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Thread: Charlottesville Virginia

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN

    Charlottesville Virginia

    A state of emergency is declared in Charlottesville, Virginia following violent clashes between "White Nationalists" and human beings.

    OK - I will light the fuse on this one. This is exactly the sort of shit which was predicted to happen thanks to the example and tone set by Donald Trump. His actions and rhetoric have emboldened racists and his feeble and delayed condemnations are nothing but Trumpian double speak.

  2. #2
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    It is rather strange how he's show willing to kick off the fiery rhetoric and frantic raving on Twitter at the drop of a hat, but the moment anything involving Russia or white nationalism comes into play, he immediately turns into the usual concerned politician carefully choosing his words so nothing can be used against him later.

    Contrast today's Twitter responses to the violence in Charlottesville to anything he's said about North Korea, Mitch McConnell, the Democrats, or Mexican immigrant crime. A marked difference.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    In retrospect, this Charlie Brooker clip turned out to be pretty prophetic:



    And it's not even been a year.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    It's almost like Donald Trump is a Nazi/White Supremacist himself! WHO COULD'VE POSSIBLY GUESSED.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I would rather blame the white nationalist groups who decided that rather than simply protest removing the statue, they had to be intimidating while they did it. And blame the antifa for matching their fucktardedness. I also reserve some blame for the people who are systematically trying to erase all symbols of the history of the South. From what I've read so far, it seems that no shots were fired. Thank goodness for that.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    from what I've read so far, it seems that no shots were fired. Thank goodness for that.
    A car was driven into the crowd and at least one person is dead.

    And fuck the history of the South. Monuments to people who fought to both retain the right to own human beings as property and secede from the United States should never have been erected in the first place. Taking them down now is an attempt to right a wrong that should have come decades ago.

  7. #7
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I don't have a problem keeping them in their appropriate places. I live just down the street from Chickamauga Battlefield, and if there's one place where having a few Confederate flags and statues of CSA soldiers would be, it's there.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Nope. Don't memorialize people who fought and died for the cause of oppression and racism. Doing so contributes to the idea that they were somehow noble. There aren't Nazi flags and statues of German soldiers on WWII battlefields, there shouldn't be Confederate flags and statues of CSA soldiers on Civil War battlefields.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I also reserve some blame for the people who are systematically trying to erase all symbols of the history of the South.
    Wow. Consider this statement for a moment. "...all symbols of the history of the South." That's what Heywood just stated. Now, we're talking very specifically about the confederacy. This systematic erasure is focused entirely and exclusively on a five year period. And Heywood is stating that's the entirety of the history of the south. Part of that is Heywood being full of it... But I would argue that the larger share of the blame is on the southerners who've made that their focus for 150 years and counting.

  10. #10
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Truth be told, reviving the Confederacy as a symbol of southern heritage has only been a thing since the mid-60's. Yeah, there have always been memorials, graveyards, battlefields, and the like dotting the landscape, but the only people you'd regularly see flying the battle flag before '65 would've been Klan. The whole trend began as a symbolic representation of the Dixiecrat stance against the Civil Rights Act of '64 before taking on its current role of HERITAGE NOT HATE!

    For some, it's contemporary meaning may very well be true. I'm not gonna call every single person who flies it a racist. But it's hard to deny it's very racist roots, and why it still bothers some people to this day.

    And no, I'm very much against erasing the history of the South during the Civil War. I just think it's heroes and symbols needs to be relegated to the museums, where they best belong.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Even some Republicans are calling the president on his embarrassingly anemic response. The president's refusal to decisively rebuke the racists that championed his candidacy was always a big fat cloud hanging over his campaign. Now we're here and he still can't find his spine.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Truth be told, reviving the Confederacy as a symbol of southern heritage has only been a thing since the mid-60's. Yeah, there have always been memorials, graveyards, battlefields, and the like dotting the landscape, but the only people you'd regularly see flying the battle flag before '65 would've been Klan. The whole trend began as a symbolic representation of the Dixiecrat stance against the Civil Rights Act of '64 before taking on its current role of HERITAGE NOT HATE!
    I think you're conflating the Battle Flag and the Confederacy as a whole here, Renz. Most of these monuments have been up since not too long after the Civil War (and I can't find the article about it, but the construction of a lot of these monuments was funded by the white supremacist groups of the time).

