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Thread: The Extra 10 Minutes

  1. #1

    The Extra 10 Minutes

    Two Wave Theory: An Defense of Shorter Time Limits on Games

    LaughingRat and I have been discussing game time length and we are very much disagreed. He sets his server to ADD 10 extra minutes to every map where I leave mine at the default.

    It is LaughingRat’s theory that the extra time allows for effective ghosting and it is an encouragement to end the DM playstyle and move onto a more thiefy style of play. I feel the extra time actually enhances the capabilities of the DM thief and rewards poor thief skills.

    I’ll allow LaughingRat to more fully express his views on the topic and speak for himself so that I don’t misrepresent his views. However, for your consideration I’d like to present my Two Wave Theory.

    Two Wave Theory: This theory states that a typical map experiences two distinct waves of thieves. These two waves are given time to operate because of the additional time allotted to each map.

    Wave One: Wave One is the DM thief. The thief buys a “confront the guards” loadout and has plenty of time to move around the map and KO all of the AI. They are able to take their time and be careful because of the additional time. At the end of Wave One the thief is able to “go for it” and make a move on an objective. He typically dies but exhausts guard resources such as mines, caltrops, and so forth. At the end of Wave One most or all AI are dead and Human Guard resources are spent or at least taxed.

    Wave Two: Wave Two is the loot/objective thief. He now knows where the Human guards are held up and he has a fresh loadout. He runs around and cleans up loot on the nearly bare map and is able to save an invis/flash/speed/crack/whatever combo to grab the gem or the book or whatever. He also has all the resources he needs to dance through an exit.

    What we are experiencing is exactly the opposite of what the additional time was supposed to effect. Skilled thieves may now take their time playing two distinct games. They have plenty of time to wax all the AI and they have plenty of time to gather all the loot 2 or 3 separate times.

    The argument IS NOT that thieves have X number of lives and the argument is NOT that thieves have X for resources. The problem is that the extra time allows a thief to first prep the map, die, and then go for objectives.

    IN GAME EXAMPLE:
    Sneaky & Sneaksy are two skilled ToB thieves. Too often, however, they have the time to KO half the guards, collect tons of loot and objectives and make a dash for the exit. In the unlikely event Mad_Gerbil somehow kills Sneaky & Sneaksy (I dreamed this once) they aren’t set back at all… in fact, they are now guaranteed to win. Why? Because even though they dropped 1500 in loot they have all the time they need to run through the entire map all over again. The resources they blew fighting AI the first time through are now saved for the poor, woefully inept Mad_Gerbil who is waiting at the exit for them.

    SUMMARY:
    I don’t think it was the intent of the game for two thieves on a five thief team to be responsible for grabbing all the objectives/loot twice! There should only be enough time for a pair of thieves to do half the map twice while the other thieves on the team do the other half of the map. Time for two thieves to do the whole map twice is TOO MUCH TIME.

    I think the extra time allows thieves to play two separate games. The longer time allotment is NOT taking care of the DM problem and only gives room for it to become even worse. Thieves now have the time to snipe from the roof for 1/2hr. (on some maps) before even begining to move towards capturing objectives.

    Anyways, I'm NOT complaining. This is just a theory. Wud do ya think?

  2. #2
    I agree. Too much thief time.

    I am a fairly quick thief and I get impatient . This leads to a lot of unnessicary deaths of mine. But at the same time, 20 really is more then enough time for everyone to complete the map OR die trying. Thats the way it should be. A lot of thieves can sit on their arse and play arround or whatever because they arent worried about time. This can be boring, and its unnessicary. I too experience the second wave syndrom, especially as a thief! Sometimes, with low health, and no pots or items, I was actually relieved when I died. I got all my items back and I get the objective.

    I think the time constraint that the devs put on us is reasonable and Its kinda fun to play under new rules. Think of it as a chalange. I like time constraints.

  3. #3
    Definitely agree with this. On particularly DMy maps like Nostalgia, it's especially apparent. Quite often, there will be a DM fest in the front yard until first few thief lives are lost, usually with a couple guard losses too, then it settles down into the thieves doing their thieving. Particularly teamy thieves will have a couple thieves keep the guards busy having fun in the yard while one or two others go for the lyre and loot.

