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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #126
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Since most people aren't violent extremists like Neo-Nazi's or ANTIFA, and since most Americans are concerned with preserving American heritage and history regardless of political stance, one can deduce that a partisan minority is at odds with the majority of Americans who wish to preserve the historical value of these Confederate statues.

    It's good to know that the majority of Americans haven't fallen prey to the emotional insecurity and irrational actions demonstrated by the minority so inflicted.

  2. #127
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Though on that same note, you could probably see why a statue honoring Roger Taney, a Supreme Court justice known for exactly one thing, might tick some people off, right?

  3. #128
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Yes, I can see how some people's emotional insecurity can drive them to destructive actions at the expense historical preservation.

    According to the same logic: Since George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners, therefore we should remove the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial...because some people are ticked-off about that.

  4. #129
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldmoon Dawn View Post
    All the while, everyone just mulls about blissfully ignorant to the WHITE SUPREMECY that *rules the world*. But lets micro manage some bullshit false flag events, and keep the division in progress.
    I've had you on block since the election, but I'm just so fucking baffled by this that I had to respond. So, you think that clashes of Antifa and Black Lives Matter with actual White Supremacists and neo-Nazis are 'false flags' and at the very same time "everyone just mulls about blissfully ignorant to the WHITE SUPREMECY that *rules the world*"? How the fuck does your skull not shatter from the cognitive dissonance of having those two thoughts in your head at the same fucking time?

    You think nobody knows that the United States has a massive fucking problem with institutionalized racism that it's only barely started to even acknowledge? What the fuck do you think Black Lives Matter is about? What the fuck do you think it means when people say 'white privilege'? Is this some attempt at being ironic? Or do you now think that you're woke, and are the only woke person?

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Only stupid people are breeding I tell you.

  6. #131
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Vae View Post
    According to the same logic: Since George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners, therefore we should remove the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial...because some people are ticked-off about that.
    The difference between Washington and Jefferson, and those portrayed in Confederate statue form is that the former group were products of their time, while the latter liked it so much, they rebelled against the country, and fought a war that ended up killing more Americans than WWII.

    I don't want to whitewash our history, but I can understand why some people might find the Beauregard Buford "Darkie Hanger" Johnson Centennial Children's Play Park (you know, the one just down the street from town hall) a little distasteful.

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    The products of their time argument doesn't totally fly for Washington and Jefferson, since abolitionists were common at the time, even among the Founding Fathers. Washington gets points for stipulating in his will that his slaves were to be emancipated once his wife died, as well as provisions for education and employment of the freed slaves.

    Jefferson, on the other hand, was a dick.

    That said: founding a country earns people monuments in that country, no matter what kind of assholes they may have been in life.

    Engaging in a civil war against a country and losing does not earn you a monument (with the possible exception of cases where the winning side later engages in egregious human rights abuses and ultimately collapses under the weight of its own corruption).
    Last edited by Fafhrd; 18th Aug 2017 at 03:25.

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    We don't know how Washington or Jefferson would have leapt if they were alive and working when Fort Sumter fell. Washington and Jefferson kept slaves, but were never confronted with the dilemma of committing treason and waging war in the name of keeping them. Not saying that absolves them, but I'd hesitate to automatically throw them in with the likes of Lee, Forrest, Pickett, Davis, and everyone else who had to choose and make their bed.

  9. #134
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    That said: founding a country earns people monuments in that country, no matter what kind of assholes they may have been in life.
    I see...So that means, by your decree, the founding fathers are immune to desecration regardless of their deeds...yet, if those same deeds are perpetrated by those of American Confederate heritage, which is a fundamental part American history, they are to be removed or destroyed according to those with a minority opinion, as opposed to serving the will of the majority of Americans who wish to preserve these Confederate statues.

  10. #135
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    The question is, how does taking them out of parks and putting them in museums act to destroy history? It's not like we're burning history books, or destroying copies of Ken Burn documentaries. People are still free buy the billion and one movies available on the subject, put battle flag bumper stickers on their cars, and collect all the Civil War memorabilia they can afford.

    Honestly, I could go either way on the issue, and, taken in a vacuum, it really isn't something I feel all that strongly about in general. I can understand why some want to keep them, and I can understand why others want to remove them from public spaces. What I don't understand is how it erases history in any way, especially considering the wealth of information available about the Civil War beyond these statues.

    To boil the whole hoolabaloo down to its bare basics: no one wants to censor anything, but some don't think the confederates deserves a place of honor in our society.

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    To boil the whole hoolabaloo down to its bare basics: no one wants to censor anything, but some don't think the confederates deserves a place of honor in our society.
    Which is a minority opinion.

