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Thread: Route 91 Harvest Music Festival Shooting - Gun Control Thread

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    It's true that the homicide rate in the US is much higher than in other high-income countries, but the rate of firearm homicide is far far higher still.

    (...)

    Certainly, correlation alone doesn't prove anything, but there is a strong correlation between the number of firearms and number of homicides:
    I have to correct you slightly there in that the chart you posted is specifically correlating firearm homicides to firearm ownership, not homicides as a whole. But as you said, even if you completely ignore our firearm homicides, we still have a higher homicide rate than most first-world countries.

    And if you dismiss all stats from just our five biggest cities, the resulting homicide rate is lower than most of Europe. There's an inverse relationship in this country between gun ownership and gun violence, where cities like Chicago and Baltimore are centers for violence despite strict control, while the state of New Hampshire is armed to the teeth but overwhelmingly peaceful. That's not to suggest anything about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun control (let alone 'more guns will solve the problem'), rather that the problems we have are clearly more cultural and societal than simply access = violence.

    As often as people draw comparisons to the UK or Australia, I'd rather realistically look at comparisons to New Zealand, the Czech Republic, and Switzerland. These countries are more lax in their gun regulation than many seem to want in the US (in some ways, Switzerland is more lax than the US is now), yet their overall homicide rates are low. I think it's more realistic to try to strive for a social model like that than to try to disarm a country literally founded on ownership of weapons.

    Access to guns obviously turns social problems more lethal than they otherwise would be. There's no denying that. But I strongly dislike how the discussion on these issues revolves around the means rather than the causes of violence. You can't address one and ignore the other and expect results.

    And even then, which means, and which violence are we talking about? If we want to address the #1 source of gun deaths, it's suicide. If we want to address the #1 source of homicides, it's inner-city gang violence brought about by failing economic and social systems, 97% of it is carried out with handguns, and overwhelmingly they're procured through straw purchase or unscrupulous sellers, the former of which the DoJ refuses to prosecute and the latter of which the ATF lacks the resources to investigate. We could take a big step towards addressing gun homicide through funding and mandating those agencies to do so, and without stepping on gun owners' toes. Yet the debate around gun control is all about assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and gun shows and we go around in circles.

    I'm just tired of this. There's so much we could be doing to address the statistically significant sources of our problem with gun violence, but instead it's another game of political football. The DoJ concluded that the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban was worthless, yet politicians insist we need to ban assault weapons. Dysfunctional social systems and the school-to-prison pipeline are demonstrable factors in inner-city crime, yet politicians would rather send 'thoughts and prayers' than allocate a small fraction of our budget to the issue. It feels like all the concern that arises from tragedies like this is just posturing and scoring points for the tribe.
    Last edited by catbarf; 5th Oct 2017 at 14:36.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    It's kind of crazy that I live in a country where there's current legislation attempting to legalize the sale of silencers.
    Speaking of which, in the UK suppressors are required for hunting and are far more readily available than in the US. Same goes for most other European countries. Petty criminals overwhelmingly prefer handguns because they're concealable, which suppressors compromise, while the understandable concern of mass shooters killing silently is a little off-base as a typical rifle still clocks in at around the dB level of a jackhammer in operation and they don't stand up to rapid fire. Since they are already legal, just heavily regulated, the Vegas shooter could have easily gotten one, or several, but didn't. There just isn't evidence that they're used in, or useful for, crime.

    If Congress wanted to trade removing suppressors from the NFA (so they'd need a background check, rather than a background check, excessive paperwork, $200 tax stamp, and 6-12 months wait time) for increasing regulation on handguns, I'd be all for it. Address a massive source of our gun violence problem while stripping red tape from a safety device, win-win.

    It'll never happen.

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    The guy who just killed 58 people in Vegas
    No, it was multiple shooters buddy.

    Also, the question was... "what makes the US so prone to violence". He didnt ask about the shooter that you are now talking about. I answered his question with just one little scratch off the surface, whereas you are lost in your own babbling confusion, as per usual.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    And now the point I wanted to make.
    Not having guns in society is not only about decreasing murder-rates.
    Guns have a much larger impact on people.
    They become scared.
    When everyone you meet might be packing an UZI, you need to be careful, All the time. When you do shopping, when you take your kids from school, etc. There can always be a nut with a gun. Be alert. All the time. And if you carry a gun yourself, you need to be even more alert. Because the guy who shoots first wins. So you'll have to make sure you shoot first. Because if you carry an UZI, and someone else shoots first and kills you, you'll look like a dork. Not like Rambo. So be alert. Keep your hands on your gun at all time. Be ready to shoot.