    Likewise, it happens usually at least once a session where the guards be down to my last flares from the now-broken chest, 5-7 minutes left, with all the AI gone from DMing, but the thieves having fresh loadouts with invis, flashes, etc.

    It's an issue of balance, but one that could be worked out.

    Scoth

  4. #4
    ThieveryUT
    Member

    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: www.thieveryut.com
    My problem with long time limits is that I get so damn bored as a guard staring at empty streets for 15 minutes before the thieves try and do anything.

  5. #5
    I'm actually begining to think this is at the root of all my complaints up until this point. That being that often all the AI are gone before I see my first thief. If I kill the thief he has time to still complete the whole map with a fresh loadout while I'm expended with no lives left for a loadout for the new battle.

    The shorter time is one way the guards can win... it is an alternate way to win by intentionally stalling the thieves. Suddenly, killed a thief with 900 loot means something more than that thief getting a new load out and another 20 minutes to redo the map with no AI to worry about.

    Long lived guards are punished for living long.
    Thieves that die often are rewarded with a full load out with less obstacles.

    Time is the one obstacle the load out doesn't fix.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Lord Bafford's Manor
    Mad Gerbil does have a good point...there seems to be too much time for the thieves to complete each map. 40 mins IMO is more time than is necessary. The extra time DOESN'T prevent DM thieves. If the time would be lowered to 25 or 30 mins that seems to be plenty of time. 20 mins isn't quite enough and does promote DM. In most maps I have seen what Mad Gerbil is talking about...the first wave of thieves ware the guards down while ko'ing most of them. The second round is where they either try to complete the objectives....or just DM until the round is over. Maybe we will see more guard wins because of thieves not having the luxury of DMing. Back when the time limit was 20 mins the thieves would frequently lose due to time-up. If the time limit is too long thieves will use that to first DM then do the objectives BUT if there isn't enough time the thieves will just DM. So, having 25 to 30 mins IMO is in between the two so the games should play better that way.
    Sneaky-=:ToB:=-
    ToB ownz j00!!!!
    www.tearsofblood.com

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: Lying at bottom of Deck 1 elev
    Originally posted by ShadowThorn
    I agree. Too much thief time.

    I am a fairly quick thief and I get impatient .
    Very BAD combo, my friend...

    Patience is a virtue. I think 5 certain guards who wandered off to chase a rat on Flats might have proved that...

    Anyway, I think extra time is good. Guess what? Guards stand around for a long, long time. If you don't like that, then go hunting, run around. Stretch. Play catch with fellow guards. Or do what your SUPPOSED to do and camp (guard for the politcally correct) the exit. I think that extra time really helps for the end-game bum rush where all guards run to the exit and camp it. More often than not, thieves are forced to either run like hell and hope they beat the guards there (not my style) or wait them out and hope they get bored. To wait them out, you need time. For waiting 300 seconds, I managed to win in a completely hopeless situation, because of guards afflicted with A.D.D. They weren't paying attention, and for that, I won. Now THAT'S the way to win; good thieves will make it a point that the guards are forced to stare at an empty street for 15 minutes. To do that, you require time and most of all, patience!
    Last edited by SNAFU; 8th Jan 2003 at 20:31.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Lord Bafford's Manor
    Originally posted by SNAFU
    Very BAD combo, my friend...

    Patience is a virtue. I think 5 certain guards who wandered off to chase a rat on Flats might have proved that...
    LOL!!!! I was one of those guards and I wasn't chasing the rat. I was looking for more boxes and crates to stack in the exits. I had one and was running back to the exit and DING DING....THIEVES WIN! Grrrrrr.

    You sure had more patience than we did...good job
    Sneaky-=:ToB:=-
    ToB ownz j00!!!!
    www.tearsofblood.com

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: Lying at bottom of Deck 1 elev
    Originally posted by Sneaky
    LOL!!!! I was one of those guards and I wasn't chasing the rat. I was looking for more boxes and crates to stack in the exits. I had one and was running back to the exit and DING DING....THIEVES WIN! Grrrrrr.

    You sure had more patience than we did...good job
    Sure you were...

