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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Sorry. I don't mind it.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Trump finally and reluctantly read a statement someone apparently wrote for him, like some guilty child being forced to apologise by an embarrassed parent. And while he specifically mentioned the KKK, Neo Nazis and White Supremacists, he still implied they were only a few among many hate groups, leaving open the implication that counter-protestors were equally to blame.

    Given his shoot from the hip twitter reputation and his willingness to instantly respond to the slightest annoyance, the fact that it took him two days to fire a couple of blanks at the problem of his violent followers, speaks volumes more than any combination of 140 characters could.

    Trump failed to instantly condemn claims by the alt-right, that he supports them. When various alt-right leaders seized on his faint damnation of them, and his walking away from questions about them, as proof of Trump's support for their cause, Trump was silent and has yet to refute them.

    Trump's failure to remove two egregious symbols of right wing extremism presently sucking the tax tit in the White House (Steven Bannon and Nazi medal wearing shit-stain Sebastian Gorka) speaks louder than any rally chant, about the moral paucity of Trump and his administration.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    One of the BBC stories noted an old Department of WarDefense propaganda piece is making the rounds. BBC didn't post the whole 18 minute film, and I'd hope most of us in the U.S. have already seen in at least once by now, but in case not:



    One wonders how the filmmakers would react if you told them their work would be just as pertinent seventy years later.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Methinks Trump's latest statement is too little, too late.

    I think the media is amplifying white supremacist voices by quoting them, linking to their Twitter or Facebook, seeking interviews, calling them leaders, etc. On my way to work this morning, I heard a 10 minute segment about a "free speech" rally planned for this weekend in Boston. The reporter spent almost the whole segment going through what I would call fringe characters supposedly invited to be speakers at the rally, and echoed several of their statements. It gives these people notoriety and a chance to make their case in front of a wide audience. I know the media's job is to cover the news, but the way they are going about it seems to be helping to legitimize a fringe movement.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    John Oliver's segment on the issue:


  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    On related news: After Charlottesville, HBO doubles down on their upcoming show “Confederate” that features an alternate reality, in which the South won the civil war: http://www.salon.com/2017/08/15/char...o-confederate/

  7. #32
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I thought this was rather classy.

    Trump tweets cartoon of train hitting CNN reporter

    US President Donald Trump has posted an image of a train hitting a CNN reporter three days after a hit-and-run left one person dead at a far-right rally.
    The post was apparently deleted after 30 minutes. I don't do/understand Twitter so I'm not 100% sure it is a Trump tweet but the BBC is usually vaguely correct.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    On related news: After Charlottesville, HBO doubles down on their upcoming show “Confederate” that features an alternate reality, in which the South won the civil war: http://www.salon.com/2017/08/15/char...o-confederate/
    So what, something like The Man in the High Castle? Could be interesting.

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    It stops being "interesting" when you have Confederate Nazis marching in America at the same time, because then it's distracting from an actual problem by fictionalizing it.

  10. #35
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    If it's anything like Man in the High Castle, the fiction could serve to illustrate the true terrors of the ethos when placed in every day situations.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I think it would be especially interesting in that case, as it would contrast the pro-slavery views of the seceded southern states with the modern but diminished USA. Also, just because something is fictionalised doesn't mean people will dismiss real life problems because of it. In fact, I suspect that the opposite could be the case and the show might shine a spotlight on some of these lingering issues.

  12. #37
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I think most of our lingering issues have now been blown open, and exposed for all the world to see. Honestly, I don't think a simple show about this most contentious of issues will be anything more than white noise backing the screaming, hateful reality we're now facing.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 15th Aug 2017 at 19:50.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I think this HBO show just adds fuel to the fire. There's a risk that it will further glorify the Confederacy in the eyes of white conservative southerners and people with white supremacist leanings. And it's certainly going to offend a whole lot of people and stir the BLM movement. I'm afraid that interpreting the Confederacy and Civil War from a non-historical perspective just encourages people to dream up their own version of history to suit their world view. Best case is that the show is horribly ham fisted and caricatured and offends everybody then goes away. Worst case it gets some people thinking about another civil war.

