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Thread: Exposing Sexual Harassment...

  1. #201
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Kolya, your arguments are getting weirder and harder to follow. While I don't disagree with you that the mob mentality that's emerging can be problematic when it comes to false accusations and presumption of guilt, I don't think that's the primary issue here. After all, who has been falsely accused? In all of the stories I've read, the accusers either admit to their guilt or the evidence against them is overwhelming. Yeah, there's a bit of a mob mentality now, but it's because people who have had to live their lives in shameful secret are now feeling empowered to speak up, and fuck if that's not a good thing, and about time. The twitter periphery, in my opinion, is largely meaningless, as ever.

  2. #202
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    After all, who has been falsely accused? In all of the stories I've read, the accusers either admit to their guilt or the evidence against them is overwhelming.
    The few actual court cases kicked off lately are obviously still on going. But a lot of people did not simply admit guilt or were faced with overwhelming evidence. Lots of accused men deny the allegations like George Takei.
    Some sue for defamation: Brett Ratner. Ibrahim Maalouf. Bill O'Reilly. Jo Capitalcide. The Gaslamp Killer (William Bensussen). Anis Uzzaman. Ethan Kath. For obvious reasons the news are a bit harder to find than sexual allegations at the moment. Also it takes some time to prepare a case.
    I'm not saying these people are innocent. But so far I know of no case where anyone was actually sentenced in the wake of #metoo, one way or the other.
    Twitter is not just periphery in this but the main source of allegations.

  3. #203
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    It's just a part of a broader societal shift. Twitter will always be home to the vocal extremists, and I've found it pretty easy to ignore, but this movement has been going on before the Weinstein accusations. Hell, our provincial government has been running I Believe You ads for a year or so. I guess it just feels to me like you're pushing your devil's advocate position to the point of ignoring the actual problem, which is sexual harassment, not mob mentality. The mob will subside, and then we're left with decades of sexual abuse cases that we should do what with, exactly? We're talking about acts that have been unreported because people feel ashamed about them or traumatized by them, and I would imagine that having public support could be the thing that motivates an ashamed person to speak out.

    I mean, I get where you're coming from and I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but the problem all along has been disbelief around sexual assaults, and the status quo has always been in men's favour. I guess I'm saying I'd rather risk occasional false accusation than make it even harder for women to do an already incredibly difficult thing. And presumably, once the fervor subsides, the cultural shift will continue in a positive direction, where men don't feel they have the right to behave like this and women feel less ashamed to come forward when it does happen.

  4. #204
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    I guess it just feels to me like you're pushing your devil's advocate position to the point of ignoring the actual problem, which is sexual harassment, not mob mentality. .
    I probably have. I could point out that the other position was already well equipped, but I should have done better to acknowledge the actual problem, you're right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aja View Post
    And presumably, once the fervor subsides, the cultural shift will continue in a positive direction, where men don't feel they have the right to behave like this and women feel less ashamed to come forward when it does happen.
    Yes, hopefully so.

  5. #205
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolya View Post
    You're not a victim until a court has established that there was a crime and you were the victim. Until then you're an accusant, if you go to court.
    Tell that to my shredded vagina, bruised cervix, my broken nose, fractured ribs and cut on my forehead from his knife that required 20 stitches. I became a victim the moment he laid his hands on me without my consent. Court or no court.

  6. #206
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    I'm so sorry Dia. I would gladly stomp him until he shit himself. I can't stand assholes like that.

  7. #207
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Cologne
    I'm sorry. And I hope you were able to go to court and get them sentenced.

  8. #208
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Qantas
    The criminal justice system is useless for addressing sexual harassment, and civil courts aren't much better, which is why it is mostly dealt with administratively. When it happens outside of the administrative jurisdiction of an organization (e.g. an employer, school, professional organization), or if the organization isn't capable or isn't willing to handle such cases, then there really isn't much you can do other than take it public and try to seek some form of justice by reputational damage.

    The courts are pretty ineffective at preventing sexual assault too. With rape, there is often some physical evidence. But if you've been groped or exposed or something, and don't have witnesses and an eager prosecutor, probably nothing will happen. So if your standard is to presume innocence unless there is a conviction, you are taking a very one-sided position and supporting a culture where sexual harassment and assault is pretty much condoned up to the point of rape.

  9. #209
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    I rarely talk about that horrendous night in my life except when lending my strength to other victims (I help out at a local safe house for women and children); I am no longer a victim but a survivor. Don't you dare feel sorry for me because I do not feel sorry for myself. But it's like all these revelations being made lately regarding sexual harassment (yeah, been there, too) and sexual assault have re-opened an old wound I thought had healed a long time ago. I admit I am surprised at how much anger and hatred is still festering, even after all these years. Working on it, though. Now maybe you'll understand why I feel so strongly about sexual assault and harassment. Not sorry if I offended; if I did, go fuck yourself. Bodies heal in time; terror, fear, self-loathing, hatred, anger, mental anguish, etc., take a whole lot longer and never quite go away entirely.

