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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Okay, that already makes more sense to me, for one thing because it acknowledges that there are more dimensions at play and that this is largely about the political realities of the US (and to some extent all de-facto two-party systems). I'd still argue that you're not going to get a very healthy democracy if everything is conflated into one axis, because at that point you're going to get a useless at best, dangerous at worst, mix of political ideology and tribalism.

  2. #102
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    Jeffersonian Democratic Republicanism is a far far far cry from the post-Reagan 'no taxes for the rich, if you're poor it's your fault' philosophy that is modern American Conservatism. The ideology as a whole is flawed because it's based on a reality that quite simply does not exist any more.
    I think you're right.

    You can't deny the initial success of Reaganite policy. Sometime, you do need to deregulate, cut taxes, and let the market grow on its own without much government interference. The problem is, the Republicans saw just how successful it was at the time, declared Reagan a god among men, and decided to adopt it as their sole ideology, continuing to push his policies even when it hurts us to do so.

    "We'll keep doing it and doing it and doing...and oh shit, we're out of money. Let's dip into Social Security, and bitch about welfare. Oh shit, Social Security is getting to be insolvent. Let's talk about privatizing it! Keep bitching about welfare. We'll get this government so small, we'll be able to drown it in a bathtub, easy!"

  3. #103
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Thirith View Post
    Okay, that already makes more sense to me, for one thing because it acknowledges that there are more dimensions at play and that this is largely about the political realities of the US (and to some extent all de-facto two-party systems). I'd still argue that you're not going to get a very healthy democracy if everything is conflated into one axis, because at that point you're going to get a useless at best, dangerous at worst, mix of political ideology and tribalism.
    Well there is a 2nd axis in there, but it doesn't need to be addressed, since both parties are usually well entrenched in the libertarian side of that axis. We're a classical liberal country as a default.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    If you zoom back a bit, American politics almost is on one axis, a bunch of subfactions floating around and straining against each other over the single question at the heart of it all: what is the role of government in a free society, and what constitutes too much of it. Both of our parties are formed around the two different opinions to that one question.
    While that is an important question I think there are lots of other questions in a modern state that cannot be reduced to that. And yet they are somehow in the US. Which makes finding common ground much harder than it might be in those other questions.

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    I'm not following this garbage as much as you guys, but I heard that when some wanker mowed down a bunch of people and managed to kill 1 of them as well, it got me curious: were they there because of political activism and stuff or were they just there randomly going to a store and not realizing there's a bunch of fuckboys playing civil war and killing each other? Anyone here knows about that? If it's just political activists, then okay, whatever. A stupid cause to potentially give your life for, but that's just me.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I'm not following this garbage as much as you guys, but I heard that when some wanker mowed down a bunch of people and managed to kill 1 of them as well, it got me curious: were they there because of political activism...
    Yeah. A protestor deliberately rammed his car into a group of counter-protestors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    If it's just political activists, then okay, whatever. A stupid cause to potentially give your life for, but that's just me.
    The murder of peaceful protestors is not acceptable behavior. A protest is not supposed to be something one gives one's life for in the first place.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Well there is a 2nd axis in there, but it doesn't need to be addressed, since both parties are usually well entrenched in the libertarian side of that axis. We're a classical liberal country as a default.
    Of which axis? Definitely not the social axis. On the economic axis, you could argue that the New Democrats have made sure that all of the Democratic Presidential candidates since Bill Clinton have leaned toward the classically liberal. But there's always been a social democrat wing of the party. That wing of the party nearly won the nomination last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I'm not following this garbage as much as you guys, but I heard that when some wanker mowed down a bunch of people and managed to kill 1 of them as well, it got me curious: were they there because of political activism and stuff or were they just there randomly going to a store and not realizing there's a bunch of fuckboys playing civil war and killing each other? Anyone here knows about that? If it's just political activists, then okay, whatever. A stupid cause to potentially give your life for, but that's just me.
    Did you really mean to suggest that political activists are expendable, so if they get murdered, so what?

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    On one hand I can see why the taking down of the statue pissed off a lot of people. Many people hate the growing political correctness going on in recent years. HOWEVER, the massing of the neo-nazi groups, racists etc shouting their words of hate, culminating in what happened is not ok, and will never be ok. People like that need to be universally stood against and be shown that they are not welcome anywhere.

    Trump not saying anything for as long as he did, shows (to me) which side he was on, and that's really shameful. To go from Obama to that is just meh.

  9. #109
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Apparently Obama's tweet in response, quoting Mandela, is the 'most liked tweet ever'.

    My understanding is that there was general agreement/consultation about taking down the statue. My understanding is that Lee's descendants think statues/memorials of him would be more appropriately sited in museums.

    I do not understand and cannot comprehend how or why one colour or race or whatever thinks it's better than another. How did that happen?

  10. #110
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Of which axis? Definitely not the social axis.
    Yeah, you have a point. It's hard to say we're indifferent to proactive about social issues when you consider our history with blacks, minorities, gays, and etc.. I think we like to consider ourselves more on the libertarian side of the social axis, but we're really all over the map in that regard.

  11. #111
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I do not understand and cannot comprehend how or why one colour or race or whatever thinks it's better than another. How did that happen?
    Combination of stupidity and people scrabbling for a reason to feel superior to others which doesn't involve them having to make any effort or achieve anything.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Rachel Maddow did a segment on the issue in her usual slow context-building style:



    I really dig these pieces where she starts with something seemingly unrelated and then ties it to current issues.

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Did you really mean to suggest that political activists are expendable, so if they get murdered, so what?
    No, I mean it's a stupid way to die. But with political protests (especially these ones that seem to be carried out by dimwits that don't know anything about anything) I think it's a given that you're potentially endangering yourself.
    Kinda like driving a car I guess (as in there's a chance you're gonna get dead, but probably with a bigger chance), but unnecessary. I guess my lack of respect for such things feeds into this view.