    In other news, Trump is waffling again, seeming to backtrack to his Saturday assessment of Charlottesville.

    And last night a group of protestors in North Carolina tore down a statue of a Confederate soldier.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I think most of our lingering issues have now been blown open, and exposed for all the world to see. Honestly, I don't think a simple show about this most contentious of issues will be anything more than white noise backing the screaming, hateful reality we're now facing.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P54sP0Nlngg
    Hard to believe that this is in the USA. I hadn't seen the video of that car... And then the stupid self-righteous grin of that guy at the end who is so pleased with himself to say the most disgusting things.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    As predicted, Trump left plenty of wiggle room in his "unequivocal" condemnation of Nazis.

    He took two days to finally and reluctantly read his third party rebuke and less than a day to turn it right around and walk it back to the dugout. Now he's comparing statues of Washington and Lincoln to General Lee, and asking when does the desecration of history stop.

  16. #41
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    And as expected, Trump's reversal of stances has served to embolden the alt-right. David Duke is once again singing his praises.

    I think the biggest mistake a lot of other relatively more moderate people are making is trying to construct this into the usual liberal/conservative divide. It's not. This isn't the usual bickering about tax codes, business regulations, roles of government, and social issues that we constantly fret and argue about in Washington. This is something else entirely. Something well off the reservation.

    Don't assume Antifa as the Liberal Left to the Nazi and Klan Conservative Right. The latter represents an ethos wholly removed from our usual political conversation. And the former? I think of them as something of an antigen.

  17. #42
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I think as well. If he is racist, he's racist in that relatively harmless "wow, Jews sure are good with money, and the black man sure do loves his friend chicken" sorta way. He doesn't hate anybody, but he defines people by their stereotypes. We've seen plenty of evidence of this during his campaign.

    The fact Trump publicly disavowed the Reform Party during the early 2000's when David Duke became associated with them is more proof of that. He's not racist, at least not in the same way the alt-right are.

    But he is a populist, and ran his campaign riding on the fears that define the alt-right. What we've seen over the last three days came about because Donald Trump doesn't like being told what to say or do, and the fact he knows which side his bread is buttered on. Basically, he's stupid, and he's played with fire to our detriment, just so he could be president.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 16th Aug 2017 at 02:39.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Well, he might be inwardly racist in a relatively harmless manner, but he sure doesn't seem to mind the support of people who are outwardly racist in a definitely harmful manner. Correlation?

  19. #44
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I haven't had anything really to post because marching neo-Nazis are literally indefensible and there's not much really to comment on for the situation or other side.

    The history angle is such a red herring to what's really going on that it's almost laughable to think there's a "discussion" about it going on here. (I'm somewhere between putting relics in a museum or just quietly removing legit egregious icons, depending on each case individually. But I don't have a strong opinion and am willing to hear out people that have though it through.)

    And the Antifa crowd, I mean, there's a pool of people left and right that have been itching for a fight this whole time, so of course they were going to jump in. And undoubtedly the alt-right crowd was hoping they would and organized this moron march exactly to invite just that. They all got the drunken brawl that they wanted on that front, which should have been all it amounted too until some dickhead drove his car into people and turned this numbnut fiasco into an actual tragedy.

    What's bewildering is that this should become a national crisis. In the grand scheme of things, it's really not that many people and the kind of thing that makes local news. And Trump couldn't have had an easier task. Just say something about neo-Nazis not representing our values, blah, blah... And everyone feels reaffirmed about the moral highground and specialness of being American, and life goes on. But Trump being Trump he's still going to ruin it, and make sure he clarifies himself in the most divisive way possible. He has a savviness to his idiocity which plays into Bannon-style accellerationism. He knows his tone is going to drive Dems up the wall. And he always manages to leave an out to Reps ... because of the way he phrased his point, it's so easy for Reps to say they refuse to say Antifas aren't bad too, as if that's what the issue comes down to when it's not.

