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Thread: Exposing Sexual Harassment...

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    So if I can find a few people willing to accuse you...
    Not accusations, Kolya. Witnesses. SubJeff may want physical evidence for everything, but that's never been how the justice system works. A conviction can come from a single credible witness.

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Though how do you quantify "credible" ?
    Last edited by icemann; 10th Nov 2017 at 03:07.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    Though how do you quantity "credible" ?
    Probably the same way it was defined in the trials that led to a lot of black men in the old south being killed.

    "Credible" usually means "female and white".

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    "Credible" usually means "female and white".
    Do get over yourself.

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Not accusations, Kolya. Witnesses.
    SD mentioned "allegations from multiple sources". By my understanding that's accusers not witnesses. Could be both I guess.

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Oh really?

    I'll quote myself from another thread:

    I personally know of a doctor (a GP, father of a friend of mine) who was accused of inappropriately touching a female patient. When word got out a few (three I think) other women came forward to say the same. He was suspended. Guilty, right?

    We'll it turns out the first woman had done the same to her last 3 doctors and they were all found innocent.

    And the other women?. This doctor had. never. ever. met. them.

    The case was kicked out.


    So SD, bollocks. The like of which only you can come out with.

    The term "no smoke without fire" is the preserve of the severely intellectually challenged, the ignorant, the addled and stains upon humanity. If you think rationale has anything to do with it you can't have learnt much about humanity on your short, wasteful time on this planet.

    You're certainly an expert on comparing apples and oranges, I will give you that.

    I will cling to my rationalism, and you can keep thinking that women shouldn't be believed when they come forward with tales of abuse and harassment, or whatever your dumb point was supposed to be.

  7. #82
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    My point was simple. Are you really too simple to get it?

    You said "If you have women queuing up to accuse you of inappropriate behaviour, it's a done deal in my book." and I gave you just one example of where you would have been completely wrong.

    Are you really that spiteful and stupid that you'd have said "it's a done deal" and believed this innocent man was guilty just because 4 women had said so? You'd have been wrong.

    What the hell is going on in your head?

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    You're certainly an expert on comparing apples and oranges, I will give you that.

    I will cling to my rationalism, and you can keep thinking that women shouldn't be believed when they come forward with tales of abuse and harassment, or whatever your dumb point was supposed to be.
    So there's only these two options, we either believe the allegations or we don't, white knight or dark side. And the only rational tool at our disposal to make that decision is the law of probability, which is known to work really well in social contexts.

    If you can read German I recommend these two recent articles on the matter by German federal judge Thomas Fischer:
    In #MeToo: Ich auch! Ich auch! he discusses the narcissist background of this campaign.
    And in Sexismus: Mr. Spacey und wir he asks for some much needed proportionality in the debate.

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Minecraft
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    You're certainly an expert on comparing apples and oranges, I will give you that.

    I will cling to my rationalism, and you can keep thinking that women shouldn't be believed when they come forward with tales of abuse and harassment, or whatever your dumb point was supposed to be.
    Believing someone (anyone) who makes a claim without proof is daft, just as instantly dismissing them would be. If one, several, or many woman come forward accusing an individual of sexual harassment then their claims should be investigated. Neither taken at face value or discarded out of hand. The quantity of allegations should be irrelevant, it's the quality that matters.

    As far as the Carl Sargeant case goes, it now looks as if he was suffering from mental health issues either brought on by or exacerbated by bullying within the party. Whilst it's still possible that the allegations are true, I haven't seen anything in the news about them being corroborated or otherwise proven in any way.

  10. #85
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    I can't read German - yet another of my lacks.

    I find myself being pulled in two different directions. In my 'era', women were either not believed or hushed up so I find the change in that to be a move in a better direction. But I believe in innocent till proven guilty. And that has to take place in a court of law no matter how credible the allegations.

    But I also doubt that many court cases will take place. So you're left with the court of public opinion and I've always tended to think it's too rabid for my liking.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/8464359.stm
    Jeremy Piven has taken to social media to defend himself against claims of sexual harassment.
    The Wisdom of the Crowd actor took to Twitter to deny any improper behavior toward women, saying that “the accusations against me are absolutely false and completely fabricated.”
    Another woman, advertising executive Tiffany Bacon Scourby, went public with claims of sexual harassment by Piven on Thursday, bringing the total number to three.

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    My point was simple. Are you really too simple to get it?

    You said "If you have women queuing up to accuse you of inappropriate behaviour, it's a done deal in my book." and I gave you just one example of where you would have been completely wrong.

    Are you really that spiteful and stupid that you'd have said "it's a done deal" and believed this innocent man was guilty just because 4 women had said so? You'd have been wrong.

    What the hell is going on in your head?
    I guess I'm just not prepared to believe that most women who accuse men of harassment are just making it up. If that makes me "simple", so be it.

  13. #88
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I don't think that either. Your strawman game persists after all these years.

    I think the majority of women who accuse men of harassment will be telling the truth.

    There will be a few who misread the situation and a few who have genuine mental health issues (as I believe the women who came forward to accuse that GP without ever being his patients, meeting or even seeing him were).

    Finally there will be a tiny proportion who are just liars because of whatever.