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    Just Governer Terry Mcauliffe staging a violent Klan event with his friend and former Obama Campaign\Occupy Wallstreet organizer Jason Kessler.

    Nothing to see here.

    Whoops, wasn't Mcauliffe the guy who got a 500k bribe from Hillary?

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/clinton...ife-1477266114

    Whoops, isn't he also friends with FBI director Andrew McCabe who helped with the above negotiation?

    Whoops, didn't the Senate just re-open an investigation into the DOJ's behavior:

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-.../477/text?r=48

    which could implicate McCabe and Mcauliffe?

    Nothing to see here.

    It's just a bunch of pro-Trump Nazi's arriving just as criminal charges are about to proceed...

    Maybe they can get Peter Kadzik as a lawyer again if this all turns out to be their fault...

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-1...re-just-one-pr

    Bonus, Imran Awan indictment:

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-4-counts.html
    Last edited by nbohr1more; 17th Aug 2017 at 17:32.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I do not understand and cannot comprehend how or why one colour or race or whatever thinks it's better than another. How did that happen?
    I dont know, but I am *positive* that the worlds biggest most powerful government in all of eternity being led from inception by WHITE people has NOTHING whatsoever to do with it. Yeah, nothing at all. Just a funny little koinkydink.

    This place slays me.

  16. #116
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    This, ladies and gentlemen, is how the conspiratorial mind works. He doesn't have any damning proof of anything, only claims, and uses a series of events, circumstantially related, that can be strung together to form the basis of any theory imaginable in lieu.

    And then GMD shows up.

    "They're all out to get you because they're all out to get you! OPEN YOUR EYES, SHEEPLE!"

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    Another White Nazi vehicle killing in Spain. Copycat of the Charlottesville attack perhaps?

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...KCN1AX1W6?il=0

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Yeah, you have a point. It's hard to say we're indifferent to proactive about social issues when you consider our history with blacks, minorities, gays, and etc.. I think we like to consider ourselves more on the libertarian side of the social axis, but we're really all over the map in that regard.
    We've been debating the limits of freedom of speech and assembly as applied to hate groups, especially when they are intending to intimidate or hoping to incite a riot.
    But I was thinking more of the debates over sexual and gender freedom, abortion, gun rights, drug enforcement and legalization, tobacco, and even sugary drinks.
    I wish the country was more socially libertarian overall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    No, I mean it's a stupid way to die. But with political protests (especially these ones that seem to be carried out by dimwits that don't know anything about anything) I think it's a given that you're potentially endangering yourself.
    Kinda like driving a car I guess (as in there's a chance you're gonna get dead, but probably with a bigger chance), but unnecessary. I guess my lack of respect for such things feeds into this view.
    You don't respect political activism? Geez...
    Anyway, you ought to be able go and protest (or counter-protest) without worrying about getting killed. That should be obvious.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Renzatic.

    Aside from everything else going on here, could you or anyone for that matter, please describe your thoughts and feelings on the fact that America has been led by *white* people from the start. I mean with all of this concern over the various races, surely this cant sit right with you. Just want to hear...

    Go.

  20. #120
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    We've been debating the limits of freedom of speech and assembly as applied to hate groups, especially when they are intending to intimidate or hoping to incite a riot.
    But I was thinking more of the debates over sexual and gender freedom, abortion, gun rights, drug enforcement and legalization, tobacco, and even sugary drinks.
    I wish the country was more socially libertarian overall.
    Strangely enough, I still stand by the notion that the Neo-Nazis and Klan should be allowed to march and protest, provided they do so peacefully. Not because I think they have anything worthwhile to say, but because it's simply not a good idea to allow an ever changing, always malleable western style government to enshrine what constitutes hate speech into law. You have to think of the subject on a slippery slope. Do you really want to set precedence that would allow a group like, say, the Trump administration the means to declare any negative comments against the presidency a direct and actionable threat against the US government as a whole?

    There's a Popehat article (that might've been posted in this thread, I can't remember) that did a excellent job of explaining why we have to tolerate hate speech on the 1st Amendment level. I'll see if I can dig it up again.

    edit: HERE IT IS!

    Quote Originally Posted by Krush
    Another White Nazi vehicle killing in Spain. Copycat of the Charlottesville attack perhaps?
    No, that's not nearly as bad because they're all misunderstood Muslims. They're not as bad as white devil people.

    HURRR HURRR DURR DE DURR HURRR
    Last edited by Renzatic; 17th Aug 2017 at 18:16.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Chicago, IL
    they're all misunderstood Muslims. They're not as bad as white devil people.
    You act as if that's a joke, but that does seem to be your actual views when boiled down.

  22. #122
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Have I ever once said we were being too hard on ISIS? Have I ever once tried to excuse a terrorist attack on here?

    I think the problem, Krush, is that you spend more time railing against the filthy scarecrow waving its broomstick arms about that you've labeled "The Liberal" in your head than you do arguing with anything I or anyone else here has actually said.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 17th Aug 2017 at 19:38.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Oh this is rich.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Ya know, if they get rid of Trump, then all the slimy freaks are gonna start comin' back out, thinking its OK to be gay and to let little boys go into our little daughters bathrooms. FREAKS. Please dont get rid of Trump PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We almost got this country on the right track to nail this shit down, dont do it NOW!!!

    Why cant we just have a normal country.



    All the while, everyone just mulls about blissfully ignorant to the WHITE SUPREMECY that *rules the world*. But lets micro manage some bullshit false flag events, and keep the division in progress.

  25. #125
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You're kinda begging to be banned, aren't you?

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