    You might think I'm overreacting.
    But just think about how the police in the US interacts with their own population.
    They are always ready to shoot and kill. No questions asked. If there is any doubt, shoot. Don't shoot once, shoot 10 times. Empty your gun. Make sure to shoot everyone in the head first. Then ask questions.

    This attitude has an impact on society.
    It is so common in the US that Americans don't realize it anymore.
    It makes life full of constant tension.
    It makes Americans the most scared pussies in the whole world.
    And they don't even know it.
    True if you happen to live in a gang & drug infested neighborhood of a major city. False pretty much everywhere else.

    We do have a lot of guns. But depending on where you live, you could go through your whole life and never see one except on a policeman's belt. By the way, the cops in my town are great. No complaints with the state police either, although I haven't dealt with them directly. I'm not black, but the impression I've gotten from black friends and coworkers is that they don't really have any problems with the cops either. Then again, I don't live in a place like Ferguson, Missouri.

    Someday you should visit here for a while, because you seem to have a very Hollywood and tabloid news driven view of American life.

    But the health care system does suck, I'll give you that one.

  5. #55
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    I'm probably lucky to be alive, according to you. What a crock.
    Tell me. If Americans are not scared, why do so many of them insist on having a gun for safety ?

    I live in a country with 17 million people. I work in a country with 10 million people. I live 300 meters from a country with 82 million people. I've never heard anyone out of those 100 million people say they need a gun for safety. Never. Not in real life, not in a newspaper, not on TV. Nobody here thinks a gun would make them safer.

    But half the Americans think they need a gun.
    Please explain.

  6. #56
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    Someday you should visit here for a while, because you seem to have a very Hollywood and tabloid news driven view of American life.
    I've spent about one and a half year of my life in the nineties in the US.

    But the health care system does suck, I'll give you that one.
    That's not the problem.
    The problem is that Americans are brain-washed that everything has to be done individually. You can't do things together. That's the commie way, not the American way. Universal health-care is bad. Unions are bad. Social security is bad. Getting help is bad. Public TV is bad. The result is that the American citizens are badly organized. And the 1% is eating them whole. The 99% will kept being eaten, because they think it's a fair fight between the 1% and the 99%, and they are just unlucky. The whole fake narrative that every American should be a lone-ranger yankee hero is part of that.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    I live in a country with 17 million people. I work in a country with 10 million people. I live 300 meters from a country with 82 million people. I've never heard anyone out of those 100 million people say they need a gun for safety. Never. Not in real life, not in a newspaper, not on TV. Nobody here thinks a gun would make them safer.

    But half the Americans think they need a gun.
    Please explain.
    Those Americans live in a country with several times the crime rate of yours (and dozens of times higher in our worst cities), which has a police response time sometimes measured in hours, a justice system that has explicitly ruled that police have absolutely no responsibility to protect them, and criminals who are already armed.

    So I guess the accurate answer to your question is that our countries are radically different and Americans are straight up told by their government that their safety is their own responsibility, so they take action appropriately.

    Edit: Also, seconding heywood's comments. For someone who says to have lived here I don't think you understand the American mindset. I know a number of concealed carriers and none of them are this paranoid always-ready-to-shoot caricature you describe. The mindset is much closer to 'rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it' than expecting a shootout at any moment.

  8. #58
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by catbarf View Post
    So I guess the accurate answer to your question is that our countries are radically different and Americans are straight up told by their government that their safety is their own responsibility, so they take action appropriately.
    You made your own country.
    In a democracy, the people are in charge.
    The people chose to elect the people they elect. They get the government they deserve.

    Americans want violence. And they are scared. They think violence is the answer to everything.
    And they don't seem to realize that violence is actually the problem. Not the solution.

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    That's not the problem.
    The problem is that Americans are brain-washed that everything has to be done individually. You can't do things together. That's the commie way, not the American way. Universal health-care is bad. Unions are bad. Social security is bad. Getting help is bad. Public TV is bad. The result is that the American citizens are badly organized. And the 1% is eating them whole. The 99% will kept being eaten, because they think it's a fair fight between the 1% and the 99%, and they are just unlucky. The whole fake narrative that every American should be a lone-ranger yankee hero is part of that.
    More stereotypes. Americans are not all libertarians you know. Not even most.

