hadn't been used to prop up failing French farmers for the past few decades, Britain might still be in the European Union. Just a thought.
    Well, officially you all still are, and may yet still be, depending on who does what when and why.

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