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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #151
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    What I don't understand is how it erases history in any way...
    Oh, it doesn't, but any port in a storm. Liberals are doing it, therefore it must be opposed, preferably with liberal-sounding rationalizations.

  2. #152
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: London / London / London
    Would an acceptable solution be to keep the statues and just graft an erect brass penis onto the forehead of each one?

  3. #153
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    This is a present day cultural conflict. Historical statues and monuments shouldn't even be involved in this.

    I don't think that transitional justice applies as an excuse now because the civil war was 150 years ago and everyone alive today is several generations removed from anyone who personally experienced it. The Reconstruction was a period of transitional justice. If we're going to say that monuments, memorials, and historical art are fair game for destruction since we're still in a period of post-Civil war transitional justice, then pretty much every society on Earth is in a perpetual transitional justice period and everything is fair game.

    When I saw the mob in North Carolina tearing down the statue of a Confederate soldier, I immediately thought of three other examples in recent history: the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad 2003, the destruction of Lenin statues in Ukraine starting in the 1990s, and demolition of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in 2001. The first was a war-time act and the statue was of a ruthless dictator that was still alive, so I have no qualms about that one. The second occurred in a post-independence transition period, and although I personally didn't want to see them destroyed, I think it's somewhat understandable considering Ukrainians had literally just thrown off communism and emerged from under the thumb of the USSR. Finally, the destruction of the Buddhas was just senseless destruction of historical art because it wasn't politically correct in modernity. By invoking the term "politically correct" here I'm referring to the fact that modern Afghans don't tolerate non-Islamic religions even though the region of Afghanistan was once multi-religious. The Buddhas seemed like the closest analogy to what I saw in North Carolina.

    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now. In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.

  4. #154
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    This bust of Abraham Lincoln, erected by Phil Bloomquist on August 31, 1926, was damaged & burned...



    In the minority partisan opinion, it is justified to destroy historical statues and monuments that some find disagreeable.

    This is just another example of an irrational, emotionally insecure response, that is desecrating American heritage and creating strife as a result of imbalance.

  5. #155
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Vae. You are creating a false equivalence between monuments to national heroes and celebrations of traitors.

  6. #156
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now.
    I agree. It is Orwellian in nature, and as such, it is a disservice to humanity.

    In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.
    You are correct. The value of these monuments are multi-dimensional, as a service to civilization...As opposed to the incomplete one-dimensional perspective that is being reinforced by partisan propaganda.

  7. #157
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    It's not surprising that there is a counter-reaction. Up here we've had Holocaust memorials being vandalized this week.

    And in other news, apparently Steve Bannon is out of his White House job, but I just read he submitted a resignation back on Aug 7.

  8. #158
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Vae. You are creating a false equivalence between monuments to national heroes and celebrations of traitors.
    One person's hero is another person's traitor. This country was founded by traitors after all.

  9. #159
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Pretty sure the problem aren't the statues themselves but the persistent racism in those areas which they have come to represent. We have statues of Prussian emperors, the Italians hold their ancient Roman ruins in high regard (although Romans held slaves!), etc.
    And it's not a problem. Because no one here is dreaming of bringing back the Prussian emperor and the Italians don't dream of sailing over the Mediterranean and taking Nubians from Africa.
    But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.

  10. #160
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    When I saw the mob in North Carolina tearing down the statue of a Confederate soldier, I immediately thought of three other examples in recent history: the toppling of Saddam Hussein's statue in Baghdad 2003, the destruction of Lenin statues in Ukraine starting in the 1990s, and demolition of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in 2001. The first was a war-time act and the statue was of a ruthless dictator that was still alive, so I have no qualms about that one. The second occurred in a post-independence transition period, and although I personally didn't want to see them destroyed, I think it's somewhat understandable considering Ukrainians had literally just thrown off communism and emerged from under the thumb of the USSR. Finally, the destruction of the Buddhas was just senseless destruction of historical art because it wasn't politically correct in modernity. By invoking the term "politically correct" here I'm referring to the fact that modern Afghans don't tolerate non-Islamic religions even though the region of Afghanistan was once multi-religious. The Buddhas seemed like the closest analogy to what I saw in North Carolina.
    Really, you pick that one? Look, here's a statue of an oppressor people want to get rid of. Which does it most closely resemble?

    a.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    b.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    c.) people blowing up ancient religious symbols

    Nevermind that various rulers had literally been trying for centuries to deface and destroy the Buddhas. The Taliban succeeded where others failed.