    The thing that bugs me most about this whole 'History of The South' shit is that it's maintaining this idea that the southern states are somehow separate from the rest of the United States. And that's an idea that needs to die. The only parts of the history of The South that should have their own curriculum are the history prior to those states becoming states, same as it is with every other state.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: May 1999
    Location: on the socio path
    Why can't he just say radical white nationalist terrorism?

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    When questioned about the rationale for Trump’s evenhandedness, the White House clarified that both the protesters and the counter-protesters had resorted to violence. This is notable in that the United States was once a country that did not see Nazis and those willing to fight them as morally equivalent.
    Source: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-...harlottesville

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    Quote Originally Posted by Abysmal View Post
    Why can't he just say radical white nationalist terrorism?
    Because they are his base?

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    BTW, thanks to the mods for their modding efforts.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Why the Confederate Flag Made a 20th Century Comeback

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...t-war-history/

  18. #18
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    I think you're conflating the Battle Flag and the Confederacy as a whole here, Renz. Most of these monuments have been up since not too long after the Civil War (and I can't find the article about it, but the construction of a lot of these monuments was funded by the white supremacist groups of the time).
    Yes and no. Before the Civil Rights movement, the idea of the confederacy being an ingrained part of Our Southern Heritage didn't have quite as much of strength to it as it does now. Yeah, we had parks, statues, and the Sons of Confederate Veterans (which I'm eligible to join, by the way) hanging around, but it wasn't quite so ingrained in the culture. The resurrection of the battle flag as a symbol of Southern pride (and southern resistance) in the 60's is really what kicked off the whole notion as we think of it today.

    So the battle flag and the confederacy became somewhat intertwined from a modern viewpoint.

    The thing that bugs me most about this whole 'History of The South' shit is that it's maintaining this idea that the southern states are somehow separate from the rest of the United States. And that's an idea that needs to die. The only parts of the history of The South that should have their own curriculum are the history prior to those states becoming states, same as it is with every other state.
    I can't disagree with this. This doesn't mean I'm all for erasing the history of the Civil War exactly, but we need to deescalate its importance. It needs to be more history, less a cultural cornerstore.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    Most of these monuments have been up since not too long after the Civil War
    If by "not too long after the Civil War" you mean the 1920's (when the Klan was having their populist revival), then I'm in 100% agreement.

  20. #20
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    If there is one thing I hope we keep around, it'd be the Civil War reenactments.

    Once every few years or so, the Civil War Society will host a mock Battle of Ringgold Gap so close to my house, I can look out my upstairs windows and see them all these blue and grey people running around on the field. They fire off cannons and everything. It's so cool.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    In the aftermath of the Charlottesville incident, what bothers me the most, besides the fact that there are right-wing nutjobs who are willing to murder innocent people because those people disagree with the nutjobs' opinions, is how the POTUS handled the situation. Deplorably, of course.

    'The founder of the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi and white supremacist website that considers itself a part of the alt-right, celebrated the fact that Trump "outright refused to disavow" the white nationalist rally and movement.

    "People saying he cucked are shills and kikes," wrote the founder, Andrew Anglin. "He did the opposite of cuck. He refused to even mention anything to do with us. When reporters were screaming at him about White Nationalism he just walked out of the room."
    (http://www.businessinsider.com/neo-n...e-riots-2017-8)

    He. Walked. Out. Of. The. Room. Rather than denounce the white supremacists and their acts of violence (and their insanity), he just got up and left. But not before he blamed 'both sides' and 'all parties involved'. Sorry, but I didn't see the anti-Nazi protesters sporting combat gear and automatic weapons (I can't even bring up the whole tiki torch thing without laughing my ass off). And it was a Drumpf supporter who came all the way down from Ohio to Charlottesville in order to drive his car into a group of anti-Nazi protesters. Yeah, both sides need to settle down and take a breath, but Drumpf isn't helping that to happen. In fact, imo Drumpf isn't helping anything or anyone right now except himself and his elite 1% BFFs. Just wondering how much more of this bullshit our country can take.

    As far as the whole Confederate monument thing is concerned, just put all the statues, flags, etc., in a museum where they belong. Putting the monuments, etc., in museums would not be 'erasing all symbols of the history of the South', but more like putting them in their proper place in history. The South lost the Civil War, slavery was abolished and the South never did secede. It's over so can we please just move forward now?

    Oh, and could we also please have a do-over with the whole election thing? The Oompa-Loompa currently in office (and his regime) just doesn't seem to be working out. Only this time, let's not let the Electoral College participate; they screwed the pooch the last time we let them play.