    It's really hard to believe you lived here since you usually talk in stereotypes to the point of absurdity.

  10. #60
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by catbarf View Post
    Also, seconding heywood's comments. For someone who says to have lived here I don't think you understand the American mindset. I know a number of concealed carriers and none of them are this paranoid always-ready-to-shoot caricature you describe. The mindset is much closer to 'rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it' than expecting a shootout at any moment.
    Everyone knows it's the open carry people who are the crazy ones. You know the type. They swagger into the local Circle K with a big ass revolver strapped to their hip, order a pack of chew, then stand in the corner, trying to get people to make eye contact with them so they can launch into a tirade about their rights.

    I can understand concealed carry, especially if someone live in a dangerous neighborhood. Like you, I know a few people who do have a license to do so, and they're far from crazy. But those people who walk into Wal-Mart sporting a tacticooled up super customized extended magazine AR15 (with the obligatory holosite kit installed) strapped to their back for all to see? They're either overcompensating for something, or are really desperate for attention.

    Also, I don't think those people own a single article of clothing that doesn't have a skull on it.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Americans want violence. And they are scared. They think violence is the answer to everything.
    There are so many different types of Americans, there isnt one definitive kind. From Milwaukee down to Chicago and all the little places in between, I see so many different types of people, and this whole "Americans are scared and violent" doesnt represent our population. Most folks that keep the country running are excellent hardworking people.

    Americans are free to be as different from each other as they want. That concept is one of the main reasons America is so awesome. There is no normal in the "melting pot". In my daily life, I see people from many different countries, all working together, daily, peacefully, it just never ends with this BS. I live right next to the worst crime rate in America, and I see the people of America, not scared or violent, but I do see them slowly waking up though...

    I get a little confused when people start to generalize "Americans", especially during topics like this. What "Americans" are you referring to? Are you speaking of the "Americans" of the world stage and in the media? Our government does whatever the fuck it wants, with very little regard to anyone, especially its own voters. What the US government does on the world stage does *NOT* represent the lives, attitudes, hopes, and dreams of the everyday working people of America that are forced to fund this whole charade.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by catbarf View Post
    I have to correct you slightly there in that the chart you posted is specifically correlating firearm homicides to firearm ownership, not homicides as a whole. But as you said, even if you completely ignore our firearm homicides, we still have a higher homicide rate than most first-world countries.

    And if you dismiss all stats from just our five biggest cities, the resulting homicide rate is lower than most of Europe. There's an inverse relationship in this country between gun ownership and gun violence, where cities like Chicago and Baltimore are centers for violence despite strict control, while the state of New Hampshire is armed to the teeth but overwhelmingly peaceful. That's not to suggest anything about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun control (let alone 'more guns will solve the problem'), rather that the problems we have are clearly more cultural and societal than simply access = violence.

    It's not an inverse relationship, though? More guns = more homicide and firearm homicide: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...uns-and-death/

    Also, I think that it's pretty safe to assume that it's the firearm homicides that are driving the homicide numbers up, not the other way around. Especially because the firearm homicide rate is so much higher. And I don't think culture alone explains the vast gulf between US and other high-income countries. US is not that dissimilar from, say, Australia.

    Also also, Chicago may have had strict gun laws in the past, but in reality they merely slightly inconvenienced the criminals, as all they had to do was to drive a bit to another state where guns were available without restrictions. This doesn't really prove anything about gun control other than it didn't work in Chicago for obvious reasons. It's like trying to stop a leak by putting a sieve under it.
    Last edited by Starker; 5th Oct 2017 at 22:01.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Everyone knows it's the open carry people who are the crazy ones. You know the type. They swagger into the local Circle K with a big ass revolver strapped to their hip, order a pack of chew, then stand in the corner, trying to get people to make eye contact with them so they can launch into a tirade about their rights.

    I can understand concealed carry, especially if someone live in a dangerous neighborhood. Like you, I know a few people who do have a license to do so, and they're far from crazy. But those people who walk into Wal-Mart sporting a tacticooled up super customized extended magazine AR15 (with the obligatory holosite kit installed) strapped to their back for all to see? They're either overcompensating for something, or are really desperate for attention.

