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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #151
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now.
    I agree. It is Orwellian in nature, and as such, it is a disservice to humanity.

    In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.
    You are correct. The value of these monuments are multi-dimensional, as a service to civilization...As opposed to the incomplete one-dimensional perspective that is being reinforced by partisan propaganda.

  2. #152
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    It's not surprising that there is a counter-reaction. Up here we've had Holocaust memorials being vandalized this week.

    And in other news, apparently Steve Bannon is out of his White House job, but I just read he submitted a resignation back on Aug 7.

  3. #153
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Vae. You are creating a false equivalence between monuments to national heroes and celebrations of traitors.
    One person's hero is another person's traitor. This country was founded by traitors after all.

  4. #154
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Pretty sure the problem aren't the statues themselves but the persistent racism in those areas which they have come to represent. We have statues of Prussian emperors, the Italians hold their ancient Roman ruins in high regard (although Romans held slaves!), etc.
    And it's not a problem. Because no one here is dreaming of bringing back the Prussian emperor and the Italians don't dream of sailing over the Mediterranean and taking Nubians from Africa.
    But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.

  5. #155
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    When I saw the mob in North Carolina tearing down the statue of a Confederate soldier, I immediately thought of three other examples in recent history: the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad 2003, the destruction of Lenin statues in Ukraine starting in the 1990s, and demolition of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in 2001. The first was a war-time act and the statue was of a ruthless dictator that was still alive, so I have no qualms about that one. The second occurred in a post-independence transition period, and although I personally didn't want to see them destroyed, I think it's somewhat understandable considering Ukrainians had literally just thrown off communism and emerged from under the thumb of the USSR. Finally, the destruction of the Buddhas was just senseless destruction of historical art because it wasn't politically correct in modernity. By invoking the term "politically correct" here I'm referring to the fact that modern Afghans don't tolerate non-Islamic religions even though the region of Afghanistan was once multi-religious. The Buddhas seemed like the closest analogy to what I saw in North Carolina.
    Really, you pick that one? Look, here's a statue of an oppressor people want to get rid of. Which does it most closely resemble?

    a.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    b.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    c.) people blowing up ancient religious symbols

    Nevermind that various rulers had literally been trying for centuries to deface and destroy the Buddhas. The Taliban succeeded where others failed.

    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now. In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.
    Memorial removal notwithstanding, where is history being reinterpreted? Also how, and is it a new phenomena?

  6. #156
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    One person's hero is another person's traitor. This country was founded by traitors after all.
    It was not founded by traitors to the USA. Are you done with the semantics (I ask, knowing that you likely are not)?
    Last edited by Nicker; 18th Aug 2017 at 15:57.

  7. #157
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya
    ...But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.
    If anyone thinks this is hyperbole, it's very much not. For a select few, those statues aren't merely a record of our history, but are symbolic of a struggle that's still ongoing.

  8. #158
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Maddow Show
    Yes, I saw that one. I watch quite a lot of her stuff. She's lucid (even while scrabbling for a word) and funny and her voice doesn't grate.

    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Combination of stupidity and people scrabbling for a reason to feel superior to others which doesn't involve them having to make any effort or achieve anything.
    That explains the bully in the playground. I find it beyond bizarre that some people seem to have a fundamental belief that an accident of birth makes them better than someone else. The question of why has plagued me for the last 30 years. And I haven't yet found a satisfactory answer. There probably isn't one. Undoubtedly stupidity (sorry Renz) and ignorance is part of it but I don't see how it can be the whole.

    I wish it would stop raining.

  9. #159
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    Really, you pick that one? Look, here's a statue of an oppressor people want to get rid of. Which does it most closely resemble?

    a.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    b.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    c.) people blowing up ancient religious symbols

    Nevermind that various rulers had literally been trying for centuries to deface and destroy the Buddhas. The Taliban succeeded where others failed.
    The reason I picked that one was because of the historical significance. In the case of the Saddam statue, it wasn't a historical symbol by any stretch of the imagination. It was a symbol of the present government which is being toppled. In the case of the Buddhas, they were obviously historical symbols. It seemed to me like it was a good example of purging symbols of your own history because they are distasteful to your present day culture. Taking down the Lenin statues falls somewhere in between.

    May not have been the best analogy, but that was what popped into my head when I was watching the video from NC.

