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Thread: Exposing Sexual Harassment...

  1. #101
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Interesting development with Louis CK admitting everything and Jeremy Piven denying everything.

    I suppose Jeremy Piven should just resign, eh SD and Brethren?

    It doesn't matter if he's innocent, how he or his family will suffer - more than one woman has accused him so it's a done deal? Right?

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    The problem to me is how does this happen?

    Anybody with some self esteem doesn't let themselves get talked out of their pants against their will.
    And if you got drugged out of your pants UNINTENTIONALLY,
    anybody with some self esteem should call the police and report it.
    Like the next day, not 15-30 years later after somebody else said the same thing.

    And then you've got people who seem to get their OWN POWER TRIP,
    fishing around for things to accuse somebody of sexual harassment about.
    "That guy said hi to me and then he burped suggestively. I feel harassed!"

    Or, 58 alleged grope victims of Donald Trump who suddenly appeared 10 days before the election,
    and then just as suddenly disappeared back into thin air after that didn't knock him out of the election.

    Or the rollingstone frat house rape debacle...
    I've seen people ABUSE sexual harassment allegations.

    So although I wouldn't want that to happen to anybody,
    I dont see how any kind of serious weinstein level harassment could happen against your own will.
    And trying to fish around too hard for it becasue your on a mission to find it and fight against it,
    leads to some people inventing it themselves just so they can start fights for their own glory.

    Thats whats wrong across the board with the whole "playing outraged" or "playing victim" culture.
    It abuses actual victims by mixing them in with opportunists.

    And if you say that all the opportunists make it worth helping the victims,
    it doesn't when those opportunists are driving people apart and starting fights across the nation and casting doubt on those victims.

    And dont tell me how dare I doubt such an accusation either.
    Thats a serious accusation, a crime.
    And you have to prove the crime, not just accuse the crime and thats the proof.

    Let me ask you this,
    what leads to sexual harassment?
    Do you think hyper-sexualizing everything in the media might lead to trying to imitate that in the real world.
    Do you think all the pornography on the internet is okay becasue they're adults and chose to do it?
    If thats okay, dont you think that people are going to think that its okay.

    Sometimes I suspect that there are people who like to create problems themselves, just so they can play outraged about.
    But the problem is really them, becasue they're the ones creating it.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    For Louie - "professional life" and "traumatized women", I'm sure. If you really, really try to stretch it, then - kindof, sortof, almost.

    So it's weird that he does that, but at the same time I'm not surprised - it would be more weird if his jokes had no truth to them. And anyway, this shouldn't be affecting his career in any way in the long term (and it probably won't), no matter how much some people would like it to. People who act like that have more than likely done far worse things in their lives (and real talk, those actions aren't even bad things, just strange and kind of awkward for the accepted norms). If those were spotlighted they couldn't handle it. Just idiots who try to distance themselves from what they fear the most.

    As for the general public knowing about that - I kind of agree in idea, but at the same time, the general public doesn't display enough maturity to really use this knowledge (which is admittedly useless except for an extreemly niche with in a niche amount of people) for anything good (which would, for almost everyone, be precisely - nothing, except perhaps registering that as another weird phenomenon documented in at least 1 human).
    Last edited by Thor; 11th Nov 2017 at 08:13.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    Yet, for years, that's exactly what happened. And what about all the victims and those women who rejected him and whose careers suffered? What about future victims? What about their livelihood? At the very least, people need to be warned about guys like him.

    Yes, I'm not bothered by Weinstein getting skewered by the press and his career potentially being ruined, but you on the other hand are acting like what he did wasn't really a big deal. But it is a big deal. And it's still a big deal without a guilty verdict in a court.
    I get your point and I agree, everyone should know what they get themselves into. Of course reportedly everyone knew about it, it was an open secret, etc. How many times have I heard that now?
    As for the women who rejected Weinstein - good for them. They had to go on and make movies with less dubious producers, I guess. It's not like they were denied their right to make Weinstein movies.
    And for the ones who did not reject him, it's a simple case of prostitution. That doesn't bother me much to be honest.

    Obviously no one should be forced to do anything against their will. But you also don't get to redefine your will later on. You can't say: "I may have sucked that ugly dick to get into the film, but now I feel abused." Even if you feel really really awful about it lateron.

