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Thread: Attack on London Bridge!

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    The thing is, the vast majority of Muslims, at least here in the US, have well adapted to our culture. We've millions of them living here natively
    Not in the Milwaukee/Chicago region. Muslims in this region are exactly as Daxim described. Secretive and keep to themselves. I have never had a problem with it, and have befriended most of the ones I see everyday.

    Conversation is *extremely* minimal, as they obviously have their own complete culture, here in America, and again behind closed doors. Then again, the region I live and work in is pretty racist in general so yeah.

    Lotsa slums in the damn big cities, what a shame really.

    The problem is painting the illusion that "the vast majority have well adapted to our culture". That is just not accurate, at least where I live. They have well learned how to live in our country all right, but "adapted to our culture"???

    I dont see that at all.

    WOW, welcome back Daxim!


  2. #102
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    That's anecdotal evidence. It might be true of your particular experiences, but that doesn't make it a universal truth.

    Around here, the handful of Muslims I see are women driving around in big ass SUVs, and buy CDs at the hipster trendy used media store off the interstate. The only reason I can even tell they're Muslims is because they always wear their hijabs, and apply more eyeliner than usual.

    So is my experience more truthful than yours?

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    I dont know why, but that made me laugh.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I still haven't gotten an answer to whether we should we start banning all nationalists because of violent extremist nationalists like Breivik.

    If there has to be a ban on muslims, surely we can't overlook other "sources" of violent extremism.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Daxim View Post
    I'd let anybody in, provided their acting upon religion and ideology does not interfere with the established baseline. Religious freedom is obviously less important than compatibility of culture and values
    Religious freedom is one of the most fundamental freedoms. In a free society, cultural compatibility is a nice thing to have, but it's not something you take away fundamental freedoms to achieve. Besides, the country I live in has always been multicultural and we've assimilated one supposedly incompatible culture after another. We expect immigrants to have respect and tolerance for other cultures, and live by our laws and legal traditions. So no Sharia law for example. If they can do that, they're as compatible as any other culture. The vast majority of Muslims living here don't have any problem with it. And from a practical standpoint we need their help in rooting out the nutjobs.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    You know, by now the point that the majority of muslims living in western countries are perfectly well-adjusted people living normal lives has been reiterated to a ridiculous degree. In my view, that ought to be a salient enough point to defeat the notion of banning all members of that faith from entry into a country because of the actions of a few. Is Krush et al. simply ignoring this point, or have they somehow consistently missed it, or...?

    Is it that you guys don't believe the majority of muslims in western countries, refugees included, are just regular people who want a peaceful spot to live and raise their kids in? Do you not believe that people who move to another country to live there are capable of adjusting to the ways of their new home? Or is it just muslims in particular you consider incapable of that?

  8. #108
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    To play Devil's Advocate for a second, I don't think it's necessarily that they believe all Muslims are evil by default, so much that even one terrorist slipping through a group of 100,000 is one terrorist too many. It's better to ban the whole than to deal with the potential consequences.

    It's somewhat cowardly, and incredibly overkill, but there is a kind of cold logic to it.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    and incredibly overkill
    That reminds me of this:


  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    I know why it made me laugh now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    So is my experience more truthful than yours?
    I dont know Mr. Bubble, you tell me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    the vast majority of Muslims, at least here in the US, have well adapted to our culture.
    Think about it, you got this.


  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    It's somewhat cowardly, and incredibly overkill, but there is a kind of cold logic to it.
    Certainly in the U.S. there are far better ways to save lives, if that's the goal. Instead, the Republicans want to reduce medical care and increase pollution.

  12. #112
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    We expect immigrants to have respect and tolerance for other cultures, and live by our laws and legal traditions. So no Sharia law for example. If they can do that, they're as compatible as any other culture. The vast majority of Muslims living here don't have any problem with it.
    I believe these statistics are true.
    (I've seen the backing numbers somewhere else).