    Memorial removal notwithstanding, where is history being reinterpreted? Also how, and is it a new phenomena?
    It's not a new phenomenon. History is being reinterpreted all the time. Re-interpreting history given new knowledge is fine. Re-interpreting history such that you distort it to fit a politically correct narrative is not.

    I'll give you an example. A current politically correct view, mainly held by left-leaning Civil War historians, is that there were no black Confederates. This is held despite the fact we have primary source evidence, including writings of Frederick Douglass, that there were regiments of free blacks fighting in the Confederate army, on the order of maybe 5000 soldiers. These accounts were used to press the Union army into accepting black soldiers. Also, blacks were the backbone of the Confederacy, working in arms factories, building forts and railroads, providing food and supplies to the Confederate army, etc. Most of them were conscripted slaves, but also some free blacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Not by traitors to the USA.
    What difference does that make? Read the histories of Washington and Lee and tell me what difference is there between them that justifies celebrating one as a hero and the other as a traitor who shouldn't be memorialized? One won his war of independence and the other lost his war of independence. If that is enough to call one a good guy and the other a bad guy, that's absurd.
    Last edited by heywood; 18th Aug 2017 at 16:07.

  10. #160
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Pretty sure the problem aren't the statues themselves but the persistent racism in those areas which they have come to represent. We have statues of Prussian emperors, the Italians hold their ancient Roman ruins in high regard (although Romans held slaves!), etc.
    And it's not a problem. Because no one here is dreaming of bringing back the Prussian emperor and the Italians don't dream of sailing over the Mediterranean and taking Nubians from Africa.
    But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.
    The statues are also reminders that we once fought a bloody civil war that killed up to 750k Americans according to recent estimates, or about 2.5% of the population, and destroyed many cities and towns of the South. Besides their historical significance, maybe they make some people think twice about going down that road again. To use George Santayana's trite little saying, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    By the way, I wish the problem was confined to the South. We seem to have white supremacists coming out of the closet all over.

  11. #161
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Re-interpreting history given new knowledge is fine. Re-interpreting history such that you distort it to fit a politically correct narrative is not.
    Exactly true...and critically important for the sake of western society.

    To use George Santayana's trite little saying, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    ...and as Merlin would say, "It is the doom of men that they forget".

    Censorship and distortion only serve the insecurities of the short-term reactionaries, at the expense of civilization.

  12. #162
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I find it beyond bizarre that some people seem to have a fundamental belief that an accident of birth makes them better than someone else. The question of why has plagued me for the last 30 years. And I haven't yet found a satisfactory answer.
    It's pretty simple if you work backwards. Start with the supposition that you're better than someone else, because that's what you want to believe. Then, backtrack through your life until you find a way to justify your ego-satisfying conclusion. Don't find anything? Must be birth/ancestry!

  13. #163
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    So, you think that clashes of Antifa and Black Lives Matter with actual White Supremacists and neo-Nazis are 'false flags' and at the very same time "everyone just mulls about blissfully ignorant to the WHITE SUPREMECY that *rules the world*"?
    Yes, I believe that key paid actors were present that day, as part of the globalist agenda to divide and conquer, paid by the very people in fact I am talking about when I say white supremecy, the US gov/central banking, overwhelmingly beyond any shadow of any doubt pure white baby, rulin' *your* world boss.

    Personally, I think its absolutely crazy that the world has been run by white people for this long, dont you? Or when you say "Oh GMD just figured this out olol", is that your personal way of saying to me, yes I understand that I have been ruled by a white man my whole life, but there is nothing I can do about it, so I will move on to smaller issues?

    Because if that, the root problem of it *all*, isnt being addressed 24/7 until resolved, then it is my belief that you are merely a set piece, playing your designated role. That is my opinion. I have done eveything I can safely do to properly advance independence in my country. Take a shot at me cuz you think Im crazy, I dont care. TTLG has always been this silly little echo stop.

  14. #164
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Looks like Charles Barkley has a reasonable, self-secure and productive view, as a black American from the south.


  15. #165
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    A quick Google tells me that the electorate is 69% white, 12% black, 12% Hispanic, and 4% Asian.
    Congress is 75% white, 11.5% black, 9% Hispanic, 3.5% Asian.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...n-u-s-history/
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...nic-diversity/

    We just had a black President for the last 8 years, who had a cabinet that was 25% black and 12.5% Hispanic.
    I'll grant you that the current cabinet is pretty heavily white male.