    What makes Weinstein a legal case in my opinion is that he sprung traps on women, instead of just saying what he expected. Reportedly he blocked doors and pushed women against walls, etc. And that's sexual assault. And if it's true he should get sentenced for it.
    But what the public is occupied with is also a lot about the moral decadence of a man who used his position to get into beautiful girls panties. And that again I don't care about. Any football star has a model girlfriend these days. Isn't that prostitution? Isn't the guy using his position? Is it anyone's business?

    On a more philosophical note you might ask: Well, why didn't Weinstein just ask them or put it into his contracts that girls had to be willing to him? There may be several answers to that, but one of them clearly is that public morals prohibited him to do so. So these morals are partly to blame for what happened. Doesn't mean he had any right, but if you really wanted to prevent this kind of thing happening again in the future, then this is one thing you would have to change. You would have to accept that people do sexual things for gratification all the time and that it isn't a "sin" to be held under covers.

    On further news: George Takei Accused of Sexually Assaulting Former Model in 1981

  5. #105
    Mistaken for a man
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Helsinki, Finland
    Am I reading these posts correctly, or am I having problems with English again... Are you people really saying that:

    A) It's ok for people in power to pressure other people to do sexual favours in order to get a job? If you're in a job interview and the interviewer says hey, the job is yours if you suck my dick, that's perfectly fine and "normal", as long as it's not illegal? (Which I suspect it actually is, in many countries.) There shouldn't be any social consequences, because that's how things have always worked and s/he chose to do it so s/he deserved it anyway?

    B) If a person has low self-esteem, it's OK to take advantage of her/him?

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    So it's weird that he does that, but at the same time I'm not surprised - it would be more weird if his jokes had no truth to them. And anyway, this shouldn't be affecting his career in any way in the long term (and it probably won't), no matter how much some people would like it to. People who act like that have more than likely done far worse things in their lives (and real talk, those actions aren't even bad things, just strange and kind of awkward for the accepted norms).
    I don't really understand what you're saying. I know that Louis CK makes jokes about masturbating a lot. Guess what, most guys masturbate, but most have the decency not to do it in front of women other than maybe their own partner. What Louis did is not okay, it's more than strange and awkward. You may think that it's not a big deal, but I can guarantee that more than 90% of women will not appreciate strange men suddenly whipping their dicks out and starting to jack off in front of them. You don't get to have the final say and decide for these women whether it's a big deal or not, because it didn't happen to you.

    Whether or not it ruins Louis CK's career, we'll see, I really don't care that much either way. But many people will have these incidents in mind if he continues to make masturbating jokes, the laughs will not be as easy.

    EDIT: apparently, Louis CK asked for permission to whip his dick out first. The women thought it was a joke and said yes. I guess it's slightly less bad than just whipping it out without asking. Still, even asking it is highly inappropriate in my book, and furthermore whipping it out after the women (quite understandably) think you're joking, because who would even ask such a thing?
    Last edited by Harvester; 11th Nov 2017 at 09:36.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    The problem to me is how does this happen?

    Anybody with some self esteem doesn't let themselves get talked out of their pants against their will.
    (Ok, it's very early in the morning and I haven't had my caffeine quota yet; I am also very, very sensitive about the subject of sexual harassment and sexual assault. You have been warned.)

    Oh. My. God. Have you never heard of 'threats', 'coercion', and 'force'? Also:

    'Sexual assault victims commonly struggle with a range of emotions that make it difficult for them to report or disclose abuse. Often, victims who do report will delay doing so (Archambault & Lonsway, 2006) for a variety of reasons that are connected to neurobiological and psychological responses to their assault (D’Anniballe, 2010). For example, victims may struggle to remember precise details of the assault or experience negative feelings when doing so (D’Anniballe, 2010). Victims may worry about how reporting will affect their family or friends (Campbell, 1998). Further, they may be fearful of family fracture if the person assaulting them is a family member (Campbell & Raja, 1999). In addition, completing the forensic exam or "rape kit", can be a struggle for victims. For example, answering personal questions, enduring an intensive physical exam and evidence collection prevents some victims from pursuing criminal justice resolution.'


    Google it under National Sexual Violence Resource Center.