    I'm a history buff and it makes me angry when history gets hijacked by a political or cultural movement far removed from it. Or when history gets re-interpreted in a one-sided way to justify some modern day cause. Or when supposed "historians" falsify history to fit a politically correct narrative. All of that is happening now. In my opinion, the benefit of having these public symbols such as statues, memorials, etc. is so that people don't forget their history, and sometimes they inspire people to learn it. My impression is that most of the people who advocate purging the country of public symbols of the Confederacy don't know jack shit about it, and don't WANT to know jack shit about it, which is sad.
    Memorial removal notwithstanding, where is history being reinterpreted? Also how, and is it a new phenomena?

  11. #161
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    One person's hero is another person's traitor. This country was founded by traitors after all.
    It was not founded by traitors to the USA. Are you done with the semantics (I ask, knowing that you likely are not)?
    Last edited by Nicker; 18th Aug 2017 at 14:57.

  12. #162
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya
    ...But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.
    If anyone thinks this is hyperbole, it's very much not. For a select few, those statues aren't merely a record of our history, but are symbolic of a struggle that's still ongoing.

  13. #163
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Maddow Show
    Yes, I saw that one. I watch quite a lot of her stuff. She's lucid (even while scrabbling for a word) and funny and her voice doesn't grate.

    Quote Originally Posted by faetal View Post
    Combination of stupidity and people scrabbling for a reason to feel superior to others which doesn't involve them having to make any effort or achieve anything.
    That explains the bully in the playground. I find it beyond bizarre that some people seem to have a fundamental belief that an accident of birth makes them better than someone else. The question of why has plagued me for the last 30 years. And I haven't yet found a satisfactory answer. There probably isn't one. Undoubtedly stupidity (sorry Renz) and ignorance is part of it but I don't see how it can be the whole.

    I wish it would stop raining.

  14. #164
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    Really, you pick that one? Look, here's a statue of an oppressor people want to get rid of. Which does it most closely resemble?

    a.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    b.) people getting rid of a statue of an oppressor
    c.) people blowing up ancient religious symbols

    Nevermind that various rulers had literally been trying for centuries to deface and destroy the Buddhas. The Taliban succeeded where others failed.
    The reason I picked that one was because of the historical significance. In the case of the Saddam statue, it wasn't a historical symbol by any stretch of the imagination. It was a symbol of the present government which is being toppled. In the case of the Buddhas, they were obviously historical symbols. It seemed to me like it was a good example of purging symbols of your own history because they are distasteful to your present day culture. Taking down the Lenin statues falls somewhere in between.

    May not have been the best analogy, but that was what popped into my head when I was watching the video from NC.

    Memorial removal notwithstanding, where is history being reinterpreted? Also how, and is it a new phenomena?
    It's not a new phenomenon. History is being reinterpreted all the time. Re-interpreting history given new knowledge is fine. Re-interpreting history such that you distort it to fit a politically correct narrative is not.

    I'll give you an example. A current politically correct view, mainly held by left-leaning Civil War historians, is that there were no black Confederates. This is held despite the fact we have primary source evidence, including writings of Frederick Douglass, that there were regiments of free blacks fighting in the Confederate army, on the order of maybe 5000 soldiers. These accounts were used to press the Union army into accepting black soldiers. Also, blacks were the backbone of the Confederacy, working in arms factories, building forts and railroads, providing food and supplies to the Confederate army, etc. Most of them were conscripted slaves, but also some free blacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicker View Post
    Not by traitors to the USA.
    What difference does that make? Read the histories of Washington and Lee and tell me what difference is there between them that justifies celebrating one as a hero and the other as a traitor who shouldn't be memorialized? One won his war of independence and the other lost his war of independence. If that is enough to call one a good guy and the other a bad guy, that's absurd.
    Last edited by heywood; 18th Aug 2017 at 15:07.