    Also, I don't think those people own a single article of clothing that doesn't have a skull on it.
    Yeah, I know the type. I strongly dislike those people for a number of reasons. Thankfully they're an obnoxious minority. As much as I'd like to regulate open carry to make those obnoxious people stop being obnoxious, the issue is that keeping open carry on the books prevents a lot of stupidity from impacting responsible concealed carriers, like getting cited because your shirt rides up and suddenly you're 'open carrying'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    It's not an inverse relationship, though? More guns = more homicide and firearm homicide: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...uns-and-death/
    If you look at those studies, you'll notice these sorts of phrases in their abstracts.

    Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate
    After controlling for poverty and urbanization
    after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty)
    So yes, if you control for every factor besides firearm availability, then firearm availability affects firearm homicide rate. I wasn't denying that. My point is that factors like poverty, urbanization, and unemployment demonstrably have a far greater effect, and if you just look at our stats for a country as a whole you miss that our problem with gun violence is overwhelmingly concentrated in urban areas where guns are already hard to get, whereas in more rural areas where guns are everywhere our crime rate is downright European. Which is why we see that New Hampshire, Vermont, Oregon, and Idaho, four states with some of the laxest gun control legislation and highest rates of firearm ownership, also have some of the lowest crime and in particular homicide rates in the country. In spite of its extremely high firearm ownership rate, New Hampshire is safer than Canada. Clearly the sheer availability of firearms is not the driving factor here, so going after legally-owned firearms (disproportionately concentrated in the areas of the country where they're not being used to commit crimes) is at best indirectly treating the symptoms rather than addressing the actual cause.

    I'd much rather spend our effort on statistically significant factors in gun crime (eg handguns, straw purchase), the root social issues that lead to gun violence in the first place, and the seriousness of our appalling suicide rate, than waste effort with partisan fighting over assault weapons and gun shows that primarily seems to be about Making A Statement rather than addressing the problem.
    Last edited by catbarf; 5th Oct 2017 at 22:17.

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Certainly, I didn't mean to imply that the availability of firearms alone is what drives crime up, although having guns so readily available surely doesn't help. But the presence or absence of gun laws alone doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything either. For example, it matters whether the laws are actually being enforced, such as straw purchases getting a mild slap on the wrist or going unpunished entirely.

    The way I see it, it's not an either-or situation. It's not like you couldn't spend effort both on social issues and have effective gun control laws. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why things like universal background checks and waiting periods are so controversial in the first place.
    Last edited by Starker; 5th Oct 2017 at 22:58.

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    It's not like you couldn't spend effort both on social issues and have effective gun control laws.
    In general you'll find that the politicians opposed to gun control are also opposed to any other pro-active measures, as well. For them, it's just a convenient distraction.

  16. #66
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I don't think background checks or waiting periods or tech restrictions will make any real dent in the largest numbers of gun deaths.

    I think what would make the biggest dents would be (1) better depression counseling and some program to get guns away from suicidal people, and (2) legalize drugs and economically develop urban areas. Get at the root of the problem or you're just handwaving.

  17. #67
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    More stereotypes. Americans are not all libertarians you know. Not even most.
    I know America is a big country. I've mostly been in California (Silicon Valley). I've been a few times for a week in Washington DC and in North-Carolina. And I've visited other places (LA, Florida, Minneapolis, Memphis, etc). I know there is a huge difference between the two Coasts and everything in between.

    The people I used to work with (collegues, customers) were all highly educated people, with very good jobs. Probably mostly Democrats. And even those people I've sometimes heard say the weirdest things. I remember a 30-year old guy, network architect at UUnet (what is now Verizon, AS701) tell me that he bought a gun for safety. He lived around Washington (Fairfax, I believe). I've been there, it's a very nice area. You can't call that a bad neighborhood. I've been to Raleigh a few times. It was weird to see notices at the door telling you that you can't carry your gun inside the office.

    I know there are many sane people in the US. Most of the people I've worked with were just normal people. But overall, the average American is different from the average European. (And I think the European are way more different amongst themselves. If not only because of language). And your average American voted Trump into office. That's something that says something. Like I wrote, I've never heard any European argue they wanted a gun or needed a gun. Or that they thought that it would be good if every Tom Dick and Harry was allowed to carry one. Or even own one.