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    And if you got drugged out of your pants UNINTENTIONALLY,
    anybody with some self esteem should call the police and report it.
    Like the next day, not 15-30 years later after somebody else said the same thing.
    Again. Oh. My. God. When you've been threatened or even blackmailed and know that your assailant will be believed in his denials more readily than you will because you're 'just a woman', then you keep your fucking mouth shut. If you believe you are alone in your traumatizing experiences and that no one will believe you even though you know it's the truth, you keep your fucking mouth shut.

    Google it under National Sexual Violence Resource Center.

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    And then you've got people who seem to get their OWN POWER TRIP,
    fishing around for things to accuse somebody of sexual harassment about.
    "That guy said hi to me and then he burped suggestively. I feel harassed!"
    Careful there, buddy; you're starting to sound like a defensive, deflecting sexist asshole. It's a proven statistic that accusations of sexual harassment/assault are true more often than not ('Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf' Google it under National Sexual Violence Resource Center). Also, most people, even those with half a brain, know that filing false charges of any nature can easily lead to the accuser her/himself being charged and prosecuted. You also have to be very careful in your definition of false accusations; 'Not proven (not substantiated) does not mean a false allegation' (https://academicmatters.ca/2011/10/f...and-realities/). Also: 'Social scientists analyzing crime records report that the rate of false rape allegations is 2 to 8 percent.' (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...jason-richwine)

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    Or, 58 alleged grope victims of Donald Trump who suddenly appeared 10 days before the election,
    and then just as suddenly disappeared back into thin air after that didn't knock him out of the election.
    When the perpetrator is a celebrity and has oodles of money, it's quite easy to 'settle out of court' with the victims and the victim's parents (re: the 13 year old girl Herr Drumpf 'allegedly' (according to our laws, one must use that word unless the accused has been tried & found guilty) raped). Here ya go, educate yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald...ct_allegations

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    Or the rollingstone frat house rape debacle...
    One incident. Got any more to prove your misguided theories?

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    I've seen people ABUSE sexual harassment allegations.
    You really wanna play that game? I've seen people being abused and sexually harassed and assaulted and been there myself (and I happen to ooze self esteem). Do your experiences cancel out mine? I think not. Again, more accusations of that nature are true than those that are false. Google it.

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    So although I wouldn't want that to happen to anybody,
    I dont see how any kind of serious weinstein level harassment could happen against your own will.
    And trying to fish around too hard for it becasue your on a mission to find it and fight against it,
    leads to some people inventing it themselves just so they can start fights for their own glory.
    Gawd, I'm so astounded (and exhausted) by your blatant sexism and ignorance I'm having trouble finding the right words. As I stated earlier, more accusations of sexual harassment and assault are true than those that are not. Google it.

    Quote Originally Posted by robthom View Post
    And dont tell me how dare I doubt such an accusation either.
    Thats a serious accusation, a crime.
    And you have to prove the crime, not just accuse the crime and thats the proof.
    Okay, I'll play: HOW DARE YOU DOUBT SUCH AN ACCUSATION (*lols to self while typing that*)? Please refer to the part of my response that addresses what a victim must endure during the investigation of their accusations as well as confusing 'false accusations' with 'lack of evidence'. P.S. If you automatically doubt accusations made by victims (or alleged victims) of sexual harassment and/or sexual assault, then YOU are part of the problem and what's wrong with our society.

    I choose to ignore the rest of your post. You are obviously ignorant of facts and statistics and come across sounding like a belligerent, misogynistic 15 year old. And yes, in case you haven't caught on yet, I am very sensitive on the subject of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Your ignorance on the subject is deplorable. F.f.s., fucking educate yourself.

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasquez View Post
    Am I reading these posts correctly, or am I having problems with English again... Are you people really saying that:

    A) It's ok for people in power to pressure other people to do sexual favours in order to get a job? If you're in a job interview and the interviewer says hey, the job is yours if you suck my dick, that's perfectly fine and "normal", as long as it's not illegal? (Which I suspect it actually is, in many countries.) There shouldn't be any social consequences, because that's how things have always worked and s/he chose to do it so s/he deserved it anyway?

    B) If a person has low self-esteem, it's OK to take advantage of her/him?
    Hey Vas! How ya doin'? Been missin' you, my friend!!