    While on the stand during the trial I was grilled like a piece of meat and forced to relive that horrible night over and over and over again. It was sheer torture; I felt like I was torn wide open and dissected for everyone in that courtroom to see. It felt like mind rape. I know to some it may sound cliché, but that defense lawyer did his best to make it my fault and make it seem like I was a cheap slut who'd encouraged that monster's assault even though I'd never seen him before that night as I walked to my car in the parking lot of the local Walmart. Please understand, I did not persevere because I was brave or courageous. I persevered because I was so consumed with anger and hatred that I almost couldn't recognize the me that I was before that whole ordeal happened. I persevered and refused to drop the charges because I hated that piece of shit with every fiber of my being and I wanted to see him suffer for what he'd done to me. I wanted to see him suffer and die. And just when I felt like I was crumbling, caving in, disintegrating, one of his former victims whose case against him was dismissed due to lack of evidence and who was sitting in the courtroom during the proceedings loaned me some of her strength. During a court recess she followed me to the restroom and told me of her ordeal; she held me while I cried and cried and told me I could do this, that I was stronger than I thought I was (my attorney had warned me to 'Keep the tears to a minimum, don't display any wild emotions because the judge only wants to hear/see facts and evidence', so when that woman showed sympathy and understanding it was like the flood gates opened up.) When I thanked her she just said, 'Pay it forward, honey'. The case took 6 months to come to trial and lasted two days. Those two days were an eternity in hell for me.

    He got five years in prison; it should have been more, many more. I still blame the male judge who seemed bored by the whole proceedings. That piece of slimy dogshit was out in 3 years (the judge modified his sentence on the grounds of good behavior, can you believe it? Good. Behavior.). About three months after getting out of prison he brutally assaulted another woman (only one that the authorities knew of) which landed him back in jail pending a court hearing. The case was dismissed almost immediately because his latest victim dropped all charges and refused to testify. I was floored when I heard that so I looked her up and called her. I had to go through re-telling my whole ordeal before she opened up to me. She finally told me that he threatened to kill her family, her husband and two little kids, if she ever pressed charges and testified against him. She said she and her husband decided it wasn't worth the shit she and her family would have to go through in court. He'd made the same threats to me when he was done with me. He was killed in a car accident about 8 months after that case was dropped, about a year after getting out of prison. But during that year I was terrified that he'd find me and take revenge.

    I was taught never to wish ill on people, no matter what, because ill wishes always come back to kick you in the teeth. My hatred had brought me to the brink of making those ill wishes and I wasn't exactly proud of myself for that. But I got drunk the day I heard of his timely passing, decided there is a God, and cried tears of joy and relief that there was now one less monster in this world. I went through counseling for years after that God-awful night. I've never considered myself weak-minded and was almost ashamed that one man could generate such intense feelings of hatred, anger and fear in me. For the longest time after that terrible ordeal I suffered from misandry (and a whole bunch of other phobias) until I met the man who became my second husband (I still struggle with misandry every now and then). Now, over 20 years later, I still have occasional nightmares, though thankfully they are very few and far between. But I wonder if my case would have ever even made it to court had I not been bruised and bleeding profusely at both ends when the cops found me.





    I don't want to talk about this anymore.

  10. #210
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Dia, you are a badass.

  11. #211
    Administrator
    Registered: Oct 2000
    Location: Athens of the North
    Quote Originally Posted by Dia View Post
    I don't want to talk about this anymore.
    That's perfectly understandable - it was hard to read and I'm sure much harder to for you to write. It really demonstrates how much of a barrier there is to follow through after that type of crime for the person who has been attacked and thanks for sharing.

  12. #212
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Yes, thank you so much Dia. My aunt went through a similar situation, just terrible. Thanks for being the strong person that you are.

  13. #213
    Administrator
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: above the clouds
    Dia, you're clearly a very resilient person. I echo what Al just said.

    I picked up a book by Rebecca Solnit because I was looking up the term "mansplaining" - her essay called The Longest War is the first thing I've read that expresses the level of violence against women everywhere. The statistics about domestic violence are particularly upsetting. In the US there is a rape reported effectively every 6 minutes. I found another UK statistic pointing out that 6% of rape trials result in conviction. There's no way that equates to some sort of justice.