    In normal times, this would feel like a major turning point. But in this context ... next week it's going to be something else and this whole uproar will already be competing for outrage.

  20. #45
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Well, he might be inwardly racist in a relatively harmless manner, but he sure doesn't seem to mind the support of people who are outwardly racist in a definitely harmful manner. Correlation?
    Whether he's racist or not is really beside the point. They're an easily manipulated bunch, and they vote. If this tells us anything about Trump, it's that he lacks and standards or a sense of decency. The end result is all that matters to him.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    demagogue, I think you're underestimating this problem. We've got people coming out of the woodwork all over now to get on the bandwagon. We could be in for a period of nationwide racial and political violence on the order of the late 60s/early 70s.

    Renz, Trump bailed on the Reform party when it was clear he wasn't going to get the nomination. He may not have a long history of racism, but the way he has acted over the last two years is hard to ignore. I tried to rationalize it for a while, but I'm willing to admit now that his critics were right about him all along.
    Last edited by heywood; 16th Aug 2017 at 07:46.

  22. #47
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    The last actual mass demonstration with pillaging and plundering by the racist Right was IIRC the Tulsa riots, 1921. Well I don't know, there could have been some KKK rallies with violence pre-WWII too. The '60s and '70s were anti-Vietnam and black civil rights protests by the Left, and the Left has been mass demonstrating in the 10s of thousands it seems like every other week since Trump took office. If they were going to burn cars and have violence they would have done it already. (Edit: If one of these neo-Nazi types does something truly grotesque like hang a black guy from a tree then I could see mass race rioting in the cities that could get ugly though.)

    The neo-Nazi right I'd still argue is a very small contingent. The Trump-supporting Right is a much larger group, still screwball and enraged with race mixed up in there, but they're not the ones that will be protesting or violent... They're the ones always posting photos of BLM or hippie-looking types demonstrating and saying, see they're out in the streets burning cars instead of being good citizens again. And I remember the Tea Party protests in the Obama years. They could push around a Leftist that got stuck in the middle, but it was a lot of geriatric and chub cases ... granted people so full of disgust, contempt, and hate that their faces screwed into a twist. But looting and violence, I think they'd get winded and need to take a seat even thinking about it. I don't see it.

    I'm not betting on anything and open to being proven wrong. I see a lot of energy being let loose, and it's coming out online and in day to day incidents, but I don't see that yet. Actually, TBH, I haven't seen a single Right friend say a word about Charlotteville yet, or even Trump in it feels like weeks now. They're posting about their vacations, kids, parties, days at the beach, anything but Trump. The desperation to not notice what's going on is almost palpable.

    What I could imagine is if there's an impeachment process after a Dem sweep in 2018 that tries to oust Trump and it gives the perception of "undemocratic" political retribution, then I could see this group getting worked up enough to take to the streets and really mean "take back our country". But I think even a Dem sweep isn't going to give them 2/3 of the Senate, and just a House vote by itself, I mean even Clinton had that much. So I don't see that happening either. But, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised by anything anymore. While I don't see it, anything's possible at this point.
    Last edited by demagogue; 16th Aug 2017 at 09:26.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    If antifa confined themselves to beating up the idiots who were actually waving nazi flags or wearing nazi uniforms (where do they even find these things?), then I wouldn't have too much of a problem with antifa.

    However, antifa attacked everyone at the rally with clubs, even those who just wanted to legally (they had a permit and everything) protest the taking down of historical monuments. So, antifa is a terror group at this point.

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Krush View Post
    (they had a permit and everything)
    Do you 'ave a leesawnce fer your Netzee?

    Oui!

    Oh. Well I guess goose stepping, torchlight parades are OK then!

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Iacon
    but but but antifaa

    the problem right now is the emboldening of the far-right, not the protests in response to it. Nazis scare me more than dumb anarchist kids.

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