  15. #165
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Pretty sure the problem aren't the statues themselves but the persistent racism in those areas which they have come to represent. We have statues of Prussian emperors, the Italians hold their ancient Roman ruins in high regard (although Romans held slaves!), etc.
    And it's not a problem. Because no one here is dreaming of bringing back the Prussian emperor and the Italians don't dream of sailing over the Mediterranean and taking Nubians from Africa.
    But it would seem in the American South there are a lot of people who dream of bringing back segregation and of reversing any societal progress that the US have made in the past 150 years.
    And that's why some want statues to be removed and others want them to stay. Either way, the symbol will not solve the problem.
    The statues are also reminders that we once fought a bloody civil war that killed up to 750k Americans according to recent estimates, or about 2.5% of the population, and destroyed many cities and towns of the South. Besides their historical significance, maybe they make some people think twice about going down that road again. To use George Santayana's trite little saying, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

    By the way, I wish the problem was confined to the South. We seem to have white supremacists coming out of the closet all over.

  16. #166
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Re-interpreting history given new knowledge is fine. Re-interpreting history such that you distort it to fit a politically correct narrative is not.
    Exactly true...and critically important for the sake of western society.

    To use George Santayana's trite little saying, those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
    ...and as Merlin would say, "It is the doom of men that they forget".

    Censorship and distortion only serve the insecurities of the short-term reactionaries, at the expense of civilization.

  17. #167
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I find it beyond bizarre that some people seem to have a fundamental belief that an accident of birth makes them better than someone else. The question of why has plagued me for the last 30 years. And I haven't yet found a satisfactory answer.
    It's pretty simple if you work backwards. Start with the supposition that you're better than someone else, because that's what you want to believe. Then, backtrack through your life until you find a way to justify your ego-satisfying conclusion. Don't find anything? Must be birth/ancestry!

  18. #168
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    So, you think that clashes of Antifa and Black Lives Matter with actual White Supremacists and neo-Nazis are 'false flags' and at the very same time "everyone just mulls about blissfully ignorant to the WHITE SUPREMECY that *rules the world*"?
    Yes, I believe that key paid actors were present that day, as part of the globalist agenda to divide and conquer, paid by the very people in fact I am talking about when I say white supremecy, the US gov/central banking, overwhelmingly beyond any shadow of any doubt pure white baby, rulin' *your* world boss.

    Personally, I think its absolutely crazy that the world has been run by white people for this long, dont you? Or when you say "Oh GMD just figured this out olol", is that your personal way of saying to me, yes I understand that I have been ruled by a white man my whole life, but there is nothing I can do about it, so I will move on to smaller issues?

    Because if that, the root problem of it *all*, isnt being addressed 24/7 until resolved, then it is my belief that you are merely a set piece, playing your designated role. That is my opinion. I have done eveything I can safely do to properly advance independence in my country. Take a shot at me cuz you think Im crazy, I dont care. TTLG has always been this silly little echo stop.

  19. #169
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    Looks like Charles Barkley has a reasonable, self-secure and productive view, as a black American from the south.


  20. #170
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    A quick Google tells me that the electorate is 69% white, 12% black, 12% Hispanic, and 4% Asian.
    Congress is 75% white, 11.5% black, 9% Hispanic, 3.5% Asian.

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...n-u-s-history/
    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...nic-diversity/

    We just had a black President for the last 8 years, who had a cabinet that was 25% black and 12.5% Hispanic.
    I'll grant you that the current cabinet is pretty heavily white male.

    But I don't see any massive disconnect between the racial makeup of our national leadership and the racial makeup of the electorate anymore.

  21. #171
    Member
    Registered: May 1999
    Location: on the socio path
    Nah that can't be right. There's got to be something wrong, something to fix.

  22. #172
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldmoon Dawn View Post
    Take a shot at me cuz you think Im crazy, I dont care.
    Alright!

    Reading one of your political posts is like watching a senile old man scream at clouds.

  23. #173
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    They're not clouds, they're mind-altering aerosols being injected into the stratosphere, remember?

  24. #174
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    ...oh yeeaaahhh.

    PATRIOT SPRAY! PATRIOT SPRAY! WE'RE ALL SCREWED! \/

  25. #175
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Damn vegan Broccoli clouds. There. That one looks like a wiener. Or maybe... Savannah, get back into the house!!

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