    No, your English, as always, is impeccable. Imo, this thread:


  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasquez View Post
    Am I reading these posts correctly, or am I having problems with English again... Are you people really saying that:

    A) It's ok for people in power to pressure other people to do sexual favours in order to get a job? If you're in a job interview and the interviewer says hey, the job is yours if you suck my dick, that's perfectly fine and "normal", as long as it's not illegal? (Which I suspect it actually is, in many countries.) There shouldn't be any social consequences, because that's how things have always worked and s/he chose to do it so s/he deserved it anyway?

    B) If a person has low self-esteem, it's OK to take advantage of her/him?
    That's the way I read them. I was going to rant, but what's the use.

  10. #110
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    I don't really understand what you're saying. I know that Louis CK makes jokes about masturbating a lot. Guess what, most guys masturbate, but most have the decency not to do it in front of women other than maybe their own partner. What Louis did is not okay, it's more than strange and awkward. You may think that it's not a big deal, but I can guarantee that more than 90% of women will not appreciate strange men suddenly whipping their dicks out and starting to jack off in front of them. You don't get to have the final say and decide for these women whether it's a big deal or not, because it didn't happen to you.
    I think it's not a big deal, because it really isn't. It's a strange experience, but if that's going to traumatize you, then perhaps life just isn't your cup of tea. Unless you have a very liberal definition of the word, where the word traumatize equates to "ew, that disgusted me/weirded me out for that moment in time".

    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    Whether or not it ruins Louis CK's career, we'll see, I really don't care that much either way
    I know.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    I know? What does this mean? Let me state that I won't feel any satisfaction if his career is ruined. But are you saying I should feel sorry for Louis CK, if his career should take a turn for the worse? Well, I don't. If you go around behaving inappropriately towards women in a manner like this, and it turns out to have negative effects on your career, you have no-one to blame but yourself. It's his own damn fault if this damages his career.

    Now, if this whole #metoo things actually leads to opportunistic women accusing completely innocent men, then those men have my sympathies, and legal action should be taken against the wrongful accusers. With CK, I don't want to see his career ruined, but if it's ruined, he gets what's coming to him after choosing to behave this way.

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Vasquez View Post
    Am I reading these posts correctly, or am I having problems with English again... Are you people really saying that:

    A) It's ok for people in power to pressure other people to do sexual favours in order to get a job? If you're in a job interview and the interviewer says hey, the job is yours if you suck my dick, that's perfectly fine and "normal", as long as it's not illegal? (Which I suspect it actually is, in many countries.) There shouldn't be any social consequences, because that's how things have always worked and s/he chose to do it so s/he deserved it anyway?

    B) If a person has low self-esteem, it's OK to take advantage of her/him?
    I know it's hard to wrap your head around the idea that someone would blow a stranger for money, fame, wealth and fortune. They must have low self esteem or be pressured into it. Because, no one in their right mind would do that, right?

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    That's besides the point. Vasquez was talking about the blowjob question turning up during a job interview (and, more generally, women being pressured into offering sexual favors). Despite the fact that it's true that there exist women who sleep their way to the top, offering a job in exchange for a blowjob/sex is a wildly inappropriate thing to do which should, IMO, get the job interviewer fired on the spot.
    Last edited by Harvester; 11th Nov 2017 at 14:32.

  14. #114
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    So it's weird that he does that, but at the same time I'm not surprised - it would be more weird if his jokes had no truth to them. And anyway, this shouldn't be affecting his career in any way in the long term (and it probably won't), no matter how much some people would like it to.
    If this "shouldn't be affecting his career in any way in the long term" it would be because he actually fessed up to doing a Bad Thing, and then doing that Bad Thing again and again. Note how Spacey and Weinstein have categorically denied doing untoward things or played amnesiac and they're both in some hot water.

    As far as I know, Spacey hasn't admitted to doing any of what he's accused of, and he's already getting spliced out of a movie so Arthur Wellesley can replace him pod-people style.

    Loony Bin got his appointment on the Colbert Show cancelled, his latest film has been dropped by its distributor, and HBO and FX are severing ties with him. I dunno, but I think it's affecting his career now, and I think it will affect it later.

    People who act like that have more than likely done far worse things in their lives (and real talk, those actions aren't even bad things, just strange and kind of awkward for the accepted norms).
    lol

  15. #115
    Moderator
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: Wales
    Thank you, Dia.

