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Thread: Exposing Sexual Harassment...

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    But I think what's on debate here is more of the mundane everyday Mad Men behaviour. The boss that pats the secretary's ass and calls her sugartits. For some reason that gets people more off than real crimes. Perhaps because it's more relatable. Haven't we all felt humiliated at our job at some point? I know I have.
    Great, now imagine being humiliated every day. Imagine not getting promoted and getting paid less because of attitudes like this. Imagine having to deal with all of this unasked bullshit when you're just trying to do your job. Mad Men style sexism may seem harmless to you, but maybe you might think differently when you're constantly being on the receiving end of the joke.

  2. #52
    Harassment and bullying should always be viewed from the victim's angle. If someone truly feels harassed/bullied, then that's what's going on even if the perpetrators don't mean it that way. Sometimes the solution is to change behaviour, other times the solution may be to seperate people.

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    I think its great to discuss the on-going debate on what is and isn't harrassment.

    One persons acceptable behavior is anothers terrible/unacceptable. All of it is individually based, some of it cultural and some are religion based. And then some are just on the over-sensitive based.

    Over here in Australia, a year ago (if I remember right) and at the end of a televised cricket match between Australia and Zimbabwe. An attractive female news reporter was interviewing the captain of Zimbabwe at the end of which the captain on camera asked out the reporter. She was completely shocked and acted like he'd crossed the line. Talk after in the media was that that was sexual harrassment and that he should be sacked, whilst on the opposite end others argued that this was just political correctness gone crazy.



    I considered it harmless. Have a watch and lets see which side your on.
    I think that was inappropriate and unprofessional. If I were his boss, he wouldn't be sacked, but he wouldn't be a captain and he wouldn't be doing any more interviews either!

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
    Harassment and bullying should always be viewed from the victim's angle. If someone truly feels harassed/bullied, then that's what's going on even if the perpetrators don't mean it that way. Sometimes the solution is to change behaviour, other times the solution may be to seperate people.
    The catch 22 there is that what is and isn't classed as "sexual harassment" varies from country to country, and people coming from a country with more conservative views and customs may feel like they've been harassed in a country with more relaxed laws.

    In some cultures it's considered offensive for a female to touch the hand of a male that she's not married/going out with. Now you may say well that's just stupid, but to the person touched they'd consider it sexual harassment based on their culture. And if the "offender" did not know about the "victim's" custom, then is that still sexual harassment?

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Yeah, thats fine.

    The topic is certainly worthy and this is the only thread to discuss it. However, dont freak out and go nutso when I come back with the latest crazy video of who done what! Okay there Kolya?

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    The headline news here today is that a senior Welsh politician who was sacked on Friday over numerous accusations of serious sexual misconduct has today killed himself.

    I worry now that the victims of his behaviour (no need to qualify it with 'alleged' now that he's a corpse) will become the targets for people's venom. Already we have the usual suspects screaming about a witch-hunt.

  7. #57
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    I worry now that the victims of his behaviour (no need to qualify it with 'alleged' now that he's a corpse) will become the targets for people's venom. Already we have the usual suspects screaming about a witch-hunt.
    Of course they will be. It's the usual ebb and flow of social discourse these days, where the victim is as much a perpetrator of their own suffering as the perpetrators themselves.

    Hell, you can't even have a toddler shot in schools these days without people sending their parents death threats.

  8. #58
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    Renz, I can't make sense of that last sentence - what are you referring to?

    This is another thread on this topic going wonky. The sports interview thing might be interesting but it's more about respectful behaviour than harassment.

    Pyrian, and others have tried to bring us back to talking about serious cases of harassment, which is more valuable than talking about the blurry edges of what constitutes harassment. It's also pointless reacting against breaking reports before there is more information.

    Also without more women chipping in this is going round in circles.

  9. #59
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I'm not sure I agree, scumble. I keep meaning to chip in but get distracted by wandering off into other things. It's perfectly obvious that most TTLG men know exactly where the line is so I don't see my female point of view as more valuable particularly. What I think has already been stated. Most TTLG men reassure me that the world can be OK.

    On the whole, men are the ones who harass (obviously there are exceptions) so men trying to work out what is or isn't harassment seems appropriate and could possibly be useful to some people. Endless posting of the latest scandal may be what the OP intended but it's not something I'd want to waste my time on.

    I didn't think the Gayle thing was harassment but I didn't see it as harmless either. If he'd stopped before the 'don't blush, baby', he'd have been fine. I don't think he meant to offend but I'd suggest he didn't see women as equals and didn't see the reporter as a professional person in a professional situation.

    Pertaining to Icemann's point, in Sheffield in the UK, men call everyone 'love'. Which produces interesting reactions in men new to the area. Mostly it happens in pubs and you can see men bristling and consider whether a punch is the right response until they realise they'd like another pint so they want the barman upright. And then they get used to it and after a while, it isn't seen as offensive.