    Also, that whole discussion about "good neighborhoods" and "bad neighborhoods" is weird. I know some suburbs around Paris are bad. But I've never heard of neighborhoods in NL, BE, Germany, or even the UK where you can't walk around because "it's a bad neighborhood". I've actually lived for 2.5 years in the worst neighborhood in our country (Amsterdam South-East, aka The Bijlmer). It wasn't fun, it was a poor area, half the people were immigrants. But I never felt unsafe. There was criminality, more than anywhere else, but that didn't mean you'd get mugged or shot if you walk outside (not even during the evening).

    I remember in 2001, I was driving up north to San Francisco. Via 285. Almost there. A few cars overtook me. Going slightly faster than the speed-limit. So I followed them. Then a police-car showed up. Made me stop. The other cars were allowed to continue. So I did what I always do at home. As soon as I stopped, I took my drivers-license. Got out of the car and walked to the police car. Then when the police officer gets out of his car, I am there already, to shake his hand, and ask "how can I help you, officer". So I did that here too. The police officer almost got a heart-attack. He told me to never ever do that again. He told me that would be a sure way to get shot by a police officer some day. You need to sit behind the wheel and wait. This was in 2001, in a very wealthy area of the country. Now I can understand that people are surprised if you do something that is different from local customs. But I found it weird that that could be a reason to get shot in the head.

    Anyway, my point is: having guns around changes how people perceive other people. It changes society. And not for the better. Most gun debates center around the question whether gun-laws would bring down murder-rates or not. Or gun-related accidents. I don't think that is the biggest issue. Imho guns change society in a much more fundamental way that just changing the murder statistics. And it seems nobody in the US realizes that. Weird.

  18. #68
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Goldmoon Dawn View Post
    There are so many different types of Americans, there isnt one definitive kind.
    Of course that is true.
    But when I watch Fox News, I really wonder who the hell is watching that. And Fox News is not something in the fringes. It's the most watched news show in the US. (Was, I just read it was overtaken by MSNBC). The things that are said there are so outrageuous, such lies, such propaganda, it is unbelievable that such things can be said at all. I'm all for freedom of speech. But when the population is brainwashed like that, you need to change something. And then I'm not even talking about Breitbart or Alex Jones or stuff like that.

    From Milwaukee down to Chicago and all the little places in between, I see so many different types of people, and this whole "Americans are scared and violent" doesnt represent our population. Most folks that keep the country running are excellent hardworking people.
    They did vote Trump in office.

    I understand how American people don't like the political establishment. I don't like the establishment myself. I always vote no. I'm against everything. I'm a commie, I'm an anarchist, I'm a revolutionist. No crazy idea is too crazy for me. But voting Trump in office ? You must be really dumb to do that. Or a real ass-hole. Maybe a white supremacist, or an old fashioned ultra-conservative. Or just poor and really really dumb. And in the end, everybody can tell me Americans are such nice people, but they did vote Trump in office. That is a fact.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 6th Oct 2017 at 03:17.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Of course that is true.
    But when I watch Fox News, I really wonder who the hell is watching that. And Fox News is not something in the fringes. It's the most watched news show in the US. (Was, I just read it was overtaken by MSNBC). The things that are said there are so outrageuous, such lies, such propaganda, it is unbelievable that such things can be said at all. I'm all for freedom of speech. But when the population is brainwashed like that, you need to change something. And then I'm not even talking about Breitbart or Alex Jones or stuff like that.


    They did vote Trump in office.

    I understand how American people don't like the political establishment. I don't like the establishment myself. I always vote no. I'm against everything. I'm a commie, I'm an anarchist, I'm a revolutionist. No crazy idea is too crazy for me. But voting Trump in office ? You must be really dumb to do that. Or a real ass-hole. Maybe a white supremacist, or an old fashioned ultra-conservative. Or just poor and really really dumb. And in the end, everybody can tell me Americans are such nice people, but they did vote Trump in office. That is a fact.
    You're actually a pro-authority anarchist, in favor of state controlled or regulated weapons, media, and health care. I don't think you're an anarchist. I think you're actually quite the opposite, and I think there are a lot of ideas that you consider too crazy. Such as allowing an armed citizenry. To you, that's too crazy. I think you're honestly more comfortable with the idea of "subjects" than "citizens", to be ruled over, protected, and provided for by a strong and rather authoritarian government.

