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Thread: Manchester Terrorist Attack

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I'm not really up to date with all the terrorisms, but how many have really been proven to been non-immigration (at least the explodey ones)?
    The question should be: how many terrorist attacks in Europe in the recent years were committed by immigrants? Virtually none. The terrorists were either born in Europe or living there for decades. So yes, you're spreading misinformation.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    Let me explain how your post came across:

    "Let's send many of THOSE 12-year old girls to their deaths in a horrific warzone, because there's a chance that decades from now their children might kill a few of THESE 12-year old girls."

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    The terrorists were either born in Europe or living there for decades.
    Don't you see how that's even worse? It means we already have millions of potential ticking time bombs living in Europe. And even if the original colonists are not immediately violent, their children or grandchildren will murder you later.

    Doesn't it make sense to close the gates now, and stop all immigration from "time-bomb" nations?

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    Let's send many of THOSE 12-year old girls to their deaths in a horrific warzone, because there's a chance that decades from now their children might kill a few of THESE 12-year old girls.
    I'm proposing to send muslims back to their own homes. If their home is a war zone, they need to take it up with their fellow muslims. Britain's government has a responsibility to protect the people of Britain, not to rescue every foreign person in the world from a bad home situation. Plus by bringing them here, they will bring their ethnic/tribal conflicts (Sunni versus Shia etc), and Europeans will be caught in those conflicts too.


    Also, if you're so concerned about children being in war zones...seems like the kids at that concert the other night were already in a war zone. The British government made Manchester a war zone by inviting the enemy inside the gates.
    Last edited by Krush; 24th May 2017 at 14:59.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by SlyFoxx View Post
    People get out of school (with kilo bucks of debt) go buy a new car (more kilo bucks of debt) and then park it in the driveway of their new house (really more kilo bucks of debt) and wonder why the fuck they're not wining. Hey stupid! You might look good but you've got nothing left at the end of the month because Wells Fargo had a better plan for your money than you...'cause see...THEY'VE got it all! But it took two to tango. Greed on both parties part. Debt is the most successfully marketed product in the world today. So learn to delay pleasure and get it when you can afford it.
    Living without debt is great, but not realistic for most people. In order to get into a career that pays a middle class income, a bachelor's degree is becoming a necessity. To get into a career that pays an upper middle class income, a master's or doctorate is often necessary. So almost everybody who wants to avoid a life of lower class wage slavery is going to start out with student debt. Unless your parents are rich and pay your way. Education can be a great investment or a terrible investment. You'd be nuts to pay $70k/year to attend a private college as a theater arts major, but some people do that.

    A car is never an investment. But unless you're living and working within a large city with good public transportation, you need a car. It doesn't have to be a fancy car, or a new car, just safe & reliable transportation. Maybe you're lucky and you get a free car handed down by your parents or grandparents. If not, you're probably looking at a car loan, because if you're in school or fresh out of school, you don't have any savings. The sooner you can get yourself out of that car loan, the better. When auto loans are cheap, like they have been in recent years, a lot of people act like it's free money and buy bigger and nicer cars than they ought to. Luxury SUVs are common around here. They are very expensive, short lived toys.

    Most people I know purchased a suburban house after they got married and were getting ready to have kids. Most waited until their student loan debt was paid off before taking on a mortgage. The main reason why they purchased a house is so their kids can grow up in a safe and kid friendly neighborhood, and be in a good public school district if they can afford to. Those are not unreasonable wants. Real estate is usually a pretty safe long term investment, worth borrowing money for, especially when rates are low. I didn't purchase a home until I was 31, and I'm still kicking myself for waiting. Among my friends, the earlier they purchased a home, the better off they are.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by nihilon_traveller View Post
    The question should be: how many terrorist attacks in Europe in the recent years were committed by immigrants? Virtually none. The terrorists were either born in Europe or living there for decades. So yes, you're spreading misinformation.
    Now, now, even if that is technically correct, that is not exactly a key detail. Does living there for a while remove them as being called immigrants? If so, sorry for spreading misinformation from a technicality's point of view, albeit definitely not from a semantic point of view. And that only further shows that even decades of living here didn't teach them any of western culture and its values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    I don't see how America forced Europe to take in millions of migrants. Why are Poland and Hungary different, with their strong fences?
    They are the ones that didn't accept to take it up the ass without questions. Salute to those countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    I keep thinking Islam is going to cross some line that wakes you guys up, but apparently 12 year old girls getting a faceful of hot shrapnel wasn't the line. Oh well, you'll get another chance soon enough.
    Haha, nice one. Well played. That's just asking for verbal abuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    I'm proposing to send muslims back to their own homes. If their home is a war zone, they need to take it up with their fellow muslims. Britain's government has a responsibility to protect the people of Britain, not to rescue every foreign person in the world from a bad home situation. Plus by bringing them here, they will bring their ethnic/tribal conflicts (Sunni versus Shia etc), and Europeans will be caught in those conflicts too.
    Kinda, and preferrably also take away all the weapons that America so diligently gave them. It was America, right? I guess Russia was into that business too though, so I don't remember who's responsible for what there.
    But in all seriousness, with how many millions are in Europe already, sending them all back would be a crazy ordeal. There should be a way to just distinguish crazy radicals from ones that are actually integrating in society (however many there are of those anyway). A magical lie detector. Although maybe radicals have no conscience, so probably an ineffective method.
    Last edited by Thor; 24th May 2017 at 16:10.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    These guys have no answers except for snark and verbal abuse.

