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Thread: Thief, rebooted.

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    For an action game, a frictionless interface and streamlined mechanics are incredibly important. But in game that's not purely action, I think there is a bit more leeway to frustrate the player. For example, using the bow in Thief takes just a bit of effort -- it takes some time to draw the bow back fully and the projectiles arc, so there's some mastery involved in using it.

  2. #102
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    That's part of the simulation though, not the interface being difficult just to be difficult.

    I suspect the real reason most developers include gesture systems is to simplify the interface, and to enhance the illusion of being your character by "actually" casting your magic spells. Ironically they tend to fail on both counts. Simplifying the interface by not having a spell menu just pushes that complexity onto the player, and while I'm sure my character would have no trouble remembering a dozen runes and what they do because he's studied magic for years of his life, I'm just some guy who's playing the game and fuck if I can be bothered to remember all these symbols, especially if the game doesn't even recognize them correctly half the time.

  3. #103
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    A gesture-based spellcasting system is sort of a simulation too.

    I think there's plenty of room between Arx Fatalis's "I have to memorise all this crap and why doesn't it work and oh I'm dead" gesture system and "press left mouse click to throw fireballs". Simple, memorable shapes and pausing the game while drawing is how Okami does its gesture-based abilities, for example.
    Last edited by Starker; 9th Sep 2018 at 20:47.

  4. #104
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    You could take a page out of Ultima VIII and have the spells themselves conjured up through arcane rituals but 'charged' into a receptacle like a scroll or talisman that would be instant use. It'd be an interesting dynamic if it weren't as tortuous/irritating as UVIII's.

  5. #105
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    I'm just some guy who's playing the game and fuck if I can be bothered to remember all these symbols, especially if the game doesn't even recognize them correctly half the time.
    Now this is an interesting point.

    Where is the line between a "win" button and an in-game skill. I think the entirety of fun in a game comes down to this.

    In Mortal Combat 9 (I think it is 9) those X-Ray moves are done with a button press. But to do the massive combos you have to have great knowledge and skill with a character. The X-Ray moves are almost win buttons, though you have to charge them by getting enough hits.

    I think this division is what separates people who will love a game from those who will not. Thief's bow was great, to me, be cause there is no crosshair and there is an arc. It was similar in Red Orchestra - even using iron sights needed skill because the bullets arc and they also take time to travel; if you're sniping you'd have to lead the target AND account for bullet drop.

    I'm tempted to say if more devs thought about this stuff we'd get better games, but that doesn't account of taste; some people love those win buttons. I remember a guy at uni who would play Doom in God Mode for hours. I never got the appeal.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2006
    Location: Germoney
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Jesus christ, after we're done arguing what an RPG is again can we have the what is an immersive sim discussion too.
    It seems there's still guys who have learned little in all those years (and playing these fantastic games), I see.

    About a Thief reboot, who should be doing it anyways? Interestingly, the most Thief-y game I'ver personally played in the past couple years was Alien:Isolation -- which also was the most Shock like game in ages too, that is until Prey came around. That's not a dig at Dishonored or something (great stuff), however -- a core aspect of Thief is that your character is actually a real person, somebody who's deadly vulnerable. Super powered ninja stealth assassins able to mow down foes within the blink of the Outsider's eye just don't completely fit that bill. I have the suspicious that if LG had to ever tackle the Alien license, the end result would have been something similar in many -- if not quite all -- aspects. No doubt they'd have gone for official Oculus Rift support too at this stage of tech development, or maybe developed their very own.
    Last edited by samIamsad; 13th Sep 2018 at 00:31.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2006
    Location: Germoney
    Quote Originally Posted by samIamsad View Post
    IThat's not a dig at Dishonored or something (great stuff), however -- a core aspect of Thief is that your character is actually a real person, somebody who's deadly vulnerable. Super powered ninja stealth assassins able to mow down foes within the blink of the Outsider's eye just don't completely fit that bill. [/URL]
    For the record, this applies even without any of the supernatural powers. Corvo's/Emiliy's abilities are beyond merely human, with or without the touch of the Outsider.

  8. #108
    Dishonored is more like Deus Ex than Thief other than the setting. <--- seriously considering setting this up as a macro

    I want Arkane to do a gritty grounded-in-reality near-future proper cyberpunk game that plays like Thief and explores similar themes.

  9. #109
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    Dishonored is more like Deus Ex than Thief other than the setting. <--- seriously considering setting this up as a macro
    Or the level design. Or the social RPG aspects. Or the way the game plays, if you play more stealthily and non-lethally.

  10. #110
    I wouldn't say it's 1:1, but the stealth system in particular is straight Deus Ex (elevation, line of sight, distance), the non-lethal options in the first game are knocking people out from behind or using tranq darts, and you have a suite of augmented powers that either act passively or drain from a magical energy pool. And while there aren't as many in-mission roleplaying opportunities in DH as DX, Thief had exactly 0.

  11. #111
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Location: Southern,California
    if you took thief 2 gameplay and mixed it with tron movies theme would be my dream

  12. #112
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Eh, you guys just need to get over the fact that Dishonored subscribes to aspects of both. It's like the post-genre discussion never happened when Deus Ex released. Should I invoke the ImSim argument? Do you really want that? Huh?

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Pshaw! Take your nuance elsewhere, Shades-of-Grey Boy!

  14. #114
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Man, I'm so gonna ask a moderator to make that my member title.

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