    We need to teach our children how to say 'no' firmly, clearly and politely, and when to do it. Too often we just tell them to do what they're told and then send them out into the world thinking they're emotionally equipped to deal with shite.

  10. #60
    Mistaken for a man
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Helsinki, Finland
    I don't really know what to say, because the range is way too wide. In the other end there's simple hormone-driven yee-haw rowdy young men's thoughtlessness, which obviously does have cultural roots, but also biological. The catcalls and whistles and "Hey babe, my place or yours?", openly ogling a girl's body etc.

    In the opposite end there's creepy stalking, rape, using position of power in a workplace to pressure an employee to do sexual favours, and other truly serious shit.

    And somewhere in the middle is the behaviour where men "only jokingly" pat butts, squeeze tits and do other way inappropriate stuff that's demeaning, objectifying and clearly harassing, but still it's more just annoying as hell than scary and damaging.

    AND then there's the difference how individuals interpret and experience each unique situation. AND there's also the fact that men are on average physically stronger than women, so the more harmless situations might have a risk of escalating if the woman tells the guy to fuck off.
    Trying to say something sensible to cover the whole clusterfuck would make the mother of all monster posts!

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Location: Darmstadt, Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    In some cultures it's considered offensive for a female to touch the hand of a male that she's not married/going out with. Now you may say well that's just stupid, but to the person touched they'd consider it sexual harassment based on their culture. And if the "offender" did not know about the "victim's" custom, then is that still sexual harassment?
    I'd say it's on the visiting person to know about the guest's culture/country's laws and customs and behave accordingly. That goes especially for the guest if he's the "offender", but also somewhat if (s)he's the victim. Say, if I was coming from a culture, where it's normal to slap random women on the ass and was going to a country, where that's a no-no, then I'd better keep my hands in my pockets or stay the hell out of that country. It would be my responsibility to make sure I don't break any laws or customs.

    On the other hand, if I wanted to go to a country where slapping people on the ass is socially accepted, then I'd either have to accept and bear the possibility of getting slapped on the ass, or otherwise not go to the country in the first place. Public displays of affection not allowed in country X? No problem, there are scores of other countries where that's not a problem and that would be glad to have our vacation money. Rape too prevalent in country Y, due to women being seen as chattel? See above.

    Might sound like victim blaming, but it's not meant that way. To give an extreme example - if I go to Syria for my vacation and get killed, then it would obviously be partly my fault for going to a war zone in the first place. If I was killed deliberately and not by a stray shot, then my killer should equally obviously be put on trial and punished.

    About that sports video - if he'd chosen his words a bit more carefully it would have been fine from my point of view. "Don't blush, baby" pushes it a bit over the line, in my opinion. Still, a pretty mild "offense", as such things go. Too much political correctness is not good, either.

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    I was sexually harassed when I was about 17 I realise now, even possibly groomed. I was working checkout at a supermarket, and this older lady (probly 30 ish) would keep coming to my checkout every few days, smile and chat being a bit flirty. Thought it was harmless, but then one day she waited for my lunch break, basically accosted me and said she was buying me lunch. Ok I thought, free lunch why not?
    So we are sitting down eating and suddenly her hand is on my thigh, then creeping toward my crotch. I was shocked and stunned and didnt know what to do so just sat there quickly finished my food and said had to get back to work and left. It was very confusing, on one hand I was kinda flattered that a grown woman would consider me attractive, but I also felt a bit scared and intimidated, very uneasy feeling really.
    So the next day she comes through my checkout again, and gives me her number and tells me to call her. I never did but after that she would keep coming into the shop or trying to catch me on my breaks. I started to dread going to work so I ended up quitting and never going back that particular shopping centre again.
    That was pretty benign harassment I guess, I can only imagine what it must be like in more serious cases.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Minecraft
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    I worry now that the victims of his behaviour (no need to qualify it with 'alleged' now that he's a corpse)
    Are you saying that 'Innocent until proven guilty' goes out the window if the accused commits suicide? While it could be an admission of guilt, it could also be from pressure of his assumed guilt. Given how people who have been accused of sexual assault have been treated in the media, being innocent of such accusations but labeled as guilty could well push people to drastic acts. I'd prefer to get the full story before dropping the 'alleged' from such allegations.

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Have to second that. Often the treatment by the public who assume guilt before innocense often destroys the life of a person entirely. And many of those affected are later proven innocent.

  15. #65
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Vasquez is right - the range is too wide but I think she managed to include everything in her post.

    Quote Originally Posted by PigLick View Post
    That was pretty benign harassment I guess, I can only imagine what it must be like in more serious cases.
    It doesn't sound very benign to me. The upshot was you were so uncomfortable you left your job. You, the victim, had to make changes to avoid the harassment. That's not right. What should have happened was that you should have been able to talk to someone at work and been believed and the woman in question should have been asked to take her custom elsewhere - at the very least. She should have been reported to the police.