    No idea what's to be done, but I've not really comprehended the magnitude of the problem before. Makes me wonder how many women I pass on the street have been assaulted.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Harvester View Post
    Louis C.K. has already come out and said that the allegations are true. He said he never should've done it in a lengthy statement, strangely without actually apologizing to the women involved. So the allegations are not bullshit. And they're not just part of his personal life, but his professional life as well. Women who wanted to work with him had him coming up to them, stripping naked and masturbating in front of them. This deserves to become public, because otherwise this behavior would've continued and Louis would've made more women feel severely uncomfortable and maybe even traumatized.





    Damn this thread is a dumpster fire.

    Life tip: sometime's the best answer is "I don't know enough to have come to a conclusion I can feel confident in, so I'll get back to you when I do"



    And Dia, condolences. I find a consistent trend of myself feeling violently angry almost any time I read about people's interaction with the justice system, and this is no exception. We're far too harsh on non-violent crime and far too lenient on violent crime. I still find it hard to believe that the husband's reaction would be to cave on the threats. A similar thing happened to a girl I dated briefly in college and well.....let's just say that they were an Appalachian family who also decided that the dysfunction of the court system wasn't worth it.

    There isn't any excuse for that failure. To put things in perspective, US federal courts have a higher conviction rate than Nazi Germany did (yes, you read that right) but they can't seem to handle this kind of a crime reliably? The system is broken when we're running the system in such a way that it results in prosecutors preferring to go after things like weed possession than violent crimes like murder or rape.
    Last edited by Tony_Tarantula; 17th Nov 2017 at 18:53.

  15. #215
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    I am not brave or courageous. Only when I'm playing my games on my PC and then yeah, I'm a badass. I am just a regular person who had something very bad happen to her and who wanted to lash out, strike back, and get revenge. My God, if I could have jumped on that piece of shit in the courtroom and ripped his throat out with my bare teeth and gotten away with it I would have. That's how consumed I was by anger and hatred. That's the disturbingly low level to which that monster brought me. It took me awhile to understand that fulfillment of any of those desires would not have made my life return to the way it was, the way I was before the assault, it wouldn't have changed anything. My mom would have said it was sheer stubbornness that kept me pushing forward and she would have been partially correct; mostly what drove me was my hatred and anger. It doesn't take strength, braveness, or courage to feel those things. Understand; hatred is a very ugly thing and it turned me into a very ugly person for awhile. Prolonged, over-the-top anger is very destructive and a detriment to logic and clear thinking. That is what happens to people who've been violated, especially people who never get even a modicum of justice by seeing their assailant suffer the justice that he (or she) deserves.


    It's difficult for some people to understand how the feeling of being rendered totally helpless, totally at the mercy of someone else can affect you and I guess that's part of the message I'm trying to send here. You want to help victims of assault and/or harassment? Believe them. It's better to be proven wrong (believe me, the accused will be exonerated in that case and his/her vindication will be on public record, plus false rape accusations only make up a single-digit percentage of all rape claims) than to disbelieve someone and find out down the road that person was telling the truth and now their life has been totally ruined and they will live in fear and even terror for the rest of their life. You want to help? Then teach your kids, your nephews and nieces, your grandkids, that violence against others is not acceptable, nor should it be tolerated. Once you believe that sexual harassment and assault are not a joke and not only wrong but epidemic in our world, then you have taken the first step forward in helping people who have been preyed upon. No, we can't cure the whole world's ills, especially overnight, but we can take our compassion, our understanding, and our kindness and pay it forward.


    I love you guys and your kind and encouraging words are wonderful and heart warming. But I am not brave, I am not courageous. Only in my video games. What I am is stubborn as hell and working towards the knowledge, the satisfaction that monsters like the one who assaulted me have no more power over me. I want to help other victims become survivors and raise awareness that harassment and assault are at an all-time high. I never could have posted any of this even five years ago, so I guess we really are making progress. One step at a time ....

    Ok, I'm starting to sound preachy so it's time for me to really stop talking about this.
    Last edited by Dia; 17th Nov 2017 at 22:58.

  16. #216
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Quote Originally Posted by Dia View Post
    It's difficult for some people to understand how the feeling of being rendered totally helpless, totally at the mercy of someone else can affect you
    Especially as a child...

    You are very intelligent to have worked through this so well, and I appreciate that last post.

  17. #217
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Netherlands
    Take care, Dia!

  18. #218
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    @GMD: Especially the kids! The first time I dealt with a child who'd been sexually assaulted I had to keep it together in the presence of that child, but afterwards on my way home I pulled my car over to the side of the road, opened the door, vomited violently, and then cried for an interminable length of time. It not only tears your heart out, but throws you into a murderous rage, then plummets you down into the depths of despair with the realization that there are monsters out there who not only do that to a child, but think there's nothing wrong with their actions. The first time most people deal with children who are sexual assault victims is often the first time they realize that yes, they could commit cold-blooded murder if they found themselves in the same room with the monster who assaulted that child. For real.