    Now these are numbers taken from muslims all around the world. The muslim immigrants in western countries might be a bit more tolerant than people from Pakistan or Saudi-Arabia. But one thing that we noticed is that after the first wave(s) of muslim immigrants and their children (in the 70s and 80s), the current trend is that muslim immigrants become more and more strict in their religion. Even their children, who were born here. The old idea that if you give people time, educate them, emancipate them (culturally and economically), they will become more enlightened, doesn't seem to be true (anymore).

    And from a practical standpoint we need their help in rooting out the nutjobs.
    You mean fighting ISIS ?

    What I hate is that the discussion is always made black versus white. These are the good guys, these are the bad guys. Nothing in between. No greys. Everybody agrees we should fight ISIS, because they are pure evil. Everybody agrees we shouldn't do anything else, because everyone who is not ISIS is a human being, and thus purely good.

    See that image above.
    I don't want to marry a woman who thinks wives should obey husbands. I don't want friends who think sharia should rule. I don't want a neighbor who think adultery should be punished by stoning. I don't want a colleague who thinks leaving a religion should be punished by death. I don't want such a society around me. Should I try to change their believes ? Good luck with that. Should I move if I'm surrounded by them ? Where to ?

    So everyone who thinks immigration from one country to another country is as good as a universal human right, what is your plan to better the world ? How do you want to stop or get rid of these ideas from the stone-age ? Religious freedom is a universal right, and thus we should let religion do whatever it wants (e.g. spreading their foul/wrong/hurtful ideas) ?
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 8th Jun 2017 at 06:31.

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Um... you can't just take a sample and blow it up to a total number of all the muslims. Statistics just don't work this way -- you are essentially claiming that 1-year-olds support sharia. And the question whether people support death penalty for apostates or adulterers was only asked from the people who said they support sharia, so it should actually be a percentage of a percentage.

    And what you neglected to mention is that according to this poll most muslims want sharia only to apply to muslims. And that most muslims reject violence in the name of Islam, even in places like Afghanistan, which is about as bad a place as it gets.

    Also, it's quite questionable how well a poll like this really reflects people's attitudes rather than safest possible answers in countries where it is criminal to criticise the religion. Even as such, it's mostly a reflection of how people answer in muslim countries, which varies wildly -- for example, in Turkey only 12 percent of muslims support sharia. Not that it's very surprising that muslims in countries where sharia applies support sharia in the first place.

    So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture. Especially if you consider that the people coming to the West are likely to be more liberal in the first place.
    Last edited by Starker; 8th Jun 2017 at 08:25.

  14. #114
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    You can't just take a sample and blow it up to a total number of all the muslims.
    That is exactly how statistics work. You take a smaller sample, and extrapolate it to the bigger numbers.

    Also, it's quite questionable how well a poll like this really reflects people's attitudes rather than safest possible answers in countries where it is criminal to criticise the religion.
    Holy fuck. Talk about bending broken stuff to make it sound like it is right.

    Even as such, it's mostly a reflection of how people answer in muslim countries, which varies wildly -- for example, in Turkey only 12 percent of muslims support sharia. Not that it's very surprising that muslims in countries where sharia applies support sharia in the first place.
    Was I claiming something else ?
    All that I did was post a link to a report that claims that there are large parts of muslims that support political beliefs that I absolutely disagree with.
    And it is not only in countries that already have sharia law.
    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7...muslims-survey
    In my country (nl) there is support for these things amongst muslims too. Not a majority of course, but enough people that we can't just ignore the numbers as if they were zero. And it seems the numbers (absolute and relative) are growing. My question was: what do you suggest we do about that ?

    And what you neglected to mention is that according to this poll most muslims want sharia only to apply to muslims.
    And does that make it less bad ? I support human rights for everyone, not only "my own kind".