  16. #66
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    I'm not sure I agree, scumble. I keep meaning to chip in but get distracted by wandering off into other things. It's perfectly obvious that most TTLG men know exactly where the line is so I don't see my female point of view as more valuable particularly. What I think has already been stated. Most TTLG men reassure me that the world can be OK.
    That might be true, but now I've read your post I think it's worth being there. I know you and Vas were hovering around, and dj_ivocha added something too. Dia isn't alone any more!

    I think what tends to grate on me when there are discussions on this topic is an element of "boys will be boys" reasoning. The reaction to some women feeling harassed from unwanted male attention that seems mild does go back into claims that men find women attractive because of wiring and this is to be expected. Having read a bit about gender stereotypes and books on parenting boys to more rounded emotionally I get annoyed with dismissals of boys essentially behaving like assholes because they're "just being boys".

    I think it's related to your comment about how you bring up children. I've read about men having severe issues because they were arbitrarily cut off from physical affection at the age of 5. Buried emotional neglect can come out as warped sexuality later on.

    I would say there's more that can be done in working on healthy emotional development of boys than coming up with more rules about what's acceptable. We've already seen that rules don't really prevent harassment although they might help, and more is down to a proportion of men being screwed up emotionally.

    I suppose I feel less encouraged about progress in that regard because I often feel like humans have to evolve further from their animal roots, and rationality is still often losing to baser desires for power. Fundamentally the power structures in civilisation haven't changed much, they get recycled into something more palatable. We don't get so much of women literally being treated as chattel overall, but I don't think we can say women are as influential as men. You only have to look at the female representation in government to see that's true.

    That got a bit philosophical. Yet I do think the harassment topic has deeper roots that aren't going to be captured by the noise in internet debate.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    Quote Originally Posted by nickie View Post
    Vasquez is right - the range is too wide but I think she managed to include everything in her post.

    It doesn't sound very benign to me. The upshot was you were so uncomfortable you left your job. You, the victim, had to make changes to avoid the harassment. That's not right. What should have happened was that you should have been able to talk to someone at work and been believed and the woman in question should have been asked to take her custom elsewhere - at the very least. She should have been reported to the police.
    It was the early 90's, the term "sexual harassment" wasnt even in my vocabulary.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by driver View Post
    Are you saying that 'Innocent until proven guilty' goes out the window if the accused commits suicide?
    Not so much; rather that, while allegations of harassment from one person could be malicious and false, allegations from multiple sources reduce that likelihood considerably. If you have women queuing up to accuse you of inappropriate behaviour, it's a done deal in my book.

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Minecraft
    Have they said how many people came forward and what he was alleged to have done? Last I heard not even Sargeant himself knew who/how many had accused him or what it was exactly he had apparently done.
    Last edited by driver; 8th Nov 2017 at 18:38. Reason: grammar

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    Not so much; rather that, while allegations of harassment from one person could be malicious and false, allegations from multiple sources reduce that likelihood considerably. If you have women queuing up to accuse you of inappropriate behaviour, it's a done deal in my book.
    So if I can find a few people willing to accuse you of being a murderer, we don't need evidence anymore I guess. Case closed, off to prison with you.

    Why is it that otherwise intelligent people lose their grip on rationality in this matter and are willing to reject all achievements of western civilization in favour of revengeful emotions?

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    So if I can find a few people willing to accuse you of being a murderer, we don't need evidence anymore I guess. Case closed, off to prison with you.
    You probably ought to have a corpse first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    Why is it that otherwise intelligent people lose their grip on rationality in this matter and are willing to reject all achievements of western civilization in favour of revengeful emotions?
    Who is losing their grip on rationality? This is purely and simply a probability calculation. Ain't nothing more rational than that.

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Why would I need a corpse? That's evidence, which you don't require in other cases. Accusations aren't good enough anymore?

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Location: Darmstadt, Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by scumble View Post
    That might be true, but now I've read your post I think it's worth being there. I know you and Vas were hovering around, and dj_ivocha added something too. Dia isn't alone any more!
    I think Dia would have been in for a disappointment, if not for Vas and nickie.

  24. #74
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    It was just a matter of time... (as if everyone didnt already know this)

    Charlie Sheen accused of raping Corey Haim.

    Whatcha gonna do, eh?


  25. #75
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    If you have women queuing up to accuse you of inappropriate behaviour, it's a done deal in my book.
    Oh really?

    I'll quote myself from another thread:

    I personally know of a doctor (a GP, father of a friend of mine) who was accused of inappropriately touching a female patient. When word got out a few (three I think) other women came forward to say the same. He was suspended. Guilty, right?

    We'll it turns out the first woman had done the same to her last 3 doctors and they were all found innocent.

    And the other women?. This doctor had. never. ever. met. them.

    The case was kicked out.


    So SD, bollocks. The like of which only you can come out with.

    The term "no smoke without fire" is the preserve of the severely intellectually challenged, the ignorant, the addled and stains upon humanity. If you think rationale has anything to do with it you can't have learnt much about humanity on your short, wasteful time on this planet.
    Last edited by SubJeff; 9th Nov 2017 at 17:12.

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