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    I'm proposing to send muslims back to their own homes. If their home is a war zone, they need to take it up with their fellow muslims. Britain's government has a responsibility to protect the people of Britain, not to rescue every foreign person in the world from a bad home situation. Plus by bringing them here, they will bring their ethnic/tribal conflicts (Sunni versus Shia etc), and Europeans will be caught in those conflicts too.
    How many terror attacks in the West have been perpetrated by refugees or their offspring? Has there been any at all? You assume every Muslim is a potential terrorist, but I think that's a pretty poor assumption given the number of terrorists vs. the number of Muslims.

    When the IRA was conducting terrorist attacks, did we ban all Irish? Have we banned all Basques?

    Also, if you're so concerned about children being in war zones...seems like the kids at that concert the other night were already in a war zone. The British government made Manchester a war zone by inviting the enemy inside the gates.
    There's a very large difference between an isolated arena bombing that killed 22 and a war that killed 400+ thousand and destroyed cities.

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    These guys have no answers except for snark and verbal abuse.
    That is the general way of the media nowadays. Feels reminiscent of religious zealots from ancient tales. Don't have an argument? Doesn't matter, you have a sharp sword. Or tongue, in this case. It's nice that we don't have to fight with fists and weapons at least. Not yet, anyway.

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    How many terror attacks in the West have been perpetrated by refugees or their offspring?
    As I already addressed above: The fact that many of these attackers are second-generation immigrants means the problem is even worse than we thought. The ones you let in today might have no hatred against the West, but their children will conduct jihad operations decades later.


    You assume every Muslim is a potential terrorist, but I think that's a pretty poor assumption
    When one man can kill 20 and wound dozens, or kill 49 and wound 50 more as in Orlando...or a small group can kill or injure 482 people (Bataclan attacks)...then the risk is just too great. If there is a bowl of 100 candies and they tell you only three are deadly poisoned, how many of them will you eat?


    When the IRA was conducting terrorist attacks, did we ban all Irish?
    Obviously not, but it would have been a reasonable response. Of course half the problem is occupation of other peoples' land, just as in Northern Ireland. I'm not asking muslims to accept westerners' attacks on their lands either. I'm saying we all get out of each others' faces. We don't invade and attack them, and they don't come here and attack us. Sounds like a plan huh?


    There's a very large difference between an isolated arena bombing that killed 22 and a war that killed 400+ thousand and destroyed cities.
    I'm pretty sure the 12 year old girls at the Arianna Grande concert didn't sign off on any bombings of Iraq or Syria, so they shouldn't have to pay for it with their lives. It seems like Islam has decided that we're all responsible for these things, no matter the age, sex or nationality. Collective punishment.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    Don't you see how that's even worse? It means we already have millions of potential ticking time bombs living in Europe. And even if the original colonists are not immediately violent, their children or grandchildren will murder you later.

    Doesn't it make sense to close the gates now, and stop all immigration from "time-bomb" nations?
    That's political racism. That's the same stuff you could hear about Jewish community in Germany in the 1930s. How can you not realize that 99,999% of immigrants' children don't commit terrorist acts?

    edit: Because Polish government's stance on the topic has been mentioned I would also like to say that I live in Poland, I think that we should accept refugees from war-ridden countries, I think that living in multicultural societies is good for the future of humanity and I'm mad at my government for playing on people's fears and bolstering hate.
    Last edited by nihilon_traveller; 24th May 2017 at 16:47.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by nihilon_traveller View Post
    That's political racism. That's the same stuff you could hear about Jewish community in Germany in the 1930s. How can you not realize that 99,999% of immigrants' children don't commit terrorist acts?
    I don't really take any statistics seriously, because it's usually met with different statistics from a different source (or made up statistics of feels) + added verbal abuse, but to counter that very low percent, I'll throw in something like 13% that I saw in some random place, which refers to the european (or a specific country) muslims that think that the terrorism stuff is all cool and good.
    Krush didn't exactly propose to gas all the muslims. Not even the terrorists.
    Additionally, while we may not be racist, many muslims (and jews as well, btw), are. So they can be racist but we can't. On our own turf.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    You know, coming here and reading how Europe totally deserves terror attacks because they aren't discriminating enough against muslims, you have to ask whether these people themselves are aware they are being useful idiots for the terror groups who want to provoke a global religious conflict.