    And that most muslims reject violence in the name of Islam, even in places like Afghanistan, which is about as bad a place as it gets.
    Nobody likes it when a market-place is bombed. Is that the violence we are talking about ? Or are we talking about punishment for people who violate laws (stone them, decapitate them, throw them off buildings). I posted a report with numbers. You report with vague claims. Also, if 51% of people (most) reject violence, is it ok if the other 49% do support violence ? Is it ok if 10% support violence ? Is it ok if 1% support violence ?

    So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture.
    I can link zillions of newspaper articles, reports, whatever, how integration of muslims in my country is not without problems. And it is not getting better. I'll give you an example. Amsterdam is supposed to be a tolerant city. In the 60s, 70s, 80s a homosexual couple could walk through the city holding hands. Nowadays that is not possible anymore. If you do that, within a week you will be in the hospital. Homosexuals these days are safer in smaller villages than in our big cities. And no, I am not exaggerating. And the kids/men who do the beating up do not do it because they are brown or poor or whatever. They act violently because of their religion. I do not want that in my country.

    So I asked a question: what do you suggest we should do about limiting hurtful influence of religion on society.
    And your response was: "most muslims are ok".
    That was not my question.
    Thanks for fucking up the discussion. Both sides seem to do it. "All muslims are evil". "Not all muslims are evil". "All muslims are evil". "Not all muslims are evil". That isn't the issue. That isn't the question.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 8th Jun 2017 at 08:29.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    No, statistics don't work this way. You have to take into account demographics, margins of error etc. What your graph shows is about as accurate as if you had just made it up.

    Also, the discussion was not "all muslims are evil" vs "not all muslims are evil". The discussion was "some muslims are evil, therefore we should ban all muslims" vs "that's insane". And then you came here intent to show how a large part of muslims hold backwards views and therefore can't really be integrated into Western society based on a completely bullshit graph that was in turn based on a somewhat questionable poll.
    Last edited by Starker; 8th Jun 2017 at 08:50.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    While I don't share Gryz' antipathy of religion, I have to back him up a little on the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    So nothing in this poll really shows that most muslims have a problem conforming to Western culture.
    That poll aside, Gryz is right that he and I could show you hundreds of articles and reports which show that integration of Muslims in the Netherlands is not going as well as we'd like. It might very well be true that the majority of Muslims don't have a problem conforming to Western culture. But the percentage that does have problems (I'm talking about Dutch Muslims here) is significant, it's not a small minority, and it causes many problems in our society. Whether this happens because of their religion I don't know, it might be more cultural, and lack of opportunities on the job market might also have something to do with it. But it can't be denied or white-washed away. Politicians that marginalize the problem actually play right into the hands of nationalists like Geert Wilders, because people with concerns about the behavior of a not-to-be-trivialized percentage of Dutch Muslims don't feel they're being taken seriously, so they turn to guys like Wilders.

    EDIT:
    Page is in Dutch, but the graph should be clear. It shows the percentage of registered criminal suspects by heritage. This is from the official Dutch Statistics Agency. People from the Netherlands Antilles score the highest, the majority of which are not Muslims. Leads me to suspect that there are more cultural than religious factors at play.
    Last edited by Harvester; 8th Jun 2017 at 09:13.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, I'm certainly not saying that there are no problems with integration in the Netherlands and elsewhere. But I also don't know enough about the Netherlands to be talking about it.

    What I'm taking issue with is the outright misleading stuff, like the above graph or "migrant crime maps" or anecdotes that purport to show what savages muslims really are.

  18. #118
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    You have to take into account demographics, margins of error etc.
    But that report did take polls in several countries. Of course it is not as accurate as we'd like. But those numbers are not meaningless.

    Twelve years ago I spoke to a muslim colleague from Pakistan. He was born and raised there. Went to the US when he was in his early twenties. And became a very successful engineer. (And entrepreneur now, he just sold his startup recently).

