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Thread: Chinese Police Arrest Plunkbat Cheaters

  1. #26
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    Junkies and dealers is not the right equivalent. A better one would be dice-roulette gamblers and the manufacturers of loaded dice.
    And in those circumstances, I honestly don't know if a manufacturer of loaded dice has been arrested or shut-down. I would have to research further.

    Interestingly, if we take your card-game analogy further, card-counting devices aren't illegal in either the UK or the US.

    Would you consider card-counting to be cheating?

    And your Nevada example? Interesting in that it is pretty much unique. Cheating at poker doesn't appear to be illegal anywhere else. I would guess I'm reading from the same Wikipedia article you pulled that from.

    There was a fascinating article in Wired back in 2014 about a couple of guys who discovered a bug in slot machine software, and went on to successfully exploit it. When the case went to court, it was eventually dismissed.
    I whole-heartedly recommend reading it. It's an excellent piece of writing, with a fantastic sense of drama.

    And again with Wired (sorry for the cached page; the original no longer appears to be online), there was a piece on a Russian hacker called "Alex" who ran an international slot machine cheating ring. Again, no prosecution.

    Those articles should hopefully help you realise something:
    No matter the offence people take from others cheating in games, outside of sporting competitions, that very specific Nevada example and now this arrest in China, actual prosecution for cheating or the manufacture of devices that help people to cheat is incredibly rare.

    Long may it remain so.

    Oh, and in a game of poker, all players contribute to the pot. In Plunkbat, you don't pay-per-play. The feeling that players are losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory.

  2. #27
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    It's almost like people don't read the stuff I post.

    1) Card counting is technically gaming the system and generally isn't encouraged in casinos if it's noticed you're doing it
    2) Cheating in casinos is illegal depending on where you live: how it's prosecuted is down to the individual establishment. Yes, that's mostly Nevada.
    3) Cheats are not strictly equivalent to card-counting because the analogous, er, skill in PlunkBat is simply being able to read every other competitor's HP. A person counting cards isn't circumventing the game's rules through external means, they're using math to exploit the game. While it's not fun playing off these folks, it's not in the same league as invulnerability, infinite ammo, or wallhacks
    4) People playing Plunkbat have 'contributed to the pot' so to speak by purchasing the game. That entitles you to an expectation of getting your money's worth in either the long- or short-term.
    Last edited by Sulphur; 19th Jan 2018 at 12:15.

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Finding a bug and exploiting it is very different from hacking. Both are arguably cheap tactics, but only one of them is cheating. Back to the cards analogy, counting cards is an exploit. Sliding cards from your sleeve into your hand is cheating.

    Also, the notion that "losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory" is completely ridiculous. Just b/c they're not stealing directly from your pocket doesn't mean you aren't losing out. If we're competing for a prize, and you cheat to win the prize, you have stolen from me. Just because I never had the money to begin with, doesn't in any way change the harm which I've experienced. Maybe it feels different, emotionally, but they are economically equivalent.

  4. #29
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    Quote Originally Posted by trefoilknot View Post
    Finding a bug and exploiting it is very different from hacking. Both are arguably cheap tactics, but only one of them is cheating. Back to the cards analogy, counting cards is an exploit. Sliding cards from your sleeve into your hand is cheating.

    Also, the notion that "losing money thanks to cheaters and cheat makers gains is illusory" is completely ridiculous. Just b/c they're not stealing directly from your pocket doesn't mean you aren't losing out. If we're competing for a prize, and you cheat to win the prize, you have stolen from me. Just because I never had the money to begin with, doesn't in any way change the harm which I've experienced. Maybe it feels different, emotionally, but they are economically equivalent.
    So you're playing to make money?
    Might want to look into a more stable income.

    Sorry, that's rather glib of me.

    But it does serve to highlight something else that I think is a tragedy in modern videogames: that it's not just the publishers and developers who are greedy now.
    Last edited by Malf; 19th Jan 2018 at 13:52.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: May 2017
    Location: USA
    Ah, yes. I forgot that whether something is a crime or not depends on whether your subjective opinion makes the victim worthy of our sympathy. Thanks for clarifying that.

  6. #31
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    But that's the overarching point you are ignoring. Cheating in gaming isn't considered a crime by criminal justice systems in the vast majority of modern civilisation.

    And all law is subjective if you want to get that petty. Outside of humanity, "law" means diddly-squat.

    Edit: Oh, and please prove to me that the offended parties here have lost something of monetary value by others cheating at Plunkbat. I don't know about you, but I don't buy games thinking I'm going to make money off of them, and I'm betting that most people buying Plunkbat (at least outside of China) are initially buying it to have fun. The purchase of the game does not count as a player's stake in the game's pot as far as I'm concerned. Yes, it is used to fund said pot, but once the money for the initial purchase of the game has left the player's hands, it no longer belongs to them. The developers and publishers could choose tomorrow to stop the resale of virtual goods, and the players would have no say in the matter. Would you condone punishing them for perceived loss of potential winnings?
    Last edited by Malf; 19th Jan 2018 at 13:59.

  7. #32
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Just so we're clear, I'm not that bothered either way about virtual gains and real-world gains via abusing the system or the style of judgement thereof - I think the current system of banning people who cheat in a game works just fine, as long as the verification of said cheaters is stringent enough, and the ban for repeat offenders is permanent. Going further than that smacks of a level of entitlement that's hard to take seriously.

    However: a multiplayer game that has an entry price ought to be shepherded enough to ensure players don't have a terrible initial experience. That's where the stake is. If my first few games consisted of being wallhacked to death, I'd be well within my rights to want, at the very least, a refund of my money, yes? The money was paid with the expectation that the product allowed all players to have a trouble-free experience. If that's not the case, why would I be happy with the price of entry becoming a sunk cost towards a deeply unattractive enterprise that rulebreakers gain more from?
    Last edited by Sulphur; 19th Jan 2018 at 16:51.

  8. #33

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    Those attacks do directly influence the potential income of Twitch (and the streamers affected) as they can disrupt what some consider an important part of the service. And Twicth is a large enough corporation to have the money to go after people like that.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    So... Exactly the same in both respects.

  11. #36
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    Okay, things are getting even scarier now.

    I'm guessing a lot of you will be aware of China's Black Mirror-esque system of "social credit".

    It's now being mirrored in gaming, with "good behaviour" in League of Legends and other Tencent games increasing your Tencent social credit score in, while "poor behaviour" decreases it.

    There are not enough WTFs in the world to convey my disgust at this.
    Last edited by Malf; 11th Apr 2018 at 12:00.

  12. #37
    Level 10,000 achieved
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Finland
    Just so we're clear, this isn't part of China's social credit system, it's a separate system that only applies to Tencent published games. Not sure if you knew that, but your post reads like they're the same thing.

    While I'm fine with cheaters getting punished and good behaviour being rewarded on a per-game basis, having a system that carries over between different games on a platform is indeed a bit scary. Seems like it could become a permanent black mark on your record that might be hard to recover from.

    About these systems that track your behaviour on a platform, youtube has already had a system like it for many years. IIRC I was in bad standing a few years ago(probably because of uploading too many videos with copyrighted music), but I just checked it again and everything seems hunky-dory now.

  13. #38
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    My bad, I did interpret that incorrectly on the first reading. Correcting the post to make it more representative.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: Netherlands
    Steam has something similar, with VAC bans sometimes affecting games other than the one the ban was issued for.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    I am, of course, fine with cheaters' consequences following them. The shield of anonymity is a big reason why the internet is so often a cesspit.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    More arrests. Allegations of trojans and identity theft, too.

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