    In a democracy, the minority opinion should never be allowed to dictate actions which oppose and override the majority sentiment...as this is a corruption of the functionary will of the people.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Just pretend it's the electoral college of opinion.

  13. #138
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Even though that's irrelevant because it's not a presidential election, the margin is wide enough that even if calculated electorally by state, the majority sentiment would remain the same.

  14. #139
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Yeah, well, point is the majority doesn't always win out. Sorry.

  15. #140
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    No need to apologize to me...although, you should be concerned about the repercussions that result from this imbalance.

  16. #141
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Democracy isn't perfect. Striking a balance between protecting the minority without impairing the majority is something democratic societies may grapple with until the sun goes nova. But, like the man said, "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

  17. #142
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    And of course, how many of those people surveyed were influenced by the events in Charlottesville to answer the way they did? A lot of them probably thought, "If we bring more confederate statues down, we'll get more violent clashes and more Nazis marching in the street. Better leave 'em up, just to avoid that headache."

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Actually, it's about ethics in sculpture maintenance.

  19. #144
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Quote Originally Posted by Trance View Post
    And of course, how many of those people surveyed were influenced by the events in Charlottesville to answer the way they did? A lot of them probably thought, "If we bring more confederate statues down, we'll get more violent clashes and more Nazis marching in the street. Better leave 'em up, just to avoid that headache."
    I'm sure the events in Charlottesville influenced people's opinions about it, but I'd wager it was more in the direction of "bring them down".

    Of course, as an outsider I don't wanna speculate too much about how Americans feel about these things. But I gotta ask, was this an issue on most people's minds before Charlottesville? It feels like over the past week a lot of poeple have gone from not having strong feelings about confederate statues to being like "neo nazis want them to stay up? fuck that, let's start toppling this shit!"

  20. #145
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    They've been an issue forever. In the 90s you started to see civil rights statues going up as a kind of counterpoint, and I think some of the first (public) ones started getting moved into museums, which picked up steam in the 2000s. (The confederate flag issue too.) But they've rarely been in the spotlight as much as now, and as such a key symbol, which is just the combination of all the factors involved, white power rally, Trump's statements, the Millennials and hashtag activism.

    BTW, my first reaction is to notice, what a lot in the US aren't appreciating, that almost every country that's ever had a war where the former combatants and their descendants still have to live with each other, ie, practically every country ever, has this same issue of dealing with memory and memorialization, statues and memorials. There's a whole field now devoted to it we call Transitional Justice. People that care about it would do well to read that literature and see how other countries have dealt with the same types of issues, and what are all the considerations involved according to specialists that have thought a lot about it professionally.

  21. #146
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    What I don't understand is how it erases history in any way...
    Oh, it doesn't, but any port in a storm. Liberals are doing it, therefore it must be opposed, preferably with liberal-sounding rationalizations.

  22. #147
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Would an acceptable solution be to keep the statues and just graft an erect brass penis onto the forehead of each one?

  23. #148
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    This is a present day cultural conflict. Historical statues and monuments shouldn't even be involved in this.

    I don't think that transitional justice applies as an excuse now because the civil war was 150 years ago and everyone alive today is several generations removed from anyone who personally experienced it. The Reconstruction was a period of transitional justice. If we're going to say that monuments, memorials, and historical art are fair game for destruction since we're still in a period of post-Civil war transitional justice, then pretty much every society on Earth is in a perpetual transitional justice period and everything is fair game.

    When I saw the mob in North Carolina tearing down the statue of a Confederate soldier, I immediately thought of three other examples in recent history: the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad 2003, the destruction of Lenin statues in Ukraine starting in the 1990s, and demolition of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in 2001. The first was a war-time act and the statue was of a ruthless dictator that was still alive, so I have no qualms about that one. The second occurred in a post-independence transition period, and although I personally didn't want to see them destroyed, I think it's somewhat understandable considering Ukrainians had literally just thrown off communism and emerged from under the thumb of the USSR. Finally, the destruction of the Buddhas was just senseless destruction of historical art because it wasn't politically correct in modernity. By invoking the term "politically correct" here I'm referring to the fact that modern Afghans don't tolerate non-Islamic religions even though the region of Afghanistan was once multi-religious. The Buddhas seemed like the closest analogy to what I saw in North Carolina.

    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now. In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.

  24. #149
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    This bust of Abraham Lincoln, erected by Phil Bloomquist on August 31, 1926, was damaged & burned...



    In the minority partisan opinion, it is justified to destroy historical statues and monuments that some find disagreeable.

    This is just another example of an irrational, emotionally insecure response, that is desecrating American heritage and creating strife as a result of imbalance.

  25. #150
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Vae. You are creating a false equivalence between monuments to national heroes and celebrations of traitors.

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