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Thread: What to Do About Crap High Res Texture Mods?

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    Quote Originally Posted by Yandros View Post
    Larry, patches are usually handled via DML files, not fm.cfg. I don't know if a disallow_mod config variable could be done such that it prevented mods but allowed DMLs.
    I was thinking that the fm.cfg file should point to the dml files. They are FM specific, and so shouldn't be identified with the mods.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    But the FM wouldn't know which DML files would exist at the time of publishing. The whole idea is that a DML could fix problems in a published FM, as a patch, so users wouldn't have to re-download the entire patched version and restart their game.

  3. #28
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    Is it really necessary to use Tafferpatcher? I simply installed Thief 2 and then I unzipped each version of NewDark into my Thief 2 folder as they were released. The only mod I added was the water texture. Everything else is stock and I never have any issues with gameplay or how a mission looks.
    that's a bit too much for a lot of people. also, the fixed resources and hires skies are quite nice to have, and there is no other user friendly way of getting those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    So, let me get this straight: the fan patch for Thief 2 installs a non-canon texture mod by default?
    And also, possibly (needs confirmation) places it into an uber_mod_path so it it overrides all other resources from FMs?
    no, NTEX is deselected by default, whoever has it loaded selected it by choice. also yeah, only mod paths are used.

    did someone (apart from myself) try to contact DJ Riff?
    Last edited by voodoo47; 3rd Aug 2017 at 16:31.

  4. #29
    Desperately dodgy geezer
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: The Wailing Keep
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    no, NTEX is deselected by default, whoever has it loaded selected it by choice. also yeah, only mod paths are used.
    Well that kind of changes the dialogue here a bit then, at least with respect to TP and DJ Riff. If no mods are selected by default, then there's really not much else we can do aside from warn people in big red letters in the readme (and the release thread which will get more traction probably) to disable all mods before playing the mission.

    There's an old truism in software development regarding UI design - you can and should do only so much to try and save users from themselves.

  5. #30
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    pretty much.

    still, kicking NTEX from the patcher completely (and adding a bunch of other tweaks as suggested earlier) probably is a good idea, so if someone knows how to get hold of DJ Riff.. seems like he hasn't been around since the last TP release.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    So, then, the problem is that Larry used a non-standard install of TafferPatcher, and that's what caused problems with his FM?

    It's still likely others have done the same.
    Last edited by Nameless Voice; 3rd Aug 2017 at 18:52.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    Not that I used a non-standard install. I used a non-default install, but still a standard install. I wanted to test and see. And I saw and was horrified.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Portland, OR
    Sorry to pipe up, but wasn't there a community driven project to replace the cannon textures with HD versions 1:1? I wonder what happen to that.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    That's the EP2 that NV mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    But the FM wouldn't know which DML files would exist at the time of publishing. The whole idea is that a DML could fix problems in a published FM, as a patch, so users wouldn't have to re-download the entire patched version and restart their game.
    So how does the game know which DML files go with which FM? Something has to tell it. I would think that if a user is installing a DML for a fan mission that there would be some sort of installation process which indicates that the FM has DMLs to use. Would that not be part of the FM's configuration? Hence fm.cfg getting a mention.

  10. #35
    Desperately dodgy geezer
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: The Wailing Keep
    Over in the FM forum, Unna has created DML patches to fix tons of old FMs which are broken under NewDark. She just puts it in a file named the same as the .mis file (miss17.mis.dml I believe is the correct format) and NewDark knows to apply the DML when loading that mission. I assume that's all documented in the NewDark docs.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    How does it know that miss17.mis for one FM uses miss17.mis.dml and another miss17.mis from another FM doesn't? What if both need a miss17.mis.dml but different ones? Somehow they have to be associated with specific FMs or it won't work. I don't know how it is done. It just seemed sensible that the file which is supposed to have FM specific configuration information might be involved. In any event, someone needs to muck about and install the dml to something somewhere. In any event, it shouldn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread: mods and how FM authors can keep them from getting applied to their missions.

    NV brought dmls into the question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    Allowing the FM selector to disallow mods is no solution either. That has its own set of problems, including not being able to make patches for FMs, let alone a lot of annoyed players forced to play with ugly, low-res original objects just to preserve the author's "artistic vision".
    I don't see how preventing mods hampers dml patching. Those are totally different things, no?