    How is that 5 guards COLLECTIVELY RUN OFF, and leave me ample opportunity to calmly climb down the ladder and WALK out the exit? I sat watching you guys for 5 minutes to wait for an opportunity when you all looked the other way. I got more than I expected...

    Thank you.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    I'm actually begining to think this is at the root of all my complaints up until this point. That being that often all the AI are gone before I see my first thief. If I kill the thief he has time to still complete the whole map with a fresh loadout while I'm expended with no lives left for a loadout for the new battle.
    If you haven't seen a thief at that point, why would all your equipment be expended. No, if the thieves are running around KOing the AI, you should still be quite fresh for the endgame.

    But here's another theory. Perhaps you're expended because you buy a bunch of the single most expensive tools the guard has, and use them as main weapons. I myself have been on the receiving end of three of Gerbil's firebolts in rapid succession. That's 300 of your starting money gone, and I'm not dead yet. Try re-evaluating your use of your REPLENISHABLE supplies (flares, bolts, melee weapon), and acquire some skill with them.

    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    The shorter time is one way the guards can win... it is an alternate way to win by intentionally stalling the thieves. Suddenly, killed a thief with 900 loot means something more than that thief getting a new load out and another 20 minutes to redo the map with no AI to worry about.
    I'm perplexed by the double standard here. Thieves are ONLY EVER SUPPOSED TO WIN BY OBJECTIVE, but guards are supposed to have two valid ways of winning?

    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    Long lived guards are punished for living long.
    But to hear you tell it, this is never an issue. There is no such thing as a long lived guard, because all thieves ever do is dash through the map, taking out all the guards.

    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    Thieves that die often are rewarded with a full load out with less obstacles.
    Now here is an issue. Leaving aside, for the moment, that the same is true for "DM'd" guards, and that a thief's death means he has to redo some objectives (including, possibly, non-monetary ones, which may now all be clumped together in one easily guarded pile, as with the "evidence" in Aquatone), possibly a fix, that wouldn't require shortening the time to default would be to up the dropped loot percentage, possibly even to 100%. Even if you're going to get a new loadout, I suspect the prospect of losing most or all of your loot would cause a lot more caution on the part of the thieves.

  11. #11
    Originally posted by LaughingRat
    [B]If you haven't seen a thief at that point, why would all your equipment be expended. No, if the thieves are running around KOing the AI, you should still be quite fresh for the endgame.
    No, the point is that when I do engage the thief if I die the thief wins (no lives left) and if I live the thief wins because he gets a new loadout and NOW I'm exhausted.

    But here's another theory. Perhaps you're expended because you buy a bunch of the single most expensive tools the guard has, and use them as main weapons. I myself have been on the receiving end of three of Gerbil's firebolts in rapid succession. That's 300 of your starting money gone, and I'm not dead yet. Try re-evaluating your use of your REPLENISHABLE supplies (flares, bolts, melee weapon), and acquire some skill with them.
    I buy 4 firebolts, typically.
    As you can see from the bolt vs. arrow testing we did, the arrows > bolts so why would I wanna get myself in a ranged weapons exchange I'm going to loose. My buy out, incidently, has no bearing on the theory.

    I'm perplexed by the double standard here. Thieves are ONLY EVER SUPPOSED TO WIN BY OBJECTIVE, but guards are supposed to have two valid ways of winning?
    I didn't say that. I'm saying I don't think a single thief should have time to carefully kill all the AI and then get all the loot and objectives. Typical games end with 1 or 2 guards left alive. It's impossible to guard a map with 2 guards when the thieves have 20 minutes left to run around and collect loot after killing everything.

    But to hear you tell it, this is never an issue. There is no such thing as a long lived guard, because all thieves ever do is dash through the map, taking out all the guards.
    I stated very cleary there are two waves. The first wave removes the AI and depletes human guard resources, the second wave gets objectives and loot.

    You are free to set your sever time to whatever you want and I'll likely play it. I'm just making the claim here that the extra time (as you can see others agree) end up with bored guards, DM'd AI, and sloppy thieving. The exact opposite effect the extra time is supposed to produce.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    You didn't comment on the possibility of a larger loot drop % as a potential solution, though.