    He told me he was scared to see what was happening in Pakistan. His parents and other family were still there. He used to go over quite often. He told me he had a nephew who always was the laughing stock of the family. A bit dumb, almost retarded. Never went to proper school, never got educated, never worked a day in his life. That nephew became a preacher. And people started to ask his advice, and he would tell them what to do. People like that were getting more and more influence in his country. And he didn't like what he was seeing.

    In my current job I don't have Pakistan colleagues. But I do have a few Indian colleagues. And when we talk politics, their biggest concern is the growing influence of Islam in India. Historically the fight was India vs Pakistan. But now they start to worry about muslims inside India too. Are they just racists ? Is it surprising that concerns about Islam are popping up all over the world ?

    Islam is a religion that is focused on propagation. It wants to dominate the world. Just like Christianity was before WWII. Christianity did not bring a lot of good to the rest of the world. But since WWII we got them down and quiet. Of course most of Christians were just regular people (my whole family). But Christianity as a political force had a very negative impact on the world. Taking away their power and influence took a lot of effort. And some luck maybe. And looking at the Republicans in the US, we might have to do it over again. Do you think Islam is less threatening, less aggressive ? Do you think we can safely ignore it ?

    And I am not talking about ISIS or terrorist. I'm talking about creeping influence in western society. Where girls get sexually mutilated. Women are pushed to stay at home. Homosexuals are rejected. Ridiculing beliefs from the stone-age now suddenly becomes forbidden or punishable. Science is rejected. You name it. I don't see any positive impact of religion to society (except being the opium of the simple-minded people).

    .... and therefore can't really be integrated into Western society based on a completely bullshit graph that was in turn based on a somewhat questionable poll.
    Well, I believe that integration and enlightenment does not happen by itself, without any effort. In fact, it seems the last 20 years integration and enlightenment is going worse than that it was before. I think before 2000 or so, immigrants did want to integrate, feel at home in their new countries. Even if they planned to go back home some day. But nowadays we see societies inside our own society. And those separate societies move away from ours. Even their kids. Some of them even behave like NL is the enemy and everything here is wrong.

    What do you want to do to improve integration ? Improve life for the common people outside the west ? Enlighten humanity ? Or do you think everything is OK as it is today, and we don't need to do anything ?
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 8th Jun 2017 at 09:32.

  19. #119
    And a lot of people aren't even in the US aren't even trying to PRETEND to have any interest with refugee/immigrant integration in the culture.

    On one hand you've got professional agitators who openly advocate Mexican annexation of the SouthWest United States, and then on others you have people doing shit like this:



    Although I've never quite understood how bringing people over to work for 0.25c an hour on a Koch Brother's farm, in slavery like conditions is somehow considered "compassion".....yet most American Democrats seem to think it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    No, statistics don't work this way. You have to take into account demographics, margins of error etc. What your graph shows is about as accurate as if you had just made it up.

    Also, the discussion was not "all muslims are evil" vs "not all muslims are evil". The discussion was "some muslims are evil, therefore we should ban all muslims" vs "that's insane". And then you came here intent to show how a large part of muslims hold backwards views and therefore can't really be integrated into Western society based on a completely bullshit graph that was in turn based on a somewhat questionable poll.
    Even then people aren't going to grasp that nuance.

    Here's a hypothetical (kinda) question: Do you think that the type of Christianity practiced by an urban Catholic is even remotely similar to the type of Christianity practiced by.....let's say a member of Westboro Baptist church from Montana?


    Of course not. Why does everyone here seem to think that the same demarcation doesn't exist between western Muslims, urban/developed muslim areas, rural muslim areas, and muslim nations that still have a tribal/warrior culture?

    I mean there's still Christian sects in rural Africa that burn witches FFS and I highly doubt anyone here would have any reaction other to condemn their hateful bigotry. So why do we tolerate shit like honor killings that are based on a questionable at best, highly literalist interpretation of Islam?