    So, by that logic, to prevent nationalist terror attacks we should ban nationalism and deport all nationalists? To prevent right wing and left wing terrorism we should deport all right and left leaning people? Sure, most nationalists etc won't commit terrorist attacks, but if I you have 20 million candies and 3 of them were poisoned, instead of finding out which ones are poisoned apparently you should deport all the candies regardless of the cost or ill will or more poison candies that it will lead to. Because that makes more sense, somehow, when you live in a fantasy land where differently coloured candies are the source of all your problems and the only cure is a big wall.

  14. #64
    @Thor Also Hitler didn't propose to gas the Jews (moreso, on the eve of the holocaust the nazis were discussing moving the Jews to Madagaskar). It's dehumanizing a group of people (by ethnicity, religion, etc.) that sets the scene for genocide. Muslim communities were part of Europe for centuries. There are 2 billion Muslims on Earth and their religion has hardly anything to do with terrorism, which is a political act. The real Daesh supporters form powerful political agendas in many countries across the globe. Who benefits from terrorist attacks? Certainly not the refugees, and surely not the Muslims currently living in Europe.

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    As I already addressed above: The fact that many of these attackers are second-generation immigrants means the problem is even worse than we thought. The ones you let in today might have no hatred against the West, but their children will conduct jihad operations decades later.
    Again, what evidence do you have that Syrian refugees have conducted terrorist attacks or will in the future?

    Your argument can be summarized as "since some Muslims are terrorists, all Muslims are potentially terrorists," which is failed logic.

    When one man can kill 20 and wound dozens, or kill 49 and wound 50 more as in Orlando...or a small group can kill or injure 482 people (Bataclan attacks)...then the risk is just too great. If there is a bowl of 100 candies and they tell you only three are deadly poisoned, how many of them will you eat?
    The risk of terrorism is vastly overblown by the media and people like you. In the 15.5 years since Sep 11, 2001, the number of American deaths from terrorist attacks is very small. Smaller than the number of people killed by lightning, or from falling out of bed, or from lawnmowers, or from being shot by toddlers. And yet you would ban a quarter of the world's population due to this vanishingly slight risk, which has no connection to the vast, vast majority of Muslims. That is completely irrational.

    I'm pretty sure the 12 year old girls at the Arianna Grande concert didn't sign off on any bombings of Iraq or Syria, so they shouldn't have to pay for it with their lives. It seems like Islam has decided that we're all responsible for these things, no matter the age, sex or nationality. Collective punishment.
    And the 12 year old refugees Pyrian mentioned didn't sign off on any terrorist attacks, so they shouldn't have to pay for it with their lives. Collective punishment is EXACTLY what you are proposing.

    According to your logic, it doesn't matter how many Syrians or other Middle Easterners die, it only matters if a Westerner dies (except for Muslim Westerners I guess), which is a downright sick view. And its contrary to the values that America was founded on.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    Wrong. Not letting armies of middle easterners into our countries is not the same thing as genociding them. We have no obligation to take anyone in, especially when our own people are going to be harmed by taking them in.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    There are no Middle Eastern armies trying to get here.
    There is no evidence-based argument that Syrian refugees are going to harm us.
    We do have a legal obligation to accept refugees.
    We also have a moral obligation to accept refugees, especially since we're over there fighting in their civil war and we are one of the parties causing the refugee crisis.

  18. #68
    Taking a break
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    fuck

    you

    tony
    Does the shoe fit a little too well?

    All that is happening is the trees of your ideology are bearing fruit. Nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by nihilon_traveller View Post
    The question should be: how many terrorist attacks in Europe in the recent years were committed by immigrants? Virtually none. The terrorists were either born in Europe or living there for decades. So yes, you're spreading misinformation.




    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Living without debt is great, but not realistic for most people. In order to get into a career that pays a middle class income, a bachelor's degree is becoming a necessity. To get into a career that pays an upper middle class income, a master's or doctorate is often necessary.
    You guys know how often I harp on trying think outside of the coastal white people in white collar jobs bubble?