  19. #219
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    That was nail on the head, Dia.

  20. #220
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by Slasher View Post
    That's a pretty specious argument. Better luck next time.
    Not like it was the most serious argument, but it still beats no argument, which you thrive on. I know, some people can get through life that way, by just bullying and being dumb jocks, but in the long term bullies die out anyway. No need to tell me about your private life.

  21. #221
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    It really is a big deal though.

    You're clearly lacking empathy. This could be a very traumatising event. It's so invasive and when you're physically weaker you might worry that it'll become something else.

    You've marked yourself with this one.
    Neither you or I can really empathise with a woman. The second sentence actually has a little meat to it though, as a woman (or more universally speaking - anyone in a position of disadvantage, *especially* children) might emotionally assume a world of things. In that respect I agree, that can be pretty scary in the moment. But I still wouldn't go for the word "traumatising", unless you have a very loose definition of the word. It doesn't stand anywhere near being mistreated as a child. It doesn't stand anywhere near actual abuse. It's like like a gateway to that potential though, which I agree has to be cut off. It's just incredibly overblown, especially when people say or think he should lose his life (as in his career, social life etc.) over this. Like there's not an actual person behind it. Sociopathic society is sociopathic.

    And how have I marked myself, eh? I mean, I know how, but I'm curious of the phrasing you would put it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    He's abused his position very badly. I like his humour but I don't care if he goes down over this.
    Kek. I believe the only response appropriate to this is...
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    You're clearly lacking empathy.
    And something tells me that won't convince you, seeing how you set the double standard within the same post.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Dia - I suggest blocking robthom. He's clueless. Probably best to block Thor too.
    Hey now, me and Dia haven't even ever spoken, even through words on the internet. So, is the goal to block everyone that doesn't echo your opinions (or, I should probably say - emotions)? I guess we all need a home of some sort, so in that sense I understand. Ek. I just never do that myself, since it's interesting for me to learn new things, new perspectives and grow etc. This place has been a surogate home for me for a long time.
    Last edited by Thor; 18th Nov 2017 at 03:30.

  22. #222
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    You are not entitled to a career and you are not entitled to a social life. If you habitually whip your willy out in front of colleagues, it shouldn't be a big surprise that people don't want to hire you or spend time with you. Especially if you are an entertainer and a public figure.

  23. #223
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Why is Carl Sargeant not relevant?

    Don't you have Google?

  24. #224
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Location: in your second eyelids
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    Why is Carl Sargeant not relevant?

    Don't you have Google?
    Could you enlighten me with your reference pls?
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    You are not entitled to a career and you are not entitled to a social life. If you habitually whip your willy out in front of colleagues, it shouldn't be a big surprise that people don't want to hire you or spend time with you. Especially if you are an entertainer and a public figure.
    When you put it like that... ofcourse it sounds bad. But again, I said it somewhere before (evidently to "Slasher", because he sure as hell responded to that one) - normal people have most likely done far worse things in their lives. If you're a parent, then there's a depressingly high chance that you've abused your child in some way, which is far worse.

    So if you're fundamentally stupid or have a "fatal flaw" on something (and everybody has one), you need to be educated and helped. If you decide to dispose of this person whose flaw got exposed, you're not helping anyone, except feeling a little better about yourself because you don't have that flaw at least. Suddenly it's as if Louie never brought any value to the world and he's a piece of trash that should be eliminated and forgotten about. Hey, I felt a bit of a shock when I first heard about that thing. And it's a bit of a disappointment, but I won't let something like that make me suddenly discard him as person. He just needs to know that people don't appreciate that and he should definitely resist his urge to repeat that. He most likely thought it was semi-ok, especially since he jokes about things like that and people just accepted it.
    Sometimes we learn new things about a person that we like, sometimes we learn new things about a person that we dislike.

    He never hurt anybody, ffks (as far as we know, anyway... ... ha ha rape joke, but if he came out with that (and I mean if it got proven/admitted, not if he was randomly accused by someone whom disliked him (before then it's all inconclusive, no 100% judgements made in either direction...)), I would learn something new about the world and dislike him quite a bit.)
    Last edited by Thor; 18th Nov 2017 at 04:30.

  25. #225
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    I should note that another names been added to the list. John Jaratt of Wolf Creek fame. I personally don't believe it, as it's a historical case dating back to the 70s, and is just 1 singular instance. Jaratt has emphatically denied that it ever happened.

    Proving it from that far back would be next to impossible, unless there was witnesses.

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