    Islam is a religion that is focused on propagation. It wants to dominate the world. Just like Christianity was before WWII. Christianity did not bring a lot of good to the rest of the world. But since WWII we got them down and quiet. That took a lot of effort. And some luck maybe. Do you think Islam is less threatening, less aggressive ? Do you think we can safely ignore it ?
    That happened because there was a lot of pressure on the crazier elements of Christianity to pipe down. There largely isn't such pressure on Islam because most of the political and media establishment rush to defend it from any negative conception that people may have, even doing such crazy shit as to stage photoshoots and refer to attackers only as "bearded men" hoping nobody actually reads into the story.

    Does anyone think that moderation is even possible with that dynamic of trying to rationalize on their behalf going on? And as a sidenote since WHEN did the progressive movement start loving organized religion?

    That's anecdotal evidence. It might be true of your particular experiences, but that doesn't make it a universal truth.

    Around here, the handful of Muslims I see are women driving around in big ass SUVs, and buy CDs at the hipster trendy used media store off the interstate. The only reason I can even tell they're Muslims is because they always wear their hijabs, and apply more eyeliner than usual.

    So is my experience more truthful than yours?
    Well....since you're an American liberal and your "truth" isn't "hateful" or "bigoted" then obviously yes.

    Note one specific aspect of what you're talking bout "the hispter trendy used media store". Do you think that same social dynamic exists in areas where anything or anybody associated with "hipster" would get their asses kicked such as low-income Detroit neighborhoods?



    Twelve years ago I spoke to a muslim colleague from Pakistan. He was born and raised there. Went to the US when he was in his early twenties. And became a very successful engineer. (And entrepreneur now, he just sold his startup recently).

    In my current job I don't have Pakistan colleagues. But I do have a few Indian colleagues. And when we talk politics, their biggest concern is the growing influence of Islam in India. Historically the fight was India vs Pakistan. But now they start to worry about muslims inside India too. Are they just racists ? Is it surprising that concerns about Islam are popping up all over the world ?
    That doesn't even begin to describe the half of it in that part of the world.

    Here's a few of the crazy things that happened while I was on the other side of the border, not too far away...and in a Pashtun region which to many of the locals is much more the same "nation" than the official government borders are:

    - Police deputy was relieved for taking boys from a local village into his checkpoint and raping them.

    - A man in one village shot his father. He claimed to have been justified because his father owed him money and hadn't paid him back.

    - The local insurgents Blew up a group of kids. This was not an accident, this was to set a trap for the local "police" in that village (just a village militia given uniforms so other people could know who they were) When they went to help the kids more bombs went off.

    - A favorite kid's pasttime is throwing rocks at passing vehicles. One day some old man was sitting in the ANP's jail cell. It turned out that he'd been driving past a village near the Kandahar river when some kids threw rocks at his pickup truck and put a crack on his windshield. He got out of the car, chased them down, and beat them within an inch of their life.

    - And of course multiple examples of dudes fucking little boys and goats.

    - Numbers don't count for much. Literally every single report we got from the local forces multiplied the actual number of Taliban involved from 10-100x.


    And that's just a few examples, and they are not out of the ordinary.....in fact they're rather tame compared to what some of the other guys in my brigade saw at other teams in the region.



    Anyways point is, those of you who think you who have only lived in Western Europe/America and think you have a clue what you're talking about when you discuss what Muslim countries are like or what the culture of "refugees" really don't. I spent a whole year living over their closely immersed in that culture and I don't even understand much more than the general feel of it being an extremely violent, very proud, highly tribal warrior culture. Almost all of the specific tribal/clan undertones to what drives daily events there escapes me.