    I think catbarf has a good point about how the homicide/violence rate in this country is skewed by a few outliers. Out of curiosity I looked up the murder rate/firearm murder rate in my county. The overall homicide rate is 1.02 per 100,000, which is on par with Australia, England, or Denmark. The firearm murder rate (four of the six total murders involved firearms) was 6.8 per million, which is on par with Sweden (rate of 6.5). Source. I'm curious how those rates hold up on a county to county equivalence (removing the Chicagos from Australia, for example). What's the Australian rate outside of the inner cities?

    I live in a pretty typical US suburb, I think, based on my travels in the US. In my state, no license is required to carry a gun openly or concealed. For general clarification, concealed carry doesn't give you the right to carry a gun anywhere you want. Any privately owned establishment can ban weapons on their property, and most public buildings are exempted from allowing concealed or open carry. In my city, it's rare that you could carry a gun into any building. I think that reduces the amount of concealed carry, because no one wants to get caught carrying illegally and no one wants to leave a gun in their car.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: 210x200x64
    You can't un-ring the bell. The US population is armed for a good reason and history is replete with examples of what happens when governments start radical gun control measures: 1911 Turkey 1.5 million rounded up and exterminated, Soviet Union 1929 20 million, Germany 1938 13 million, China 1935 20 million, Guatemala 1964 100,000, Uganda 1970 300,000 , Cambodia 1956 1 million. When only the government is armed things can get a bit dicey for those who aren't on the right side of what to think, say and do. With the current trend towards radical socialism in the US, people like this woman https://www.bizjournals.com/newyork/...tml?yptr=yahoo frighten me a lot more than guns do.

  21. #71
    Yeah, I'm sure the US government would be *really* concerned about small arms fire if they decided to turn on the populace.

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: 210x200x64
    The number of trained and armed federal agents pales in comparison to the number of "...well regulated Militia"

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure the US government would be *really* concerned about small arms fire if they decided to turn on the populace.
    Well, yeah, they would. I mean, I'm not huge on the whole 'resisting tyranny' aspect of American gun ownership, but it's rather unreasonable to expect that police or Army regulars are going to be keen on going door-to-door on their former friends and neighbors pulling a Mujahideen 2: Electric Boogaloo. The government may have tanks and Hellfires, but those have much more significant repercussions to their use (eg the likelihood of mutiny when they're deployed against civilians) than just sending in riot police.

  24. #74
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Draxil View Post
    You're actually a pro-authority anarchist, in favor of state controlled or regulated weapons, media, and health care. I don't think you're an anarchist. I think you're actually quite the opposite, and I think there are a lot of ideas that you consider too crazy. Such as allowing an armed citizenry. To you, that's too crazy. I think you're honestly more comfortable with the idea of "subjects" than "citizens", to be ruled over, protected, and provided for by a strong and rather authoritarian government.
    I support the freedom of the individual.
    But I think corporations need to be kept in check. With all means possible, because corporations have no conscience. Most corporations will be as much scumbaggy as the law allows them to be scumbags.

    I also think common goods should be managed by the people. Government is the representation of the common people. (Americans don't seem to get that anymore). Health-care, infrastructure, police, social security, etc, should all be handled by the government. By us. Not by greedy capitalistic bastards. Maybe schools too. These things are too important to give in the hands of people who's only goal is to make a profit. The issue is not the right of the people to chose between one scumbag or another scumbag. The issue is that the people have the right to basic needs, without being handed over to the mercy of capitalistic pigs.

    Guns is something different. I don't see the point of citizens having guns. Neither does the rest of the world. Weapons are only an issue in the US.
    Government, establishment, the 1%, the large corporations, don't care if citizens have guns or not. It doesn't impact them. They rather see the population constantly bicker about their right to carry guns, or bicker about abortion, or muslims. In stead of people protesting against more important issues, like how the 1% is getting richer, and everyone else is getting poorer. That's why they encourage you to fight for those unimportant things. So you forget the real fight.

  25. #75
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by SlyFoxx View Post
    With the current trend towards radical socialism in the US, ...
    You are completely delusional. You have no idea what socialism or radical socialism is.

    The US is an ultra-conservative, ultra-right-wing nation. Your utmost leftish commie politicians are still far right of European right-wing politicians.

    If there is a trend in the US into any direction, it is in the direction of fascism.

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