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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    its time someone makes a mission harder then any mission that has been made before for the elite ghoster's/ironman/etc to see who is really skilled

    we need gauntlet part 3 "the river of styx" aka journey to hell,you have to travel from the surface of earth into the earth to the center where hell is located,then do some tasks along way and when you get there then have to escape back to surface,but end up taking a new path on exit and end up heaven if you win :P at the perily gates

    also you run into past people you delt with in other missions like a really pissed off Ramirez,a undead cutty who was last scene dying in cragscleft,it could be all garretts past enemy's along the way :P poor benny would be there too

    i would keep going but i feel the flak might be more then can handle :P

    all of this is just a random idea
    Last edited by downwinder; 18th Dec 2017 at 21:51.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    I agree with Klatremus' philosopy of Supreme, his suggestions, and his wording.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Sorry to be off topic but I was hoping to start a similar discussion on Iron Man and Titanium Man rules, but have hit the snag of being unable to find the official rules for these challenges. The "official" thread they were listed on ( http://forums.eidosgames.com/old-ubb...inal_rules.htm ) seems to be MIA.

    Does anyone know if either this thread or the rules are archived anywhere? Hope so. Would be a shame if all the correct details of not just IM/TM, but Cushy Trumpet and a host of other playstyles, were lost.
    Last edited by Cigam; 19th Dec 2017 at 14:43.

  4. #29

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    Location: Wisconsin
    I also agree with klatremus. While I, too, am on the fence about loot items that act as light sources, I think for now it's best to leave them unavailable for Supreme in order to avoid creating any slippery slopes.

    On a side note, any thoughts about drinkable potions that are required for the storyline and/or don't actually affect Garrett's in-game abilities (as I mentioned in an earlier post)? Or is this simply too rare of a scenario to worry about?

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Sigh of relief, copy saved to harddrive in case that website also goes MIA. Thanks, Starker.

    As for ghost, isn't there already a rule saying that you can break the rules if the mission is impossible to complete otherwise? That takes care of situations where an arrow type is needed. Could also cover the loot thing. If it is impossible to steal enough loot without breaking more important rules, it is OK to snuff that candle stick and steal it. There could also be an exception for saying that you can even snuff loot that isn't necessary for the goal target, but only if perfect ghost is achieved.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Norway (currently Phoenix, AZ)
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    As for ghost, isn't there already a rule saying that you can break the rules if the mission is impossible to complete otherwise?
    There is no such rule. Perhaps you're thinking of the rule that allows you to break a rule if explicitly stated in the objective, for example "kill all the haunts" in RTTC. You still can't break other rules in order to meet that objective though.

  8. #33
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Location: Heidelberg
    Quote Originally Posted by smithpd View Post
    I agree with Klatremus' philosopy of Supreme, his suggestions, and his wording.
    Regarding A and B: Yandros too was quite clear about it. Well, I already said I would bow to the majority decision, whether I like it or not. So be it, then.

    Regarding C and D: I too agree. It looks like a widespread consensus, and - without disrespect towards disengaging opinions that might come up later - once klatremus and Peter blessed it, I consider the matter as good as settled. Who knows a moderator, who can nail the updated rules on the church door?

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Norway (currently Phoenix, AZ)
    Would anyone be opposed to me copying the Eidos post of the official rules into a new thread here, reflecting the updated rules? Then perhaps a moderator can sticky it. That way I have the opportunity to edit should it be necessary at a later time.

    Perhaps ultravioletu could rename this thread to 'Official Ghost Rules discussion' or something similar.
    Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
    Let's Supreme Ghost Thief - YouTube Channel with Thief Let's Plays

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    I know some moderators. Let me know when you are ready to make your amended rules thread sticky.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    There is no such rule. Perhaps you're thinking of the rule that allows you to break a rule if explicitly stated in the objective, for example "kill all the haunts" in RTTC. You still can't break other rules in order to meet that objective though.
    Perhaps there ought to be then? A single over-arching rule like that would take care of a lot of things. Though I suppose you would have to explain that there is still a preference in how you break a rule.

    For instance, if you can get past the guard you NEED to get past with only a level 1 alert do this. Luring them away by throwing things is only OK if level 2 or higher is unavoidable.

    Just out of interest, would it be a bust to start taking down Haunts in RtC before you are given that instruction? Or is the knowledge that you will be asked at some point, enough.
    Last edited by Cigam; 21st Dec 2017 at 02:42.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Location: Heidelberg
    @Peter: when it comes to it, could you ask the mod to also rename the thread as suggested by klatremus? I cannot do it myself, despite being the initiator...