    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    My buy out, incidently, has no bearing on the theory.
    Your loadout has a very definite effect on your gaming experience, which is what led you to formulate this theory in the first place. Guards that purchase a more CONSERVATIVE loadout don't run out of equipment anywhere near as quickly.

  13. #13
    LR:

    A larger % loot drop won't fix the problem, IMHO, because the theives have time to redo the entire map serveral times. The % might cost them a couple of minutes but since loot collection often doesn't happen until there are no AI left it can go pretty quickly. (I'm not even touching the loot respawn raping)

    As for my load out, I often kill a thief with one firebolt because I use a speed potion to catch the bastard and finish him with a sword. The only time the thief gets the whole load is when there are only 1 or 2 theives left or the thief is particularly dangerous or lucrative to kill.

    You got 3 firebolts because killing you is an event.

    As other posters here seem to indicate, my buy out, as annoying as you may find it, doesn't seem to have much bearing on the theory.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: Lying at bottom of Deck 1 elev
    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    As other posters here seem to indicate, my buy out, as annoying as you may find it, doesn't seem to have much bearing on the theory.
    It doesn't have much bearing on the theory, but it has bearing on how much you whine about having your ass handed to you...
    Kill 'em all. Let SHODAN sort 'em out.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    20 minutes is a good time limit. This is a game, and it's supposed to be fun. It's not fun waiting around for 15 minutes (or even walking around for 15 minutes, not finding any thieves) because the thieves are hiding in some shadow somewhere, waiting for the guards to get ADD.

    The only reason it's barely bearable for me, is that I have a 2nd computer right next to my main one - I often get lots of web-browsing done while guarding

    I also find it ironic that now that I can avoid most KO-inducing mistakes, I'm punished by only getting one life the entire game - because the AI is KO'ed so fast. I'd like a shorter time limit, because my one life can only last so long before I get KO'ed regardless of any precautions I take. Obviously the shorter time limit won't give me that extra life, but at least I wouldn't have to wait as long for the round to end.

    To attack from another direction, one sees thieves winning by DM about as often as winning by objectives. When guards win, almost all the time (from my experience) it's by killing all the thieves. The time limit almost never runs out, therefore guards have pretty much only one way to win.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    I agree with SNAFU -the more time for thieves the better in my opinion-if a Guard is sitting around bored and restless than thats the sign of a good thief cos he hasn't been spotted yet.

    Heck,as a Guard boredom comes with the job description.
    It's how Guards deal with the boredom than weeds out the professionals from the boys.

    When Guards sit around and moan about Thieves "taking their time" and "come on hurry up-nothings happening" this does nothing else but encourage dm thieving and eliminate stealth.
    And then 20 mins into the game when a Guard has got unexpectedly BJ KOed whilst occupying himself with building a nice tall pretty tower completely oblivious to the Thief slipping in behind him all the yells of "DM THIEF!" go up!

    The "2-wave" Thief theory is only applicable for Guards whos first instinct is to find the objective and sit there like a big overgrown lemon thereafter.For Guards whose first instinct is to round up the AI and position them in either unexpected unwelcome places for the Thief to find and also store them in safe places to use as surplus lives should a dm thief get away with attacking him-this 2-wave theory doesn't really apply as such.

    Basically less time DOES encourage more DM Thiefs-however on maps such as Aquatone or Bourgeouis (which are very Guard-favoured maps)extra time would still prove useless to the Thieves due to their mainly non-ghosting nature of design.

    Thieves that "rush the map" also use up all the surplus Thief-lives(very selfish in my opinion),which usually leave the Ghosters and shadow crawlers the last ones in the game.

    Guards can't really moan about Ghosting Thieves that take too much time if they don't like confrontational DM Thieves-it's got to be one or the other or you may as well play in single player as a Guard and see just how much fun that is....

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: In transit
    Are you having a go at my server here?

    I'm not sure that there's a problem here, as most servers offer 20 mins, Crackaz is 30 mins and Mog's (mine ) is 40 mins
    You can choose your server and hence your time

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: The Glow

    I have to agree with Rob_FILTH here.