    But I don't see any massive disconnect between the racial makeup of our national leadership and the racial makeup of the electorate anymore.

  16. #166
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldmoon Dawn View Post
    Take a shot at me cuz you think Im crazy, I dont care.
    Alright!

    Reading one of your political posts is like watching a senile old man scream at clouds.

  17. #167
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    They're not clouds, they're mind-altering aerosols being injected into the stratosphere, remember?

  18. #168
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    ...oh yeeaaahhh.

    PATRIOT SPRAY! PATRIOT SPRAY! WE'RE ALL SCREWED! \/

  19. #169
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Damn vegan Broccoli clouds. There. That one looks like a wiener. Or maybe... Savannah, get back into the house!!

  20. #170
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Wow, even you Kolya?

    Sad thing is, Im not sure if you do or dont understand that Renz is mocking me for witnessing geoengineering, as that occured before your recent return, unless you were lurking all along and are now getting your jab in too.

    Either way guys, I have decided to just walk away from this for now. I keep mistakenly saying TTLG, when I really just mean CommShit.

  21. #171
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    You talking about that grid of vapor trails? There are a thousand and one reasons for that. Why jump to the most extreme conclusion?

  22. #172
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    *You* did this to me.

    Like I said, man, sorry for calling you an Asshat, sorry for "shitting" on this thread, I go away now so you guys can put the file report button away. Its all gravy in tha navy, but I will still be reading this silly stuff.

  23. #173
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea

  24. #174
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    None of you fuckers knows as much about civil war history as me. None. Challenge me. I've read Shelby Foote's 1600 page tome on it. I've studied it. I respect the truth about history. I want the truth known. All of it warts and all. So this bullshit about statues erected in the twentieth century being sacred is a load of crap. History? What in hell does a statue tell you? Just what this or that general looked like. I like Renzes solution about putting them on battlefields or graveyards where you are there for the specific purpose of learning that history.

    So in front of court houses or in parks where they are seen by those not seeking history? Why? Unless that court house was burned by Union forces as general A.J.Smith did the Oxford, Ms. court house then why? Every black person who goes by them is reminded that person wanted to keep them enslaved. Why do you want to remind them of that? Do you want to rub it in their faces? Do you want to show them you revere those who wanted to keep them in chains? Oh but history is sacred right? Fine. Put it where folks are seeking to learn history.

    And oh holy hell such a load of crap the Santayana quote about those who forget history. Such hypocrisy. How about YOU don't forget history? The south was WRONG. States rights? Yeah. States rights to OWN SLAVES. Charles Barkley and a lot of good black folks walk past our arrogance daily but that don't make it right. You want to learn history? READ A DAMN BOOK. A statue does not teach you all the words in a book. It lets you know what a particular person looked like. That's all. That's it. And they were put up as a dick in the eye of the north telling us what to do. You know it if you are from the south. But that dick in the eye did not take into account our own good black folks that have to suffer our stupid shit that just craps all over what they may feel about our "revering" those who wanted them in chains.

    Fuck you. Fuck you if you want to ignore their feelings. Fuck you if you don't want to acknowledge that to stand up to racist fascist fucks is a GOOD thing. Want to lump them in with those who ARE racist fascist fucks like the president did? FUCK YOU. YOU do not know that folks did not stand up to Nazis in Germany when they could? NO? Then why in hell do you think folks should not stand up to them now? Fuck Trump and his racist voters. Fuck YOU if you do not think we should stand against fascists because they are voters for Trump. Fuck you for making light of them. Fascists succeeded once. Why would they not again if we do not stand against them? We are too special? Not by a long shot. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. If you don't think we should stand against fascists then YOU are forgetting history.

    Goddamn it I'm drunk but that don't make every word I said the truth. Some of you piss me right the hell off for what you ignore and twist to fit the way you want things to be instead of what they are. Fuck you. I think you KNOW exactly what you are doing. Sure I get shit faced every night of the weekend but if fascists come to my town I guarantee I will be stone cold sober and standing against them. I won't make excuses for them or standing with them because I made the mistake of voting for an ass who does. Fuck you. You know who you are.

  25. #175
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Drunk Tocky is best Tocky.

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