    Prime example on display right here.

    counterpoint: https://www.trade-schools.net/articl...out-degree.asp

    Statistics aside, there's even more cash to be made operating independently in those areas. I used to work with a guy who pulled in 200k+ annually owning a plumbing business (shuttered after his business partner had a divorce and quit).

    This is about the most simplistic reading of that period of history possible. There was the Reformation and the numerous wars of religion during this period and none of it was particularly secular. We tend to think of Protestants as the kinder gentler Christianity now, but they were the ones stripping the paint off churches for being too colourful. By our standards they basically represent fundamentalist religious insurgency, with the added bonus of the doctrine being almost roll-your-own for a while there. (although looking at a good chunk of US religion today all of this is less surprising really)
    And the key event that made the rise of Protestants take off?

    It was the King of England making his church pledge allegiance to the King instead of the Pope. My statement glosses over some of the details but is basically correct: one of the key attributes of Protestantism vs. Catholicism was that it tended to be much more under the control of secular nobility and royalty than the Catholic church was, which had its own internal hierarchy that was very frequently at odds with the royalty.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Source this image, please. A load of pins on a map isn't evidence of anything unless you link what it's from and what it represents.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Trance View Post
    Source this image, please. A load of pins on a map isn't evidence of anything unless you link what it's from and what it represents.
    It's probably one of those maps that purport to show refugee and migrant crime rates or something like that. Basically, right wing activists compile lists of news reports where the perpetrator might have been a migrant (for example, mentioned as "dark-skinned" or "southern looking") in an effort to show that there is a crime wave happening. As anyone who has had even cursory experience with crime statistics can tell you, it's a load of BS. They don't even attempt to count people charged with a crime or anything like that, they go by eyewitness reports and sometimes confuse the victims and the perpetrators.

    There has been a small increase in crime rates with the influx of migrants, but it's mostly related to stuff like doing drugs and not paying bus fares: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=2903116

    And even then, the crime rates in Germany are far lower compared to the crime rates in the US: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-...d-States/Crime

  21. #71
    Taking a break
    Registered: Oct 2013
    True. And did you also know that the majority of violent crime in America is concentrated in a half doze9n or so cities? Ones that just *coincidentally* are bastions of progressive politics.

    And well....maybe. I question whether you even live in Europe given your ludicrous claim that none of these attacks were migrants. I lived in Germany for work last summer and there was a new migrant attack literally every week ranging from subway stabbings to some guy who shot up a shopping mall. According to German language TV news the suspect was invariably a "refugee". And as I've mentioned before one of my Arabic friends was accosted by migrants in Italy and let go once they realized he could speak Arabic after which they said they didn't realize he was a Muslim and became friendly.

    Plus, theres this that happened right before the Manchester attack....sure its a coincidence that the police busted up a rape gang where the ringleaders were Pakistani migrants.

    That once incident alone is enough to disprove your claim.

    https://www.google.com/amp/www.daily...-Pakistan.html

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Does the shoe fit a little too well?
    No. There seems to be more room up your capacious ass for it.

    Fuck you for making petty political hay of this dreadful tragedy, you creepy, low-life hack.

    Does that make it easier for you to understand?

  23. #73
    Taking a break
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Or you know...this one where the attacker was a Tunisian migrant.

    Even then it is somewhat in the area of pedantics. Most of these perps have a record of travel to places like Syria and known affiliations.

    Which is....kind of how it works. Even in Afghanistan there were relatively few Pakistani fighters. The usual way this works is that they travel down to train and prepare in the winter and then Summer is the "fighting season" (decently explained: http://www.npr.org/2011/03/18/134652...in-afghanistan).

    There's a reason why most of these attacks occur in late apring and early summer.

  24. #74
    Taking a break
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    No. There seems to be more room up your capacious ass for it.

    Fuck you for making petty political hay of this dreadful tragedy, you creepy, low-life hack.

    Does that make it easier for you to understand?


    No.

    Fuck you for espousing an ideology that GETS PEOPLE KILLED, just because doing so strokes your smug ego.

    Dont you DARE to fucking moralize at me.
    You aren't "compassionate". You arent somehow morally superior. You're just arrogant and self righteous.

  25. #75
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    And well....maybe. I question whether you even live in Europe given your ludicrous claim that none of these attacks were migrants.
    If this is aimed at me, where have I ever said that?

    I'm saying that anecdotes are no substitute for actual crime statistics.
    Last edited by Starker; 24th May 2017 at 23:14.

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