    Human guards allready have an advatange because they inherently KNOW that some thievery will take place tonight. The AI guards play ignorant to enhance the gameplay, unfortuantly an human guard cannot ignore that he knows there are thieves on the premesis, and therefore must find and stab their eyes out.

    With a greater timelimit there is a greater 'gap' for which thieves to enter. Take for example a single room with a guard in it. And you tell the guard that a thief will enter in the next 2 minutes, what chance does the thief have? the guard will be running back and forth between the entrances like a mad gerbil! (This could be interpreted as an 'alert' guard)

    However, given the same situation where the time limit is increased to say 10 - 15 minutes, this would cause the guard to become sloppy, as guards on regular run-of-the-mill, i guard this frikkin place day-in day-out would actually be like

    I do not mean to knock your theory in any way Mad gerbil, I agree that in some games we do see the 2 waves of theives, though their habits are not as constant as you explain, sometimes a thief will rush an objective ignoring guards on the way. However, I have seen scenarios near identical to what you have stated, and yes, it is annoying both as a Guard, AND as a thief.

    On an of topic, how many people actually feel Guilty when they use up a thief life? I know I do.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    I am sorry, I don't have theivery yet (cause I don't have UT either) so please disregard this if I am way off base here, but exactly WHY do the thieves get extra lives? Just make the number of guards porportinal to the number of thieves (10 to 1? I don't know)Then there would be no 'fresh thief loadout' problem, no DM problem, you could effectively eliminate the time limit altogether (well, OK, don't give the taffers TOO long to sneak, but you understand my meaning.) If you give each thief only one life, then they will all have a grave sense of mortality, and do anything they can to live as long as possible, and in my eyes, make it a LOT more challenging. Of course this would really suck for the taffer that gets sent to the builder right away...maybe he can come back as a rat until the match is over.

    Again I haven't played thievery, so please don't mock me too much. Maybe I am underestimating the power of a smart guard.

    Kiech

  20. #20
    Originally posted by Kiech Bepho
    I am sorry, I don't have theivery yet (cause I don't have UT either) so please disregard this if I am way off base here, but exactly WHY do the thieves get extra lives? Just make the number of guards porportinal to the number of thieves (10 to 1? I don't know)Then there would be no 'fresh thief loadout' problem, no DM problem, you could effectively eliminate the time limit altogether (well, OK, don't give the taffers TOO long to sneak, but you understand my meaning.) If you give each thief only one life, then they will all have a grave sense of mortality, and do anything they can to live as long as possible, and in my eyes, make it a LOT more challenging. Of course this would really suck for the taffer that gets sent to the builder right away...maybe he can come back as a rat until the match is over.

    Again I haven't played thievery, so please don't mock me too much. Maybe I am underestimating the power of a smart guard.

    Kiech
    The guard lives wander around as vunerable AI.
    The thief lives are banked.

    The guards have more lives, but they all go bye bye.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: a tract of land designated for a purpose
    Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
    The guard lives wander around as vunerable AI.
    The thief lives are banked.

    The guards have more lives, but they all go bye bye.
    How about this, then:

    There are only as many guards on the map as there are human guard players in the game. That way, the guard lives are "banked", just like the thief lives are?

    Obviously, that's a ridiculous suggestion. I made it to point out that the human guards get some mileage out of the fact that all the guard spawns are on the map from the beginning of each round. It's up to you to protect your own respawns and use them in an effective manner, or leave them out in the cold, as you choose.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2002
    Location: Ohio
    yes, and guards usually get at least 2 times as many lives as thieves.
    Signed,
    Richard M. Nixon.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Phoenix
    Rather cryptic response...but ok, you guys don't like my idea.

    Still, I bet it would stop Mad_Gerbil's constant posts about how thieves always get the upper hand.

    Kiech

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: The place where I make comics.
    Make guard lives banked also and totally independant from AIs that are alive.

    That would be my solution to the "KO every AI you can, then run the guards out of their equipment"
    Signatures? We don't need no stinking signatures.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: los angeles,ca
    I don't believe it will stop his constant posts
    mad gerbil himself said he's a constant whiner

    methinks he will find somethin to bitch about

    LOL

    PS I like the idea of maybe some guard lives being banked also
    might help balance things a bit

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