    But the proportions are irrelevant. The fact that there WILL be false accusations means you have to gather evidence. Without proper process there would be chaos. I though you worked for the police or something. I thought you were educated.

    For reference I suggest you do some reading about the number of women who have been convicted due to lying about sexual assault in the last few years. It's not an insignificant number.

  14. #89
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Agreeing with SD here. When dozens of people come out with similar stories of harassment/assault (Cosby, Weinstein), it's probably true. Sure, there will be that one in a million exception that Subjeff mentioned, but it's not common enough to even think about.

    And we're talking about an individual's opinion here, not a court of law. Obviously different standards apply there.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: The Land of Make Believe
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    I don't think that either. Your strawman game persists after all these years.
    As does your inability to disagree without personal attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    I think the majority of women who accuse men of harassment will be telling the truth.
    If you accept that women making accusations are usually justified in doing so, what is your problem with me applying that probability as a general rule?

  16. #91
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by SD View Post
    If you accept that women making accusations are usually justified in doing so, what is your problem with me applying that probability as a general rule?
    I've already answered this - because it sometimes isn't true.

    Tell me again about how you're in favour of the death penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    but it's not common enough to even think about.
    Oh please.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Let's not forget that some of these are stories where professional journalists, who put their career on the line or at least make themselves liable for defamation, have deemed it credible enough to publish and where there are enough details to make a reasonable guess at what had happened. With Harvey Weinstein, there are multiple witnesses who told about it to someone at the time. There was even a tape where he admits to harassing a woman. I'd say there is enough evidence here to make up your mind even without a court decision. Just because someone is not guilty in the eyes of the law or hasn't been sentenced (yet), doesn't mean that they didn't do it or that they cannot be fired or that everybody has to treat them like nothing had happened.
    Last edited by Starker; 10th Nov 2017 at 18:12.

  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    I'd say ruining people's livelihood is pretty much the opposite of treating them like nothing had happened. And that's what's happening, not just to Weinstein. So this sounds like a bit of an understatement of what is going on. Namely a zealous hysterical mob trying to make justice outside of court. A virtual cleansing of Hollywood by all the leftovers and hillbillies who helped finance it, lusted for it and now act as if they never heard about a casting couch. American morals are perverted because of puritanical hypocrisy as much as the abuse it bears under covers. I'd wager the reason that this doesn't seem to bother you is because you think the mob is right this time. But mob mentality is never right. Should have learned as much by now.

  19. #94
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Oh please.
    Oh please yourself. You're bringing up some bullshit isolated example which is fucking paper thin on solid evidence. Three females who never even met the doctor? Are you serious? As if there there wouldn't be documentation and witnesses to shoot that shit down in like 2 seconds.

    Sorry, completely different universe from what we're talking about here.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    I'd say ruining people's livelihood is pretty much the opposite of treating them like nothing had happened.
    Yet, for years, that's exactly what happened. And what about all the victims and those women who rejected him and whose careers suffered? What about future victims? What about their livelihood? At the very least, people need to be warned about guys like him.

    Yes, I'm not bothered by Weinstein getting skewered by the press and his career potentially being ruined, but you on the other hand are acting like what he did wasn't really a big deal. But it is a big deal. And it's still a big deal without a guilty verdict in a court.
    Last edited by Starker; 11th Nov 2017 at 01:24.

  21. #96
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    isolated example
    There are a lot of recent example. Google it. A woman in the UK was sentenced to 10 years for this a few months ago:
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ms-jemma-beale

    The rareness of this is irrelevant. It happens. Use Google and you'll see there are loads of examples of this in the last 5 years.

    I don't know how much more I can help you. I'm not saying don't investigate, I'm saying don't finalise judgement until the investigation concludes.
    Last edited by SubJeff; 11th Nov 2017 at 04:17.

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Great, more bullshit allegations, this time against Louie. Never been a fan of america, but I'm pretty disgusted at it currently.. I get that it's the new meme to accuse someone of something and get a big reaction - it's a nice high. But this is a very callous and shit meme. Unlike pepe the frog, doge, harambe etc. this has real consequences for real people. Even if some of these accusations are real (or arguably all of them), they still shouldn't damage a person's professional career, which just so happens to be rather unrelated to their personal life. If the crime is so heinous, send them to jail, rather than just destroy their lives at the whims of a few dissatisfied customers. Especially when there's no proof of any kind and potentiall it's instead just a few loosely teamed up people that just want to be horrible people. No reason to believe one over the other, if we're being quite real here.

    Will America grow up? Maybe in a few centuries if we make it that far. But that's a wild guess.
    Last edited by Thor; 11th Nov 2017 at 04:41.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Louis C.K. has already come out and said that the allegations are true. He said he never should've done it in a lengthy statement, strangely without actually apologizing to the women involved. So the allegations are not bullshit. And they're not just part of his personal life, but his professional life as well. Women who wanted to work with him had him coming up to them, stripping naked and masturbating in front of them. This deserves to become public, because otherwise this behavior would've continued and Louis would've made more women feel severely uncomfortable and maybe even traumatized.

  24. #99
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    I'd appreciate a little bit more civility please. This might be a charged topic but I'd prefer not to see ad hominem attacks creep in.

  25. #100
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Please detail these ad hominem attacks scumble.

    Who are you talking about?

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