  12. #37
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    dmls need to be placed in a modpath (or game root, or loadpath, but those two will only load for OMs), so a FM that would deny modpath loading would kill any custom dml stuff one could have there. which is not a big deal really, as I doubt too many people experiment with dml stuff, but one way or another, the best thing to do about the whole NTEX vs FMs situation is to go lowtech, and just slap warnings about unsanctioned texture packs all over. the amount of people that refuse to read and install NTEX at the same time and then cry on forums should be manageable.
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryG View Post
    How does it know that miss17.mis for one FM uses miss17.mis.dml and another miss17.mis from another FM doesn't? What if both need a miss17.mis.dml but different ones?
    the easiest thing to do is to stick the dml into the root folder of its FM, that means it will only be activated once the FM is launched. if you want to get smart, you can use fingerprinting, making the dml check for various qvars and objects, and it will only activate if everything matches then. I have already played around a bit and it seems like including a FM dml repository with the patcher(s) is doable, making things convenient on the FM side. I actually shared an example awhile ago.. somewhere.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    NewDarkLoader allows you to have a store of dmls (and replacement files, e.g. fixed textures, strings files with fixed typos, bugfixed missions etc) which get copied into the installed FM's folder after installation.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    So, can NewDarkLoader read a fm.cfg file for a configuration variable and display a warning about using mods with that FM and then let the user choose whether or not to install the mods when playing the FM?

    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo47 View Post
    the easiest thing to do is to stick the dml into the root folder of its FM, that means it will only be activated once the FM is launched. if you want to get smart, you can use fingerprinting, making the dml check for various qvars and objects, and it will only activate if everything matches then. I have already played around a bit and it seems like including a FM dml repository with the patcher(s) is doable, making things convenient on the FM side. I actually shared an example awhile ago.. somewhere.
    So folk would have to muck about with the zip and add the dml to the root of the zip, to keep miss17.mis for one FM separate from the miss17.mis for another. In which case, what does that have to do with mods? Nothing that I can see. Nor do I see how editing a zip to include a dml is significantly easier or better than editing a zip to include an updated mis file. I think from what you have said that the dml issue is a bit of a red herring and not really relevant to the discussion of the mods.
    Last edited by LarryG; 4th Aug 2017 at 08:26.

  15. #40
    Desperately dodgy geezer
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: The Wailing Keep
    No Larry, they just have to drop the patch DML into the install folder created by FMSel or NDL.

  16. #41
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by R Soul View Post
    NewDarkLoader allows you to have a store of dmls (and replacement files, e.g. fixed textures, strings files with fixed typos, bugfixed missions etc) which get copied into the installed FM's folder after installation.
    that probably is the best place for a fm fixup dml repository. so let me get this right, as long as the user starts the FM, its dml will be autoloaded?
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryG View Post
    folk would have to muck about with the zip and add the dml to the root of the zip
    not sure what do you mean - what I'm saying there is that the most lowtech thing you can do is download the fm, download its dml patch, activate/unzip the fm with a loader of your choice, and then stick the fixup dml into the root of the fm. and that with proper software, it will be possible to automate this process.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 4th Aug 2017 at 09:24.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    But then you would have to drop it in each time you had the loader uncompress the zip. Surely you don't keep all the FMs around uncompressed?

  18. #43
    Desperately dodgy geezer
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: The Wailing Keep
    But that's how FMSel and NDL work...

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Formby, NW England
    It can be, but NDL will re-apply dml fixes each time an FM is installed (if you use the '.fix' folder as mentioned in its readme). But haven't we become distracted? I thought this thread was about the resource mods that come with the 3rd party game installation programs.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Sep 1999
    Location: Portland, OR
    This is what I was talking about, but it appears to be still WIP. This needs to be done then problem solved. I will pitch in if we want to reinvigorate it again.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    Quote Originally Posted by R Soul View Post
    But haven't we become distracted? I thought this thread was about the resource mods that come with the 3rd party game installation programs.
    I agree. But it includes the use of mods no matter how they got into the installation folder, not just via 3rd party game installers.

    What can be done to detect the use of mods, automate author warnings regarding the use of mods, and automate removal of mods for specific FMs as requested by the player's responses to the warnings? The idea is to make it obvious that there is an issue with playing that specific FM with mod(s) enabled, and to make it simple to disable the mod(s) while playing that FM without affecting the use of mods with any other missions.

    Just putting warnings and instructions in the readme is not enough, I don't think. It is better than nothing, sure, but can we do better?
    Last edited by LarryG; 4th Aug 2017 at 12:03.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    If you run TafferPatcher a second time, can you untick NTEX to remove it from your installation?
    Or can the patcher only be run once?

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    I don't see a help file, so maybe. Here is the announcement page for tafferpatcher. It isn't clear if it does that. I do see the enhanced textures as the defaults, however.

  24. #49
    Zombified
    Registered: Sep 2004
    yes, you can repatch infinite amount of times, picking any component combination desired. this should also correct any inappropriate user edits/modifications.


    also, I have to take back what I said about NTEX not being selected as default - turns out TP remembers the last component combination used when you start it up again, and I have no way of knowing whether I deselected NTEX or not when I ran the patcher for the first time on this particular machine.
    Last edited by voodoo47; 4th Aug 2017 at 12:57.

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: LosAngeles: Between Amusements
    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    If you run TafferPatcher a second time, can you untick NTEX to remove it from your installation?
    Or can the patcher only be run once?
    Regardless of whether you can or not, it would be bloody inconvenient to do so unless you want to leave it that way. It wouldn't a per FM thing.

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