  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    I agree about Trump. My first reaction was what's the big deal about his statement? It was short and generic and he failed to call out the terrorist who drove through the crowd, but I don't usually pay any attention to Presidents' statements after events like these. But the fact that he didn't come back with a stronger follow-up after taking heat from his own party, and then he refused to discuss white nationalism, that's just unacceptable. Now we have the white nationalists celebrating what they believe to be support from the President. Unless Trump reacts swiftly and strongly to correct that, I'm going to have to admit that Trump really is a white nationalist sympathizer. I had given him the benefit of the doubt.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Regarding the symbology, I was hyperbolic. What I should have said is that I partly blame the people who are systematically trying to erase all symbols of the Confederacy and the Civil War in the South.

    If it's acceptable to have a memorial for Sherman right in front of the White House, surely it should be acceptable to have a memorial for Lee. Like most major figures of 18th and 19th century American history, there are many different ways to look at the legacy of Robert E. Lee. He was first a patriot, West Point grad, army engineer who distinguished himself during the Mexican-American war, and later superintendent of West Point.

    Lee was against secession and initially pro-Union. When the Confederacy formed and offered him a command, he declined. He remained in the Union army and took a command position instead. Just before the start of the war, he was offered the rank of General and command of the Washington D.C. campaign, but ultimately his loyalty was to his home state of Virginia, so when Virginia seceded he resigned from the Union army. Shortly thereafter he took command of Virginia's forces, and later took the role of General in the Conferate army that everyone remembers him for.

    I think it is a bit unfair to think of Lee as a symbol of slavery, although again his history is complicated. From what I've read, Lee was philosophically anti-slavery. However, he was more or less forced as executor of his father-in-law's will into taking a leave of absence from the Army to run his late father-in-law's plantation, and his principal challenge there was to find a way to emancipate his father-in-law's slaves within 5 years per the will's instruction, which was complicated due to the family's debts. He wrote at the time that slavery was morally evil, but he believed in the concept of white man's burden and that the slaves had to be prepared to become free men. He also whipped the slaves who tried to escape the plantation before they were emancipated.

    I think people should accept their history and learn from it, not whitewash it or banish it. It seems somewhat hypocritical to me the way we tend to whitewash over the slave owning history of "founding fathers" like Jefferson and Franklin, who along with others wrote slavery into the Constitution, meanwhile demonizing everyone connected to the Confederacy. Similarly, I don't like the way the Civil War tends to be framed in simplistic good vs. evil terms, i.e. noble abolitionists from the North fighting against the evil plantation owners of the South to free the slaves. Slavery was obviously a central issue, and the Republicans' overwhelming victory in 1960 was the trigger that set off secession. However, abolition wasn't even one of the stated goals of the Union until 2 years into the war. Also, Southern grievances went beyond just abolition. There was an economic imbalance due to the industrialization of the North, tension over railroads and modernization, Northern dominance over tariffs & trade policy, states rights, the failure of the government to protect settlers on the Western frontier, and just Southern pride and Southern cultural identity.

    The South had some legit grievances over the Civil War and Reconstruction period that unfortunately some modern Southerners still haven't gotten over. They were invaded by a conquering army and suffered brutally at the hands of the Union army, who sacked and razed cities and officially practiced collective punishment against the civilian population. And following that they were basically occupied by a bunch of Republican opportunists from the North.

    None of this post was meant to excuse white nationalism, so I hope nobody takes it that way. I have objections to taking down this (and similar) statues. First, the effort to purge the South of monuments and synbols of the Confederacy and Civil War is a rallying point for white supremacists. It also provides a bridge of common ground between white supremacists and more mainstream Southern conservatives. Second, we're helping to turn historical figures and symbols into symbols of white supremacy, which not only helps their movement but it also makes it harder to teach the history. Finally, I'm just fundamentally opposed to reshaping/rewriting history to suit a preferred narrative or present day political views, and this is related to the debate going on between academics over the political correct-ization of Civil War history.
    Last edited by heywood; 14th Aug 2017 at 13:30.

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Mar 1999
    Location: I can't find myself
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    If by "not too long after the Civil War" you mean the 1920's (when the Klan was having their populist revival), then I'm in 100% agreement.
    Try 1884

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2003
    Location: Location, Location
    Just watched today's PDS and thought it was a pretty good recap of the important points of this event, for anyone who hasn't been following it closely.


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