  16. #116
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    I know? What does this mean? Let me state that I won't feel any satisfaction if his career is ruined.
    I get that. I'm just a little sad that nobody cares that Louie's career might be ruined over something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    lol
    I know, right? I couldn't win against that argument (well, truth moreso than argument, but for the sake of the argument I'm calling it an argument) either, if I were to opposite emotionally.

    Great to hear how Spacey's career is getting slammed as well. Maybe I should accuse someone popular whom I don't like as well. I hear that black whatever guy from Star Wars episode 7 (Fin or something?) has been mean and arrogant toward his fans and not signed autograhps. He's not a child, so I should be able to make an abuse story out of it somehow.

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Yes, thank you Dia! Big subject for me as well, Im glad somebody took a piece of that dude.

    Not bad, for not having your coffee yet.

  18. #118
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    And for the ones who did not reject him, it's a simple case of prostitution. That doesn't bother me much to be honest.
    Victim blaming doesn't even begin describing what you're doing here. Coercing someone by using their fear for their career prospects is the bad thing here, not what the women had to do. And what of those women who said no but were molested anyway and then were threatened to keep quiet? What of those women who went to the police but then nothing happened?

    The responses in this thread alone should be enough to serve as proof why women don't report sexual abuse.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Starker, I already said that no one should be forced to do anything against their will and Weinstein should be sentenced for any cases of sexual assault. Maybe you want to read my post again.
    But don't you think that you are decking Weinstein with much more power than he actually had? He hardly was a monopolist producer in Hollywood. Did he really have the power to subvert an actresses career? Or does "fear for their career prospects" translate to that they wouldn't get pushed by Weinstein?


    As for Louis C.K., he made his career of being a most callous asshole on stage. I suspect that everyone who laughs at his jokes secretly thinks he's right on and they are merely held back by their cowardliness, social pressure and lack of eloquence. Uptight assholes cheering an uninhibited asshole. Then it turns out, it wasn't just an act. Colleagues who really looked up to him are traumatized to see the jerk jerking it. But you're only supposed to be that guy on stage, Louis? You know, where it's funny!
    I doubt that this will destroy his career, unfortunately.

  20. #120
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Yet you think that women who let themselves be abused out of fear for their career were nothing more than prostitutes?

    Weinstein was without a doubt one of the most powerful moviemakers in Hollywood and he had a lot of pull. He definitely had the power to hurt someone's career and he could make someone's life very difficult to the point it would be practically impossible to get anywhere. Even something simple like spreading a rumor that the person is "difficult" to work with can lead to a lot of closed doors when it's done by someone that influential.

    Also, it doesn't matter what I believe, it matters what the victims believed at the moment.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    Quote Originally Posted by Thor View Post
    I get that. I'm just a little sad that nobody cares that Louie's career might be ruined over something like that.
    I've got a crocodile tear in my eye.

    I know, right? I couldn't win against that argument (well, truth moreso than argument, but for the sake of the argument I'm calling it an argument) either, if I were to opposite emotionally.
    That's a pretty specious argument. Better luck next time.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Starker, I don't think that it only matters what the victim believes, unless it's obvious facts or they were convincingly made to believe that by the perpetrator. So either it was clear to everyone that Weinstein actually had the power to subvert careers or he must have said some cartoon villain shit like: You either do what I say or your career is over! You will never find a job in Hollywood again!
    Then it would matter what the victim believed. But otherwise not so much, ie if they just assumed he could.
    If you believe my posts will give you an ulcer, it's not my responsibility to stop posting. This is much like feeling harassed doesn't automatically equate to objective harassment (as Winged Kagouti so brilliantly suggested earlier in this thread).
    My comparison with prostitution was based on the premise that actresses consented with sex in order to gain better career prospects. I think that's pretty clear from the text.
    Last edited by Kolya; 11th Nov 2017 at 21:47.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    But don't you think that you are decking Weinstein with much more power than he actually had?

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    The Trump groping stuff was a pack of lies designed by the Hilary campaign to derail him. He denied it, enough of a percentage of people believed him more than the women and it all just vanished. I'm surprised that he didn't sue the women over it. False allegations are serious business.

  25. #125
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    So either it was clear to everyone that Weinstein actually had the power to subvert careers or

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