    If you aren't from the region you don't have a chance in hell of understanding it.... My advice to anyone here trying to inform themself about life in any similar region is to completely ignore the musings of people who haven't ever been there, take those of people who have spent a significant time there with a grain of salt, and recognize that almost everything you hear from a local will be coated with layer of saving face for themselves and their tribe. Only expect accuracy if you're talking to someone who is native from the area who in turn is talking about a person or group that they don't have any family ties to.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 8th Jun 2017 at 09:49.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    But that report did take polls in several countries. Of course it is not as accurate as we'd like. But those numbers are not meaningless.
    But they are meaningless. Or do you really think newborn children support sharia? And what about the percentages of the people who support death penalty being artificially inflated?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    What do you want to do to improve integration ? Improve life for the common people outside the west ? Enlighten humanity ? Or do you think everything is OK as it is today, and we don't need to do anything ?
    I don't know how to improve integration, but I sure as hell know what makes it worse, and that's singling out groups of people and portraying them as the enemy.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    But one thing that we noticed is that after the first wave(s) of muslim immigrants and their children (in the 70s and 80s), the current trend is that muslim immigrants become more and more strict in their religion. Even their children, who were born here. The old idea that if you give people time, educate them, emancipate them (culturally and economically), they will become more enlightened, doesn't seem to be true (anymore).
    That is true. There is a trend worldwide where stricter forms of Islam are growing, and that's happening at least to some extent in every country. However, I think we tend to encourage this by treating them like second class citizens.

    You mean fighting ISIS ?
    No. I meant help in trying to root out homegrown extremism. I want Muslim parents to teach their children well, watch over them, keep them away from militant Islamic ideology, be good citizen role models. I want American Muslims to call out extremism when they see it and not amplify the voice of extremists. Be proud to be Americans. Stuff like that. Ostracizing and scapegoating our Muslim populations and showing prejudice against them just encourages them to isolate themselves, turn inward, put their religious identity above their national identity, and consider embracing pan-Islamism.

    So everyone who thinks immigration from one country to another country is as good as a universal human right, what is your plan to better the world?
    I generally favor having the freedom to migrate, but I'm not an open borders guy. I believe that the rate of immigration and the qualifications for immigration need to be regulated, because rapid waves of mass migration have led to instability. However, there should be no religion test in considering who we accept.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Let's see, what's in that chart. Religious law over secular law, suppression of women's rights, and traditional marriage. Sheesh, throw in tax cuts for the rich and that's the Republican party platform.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    Anyways point is, those of you who think you who have only lived in Western Europe/America and think you have a clue what you're talking about when you discuss what Muslim countries are like or what the culture of "refugees" really don't. I spent a whole year living over their closely immersed in that culture and I don't even understand much more than the general feel of it being an extremely violent, very proud, highly tribal warrior culture. Almost all of the specific tribal/clan undertones to what drives daily events there escapes me.
    You were in a place that was a war zone for about 3 decades before you got there and had been most recently ruled by the Taliban. Did you expect it to be a garden spot?

    Don't think that it's representative of all majority Muslim countries, or even the Middle East. There's a lot of cultural variation across the region.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    And, honestly, given how consistently and how often we've seen him get his own presented evidence on a bevy of different subjects wrong, I don't trust Tony to have an objective and accurate picture of the people he met over there either. Despite him having been over there while I haven't (which I will add that I've never actually seen proof of, but will give him the benefit of the doubt), to me, I don't consider him an authority on native muslims. He's been shown to be wrong too often for me to trust what he says.

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    You guys keep saying ISIS is the problem. I still don't understand how a European government can look at a huge mass of migrants such as this: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...fugees-photos/

    and pick out the ISIS members, especially if the other 70,000 people in the swarm can't or won't point out the radical ones. Plus as I've said before even if all of these were great people, some of their children are going to grow up and murder you.

    You guys keep saying there is no uncontrolled migration, that all these folks are carefully vetted. I have seen no evidence of this. Plus some of their countries don't have paper trials to "vet" or they will have fake papers (especially if they are part of ISIS).
    Last edited by Krush; 8th Jun 2017 at 13:17.

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