  13. #38
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    Not trying to be melodramatic here, but if you're going to have a rule that says it's OK to break other rules if you have to in order to successfully ghost a mission, you may as well just not have any rules at all IMHO. It's like having a law that says it's OK to break the speed limit if you're in a hurry.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Yandros, I am not sure how one leads to the other. Imagine a room with a single guard facing a wall. Since you can just walk to the object, pick it up and complete the mission, there is nothing here which would justify snuffing candles, water arrowing torches, or KOing them.

    The relaxation only applies when it is either that or that specific mission is impossible to ghost.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Location: Heidelberg
    Impossible to ghost - that's okay. As it was said before, here included, take the bust, report it and finish the mission with n unvoidable busts. The rest, the elimination of avoidable busts, is what counts.

    PS: and yes, attacking RtC haunts before the objective spawns is a clear bust imho.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    Cigam,

    Yandros and the others are correct, IMO. I'll be more blunt. A blanket exception to the rules that makes all missions possible to ghost would be unacceptable to me. It would make a mockery of the phrase "ghost success". It is the equivalent of a participation trophy in kids sports. Ghosting is supposed to be difficult and sometimes impossible. As I have said previously, there is no shame in failure. The phrase "ghost success" should have clear meaning. That is the purpose of the rules.

    I agree that killing haunts before the objective is presented would be a bust.

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by smithpd View Post
    A blanket exception to the rules that makes all missions possible to ghost would be unacceptable to me.
    Are you happier with the alternative that some missions become impossible to Ghost? Bafford, Undercover, Soulforge, etc etc. I am not sure what you mean by "blanket" exception. It would only apply to certain missions, and even then, only in specific spots. Otherwise what do those who like to Ghost do for such missions? Just skip Bafford and start the game on Cragscleft because they know in advance there is one single guard who cannot be gotten past unalerted (I believe). I think it has meaning to say that you ghosted Soulforge as anyone who knows the mission will know that this won't apply to the start camera.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    I feel like I'm repeating what is said above, but... You ghost everything except that one guard or whatever obstacle you might have in mind. It is not about the result, it is about the playstyle in general and about sticking to it as much as possible.

    Also, how is Bafford unghostable?
    Last edited by marbleman; 21st Dec 2017 at 17:01.

  19. #44
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    If a mission is ghostable except for one guard, you report it as a failed ghost and describe the lone bust. That's it. There's no shame in that. You don't exercise a special rule that says you can bend or break the rules for that one guard just so you can claim ghosting success on the mission. As marbleman said, it's about the playstyle, honoring the rules and reporting your results - not about being able to say you ghosted the mission.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    OK fair enough. But in that case is there any need to modify the rules at all? If you are forced to bust because an FM requires you to use a moss arrow at a specific point, then just report that one bust. Ghost the rest of it.

    As for Bafford, isn't there a stationary guard in the cellar who cannot be snuck past without eliciting a reaction?

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Norway (currently Phoenix, AZ)
    We weren't changing the rules, we were simply setting out to clarify them. As you perhaps saw even, most of us voted against amending the rules regarding the lighting issue, which is what the thread started out discussing. One of the main arguments was what the danger of changing the rules could lead to. So no, modifying the rules is only a last resort, and only for clarifying reasons. We are very serious about not altering the intended spirit of any of the original ghost modes. Every once in a while discussions arise because players discover areas that the rules don't cover, or perhaps they weren't fully explaining the rules the way they intended. Sometimes new gameplay mechanics in newer fan missions trigger a new ghost topic also.

    And Baffords can most certainly be ghosted, perfect supreme ghosted even, but it's difficult.
    Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
    Let's Supreme Ghost Thief - YouTube Channel with Thief Let's Plays

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2000
    Location: Land of enchantment
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    Are you happier with the alternative that some missions become impossible to Ghost? Bafford, Undercover, Soulforge, etc etc.
    Yes. The idea is to play the missions, do the best you can, and enjoy them.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Norway (currently Phoenix, AZ)
    Ok, I have opened the official ghost rules thread here. Could a moderator sticky it please? Let me know if you see any mistakes. We should keep all rules discussions to this thread.
    Klatremus' Supreme Thief Site - Walkthroughs, Loot Lists & Ghost Reports
    Let's Supreme Ghost Thief - YouTube Channel with Thief Let's Plays

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2006
    Location: Troyes, France
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Ok, I have opened the official ghost rules thread here. Could a moderator sticky it please? Let me know if you see any mistakes. We should keep all rules discussions to this thread.
    Pinned and closed
    Enhanced Thief Fan Missions Archive (ETFMA): [TTLG thread]
    DromEd Level Editor Developer Textures Kit (DLETDK): [TTLG thread]

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Are the Ghost rules the only rules that will get preserved in that thread? Just wondering if it worth adding a second post to the pinned thread to include the official rules of the other playstyles, from the link above. The more places they are copied the better, I am thinking, in case that archive page closes.
    Last edited by Cigam; 28th Dec 2017 at 13:48.

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