Nostalgia on the Brain

[Mad_Gerbil]

A QUICK ANALYSIS OF NOSTALGIA:

Kore and myself were working on thief strategies for Nostalgia. We were trying to identify what we thought a thief team might do to win. I’m sure this will come as no surprise to you, but we were not at all encouraged. The map is clearly a thief map.

Location of Loot:
On the first floor of the map excluding main gallery: 740
On the first floor of the map including main gallery: 1325
On the second floor of the map there is 550
The lyre can be in 1 of 3 different places. Its value is 1000.

Analysis:
The second floor, which contains the least amount of loot, is by far the most dangerous floor to be a thief. The linear rooms, many well lit, provide little comfort to a fleeing thief. The dinning room looks like it has lots of loot, but the cups are worth 10 each and the risk involved is high. I wouldn’t even go anywhere near the second floor if I were a thief. There is next to no loot and it’s a death trap.

The first floor also has well lit areas but each area is compartmentalized and near the wonderful darkness of the lawn. Although these side areas (not main gallery) look as if they are relatively loot free, in reality they are actually quite a bonanza. I found 260 in the stupid stable alone.

Ways to Improve Map for Guards:
1) Drop the value of the Lyre to 250 or remove it altogether.
2) Put locking front doors on the house.
3) Remove shed from side wall gate so that thieves cannot jump over wall.
4) Move more loot to second floor.

Summary:
The map is one of my favorites but leans heavily in favor of thief.



ADVANCED THIEF STRATEGY TO WIN EVERY SINGLE TIME (50% loot drop):
Two thieves, and 3-4 lives can win this map every single time.
Thief One is the bank vault.
Thief Two is the runner.
Both thieves buy 2 invis, 2 speed, 2 flash and one buys lockpicks, the other 2 catwalks.

Thief One gives all his stuff to Thief Two, kills himself and waits at the exit.
Thief Two now has 4 invis, 4 speed, 4 flash, 2 catwalks, 1 lockpicks. He runs the first floor totally invisible, silent, and fast and he collects 1325 loot. He avoids the lyre and the second floor. He runs back to the exit, kills himself and Thief One picks up the spilled 650 in loot.

Thief Two again has the benefits of two full loadouts. He can easily nab another 600 on the first floor using 4 invis, 4 flash, 4 speed, and 4 catwalks.

The pair has generated 1800 in loot without getting the lyre and without going to the second floor. An alternate strategy using 4 lives total would have the bank vault thief at the exit kill himself where their total is 1400. Thief Two cleans out the respawn loot on the first floor, escapes to exit and THEN the bank vault thief (respawn) picks up his dropped loot. By the time the guards get the "1500 loot" has been captured the thieves are already in the exit.

Other thieves on the team could simply annoy guards and provide "noise" for the Runner Thief to get his work done.

Anyways, based on this strategy, the RLF will need to request that the loot dropped be at least 80% for the scrimage on Sunday. It is very likely that will be the standard in all of our future matches as well.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Alternate Strategy for Thieves:

6 lives.
3 thieves use two each.
Assume Lyre Spawns in Dinining Room.

1st thief just bolts for the dinning room and grabs the lyre (2X speed, 2X invis, 2X catwalk). Assume he is killed. He now has 500 loot and it as exit, he gives his loadout to the second thief who repeats the exact same proceedure. Then the 3rd theif does the same thing. When the third thief dies he spawns in the exit and the three have a total of 1500 loot AND are in the exit already.

There is no way to defend against that because the strategy is FOR THE THIEF TO DIE which is exactly what the guards will try to effect, thereby loosing. The thieves have a total of 12 invis, 12 speed, 12 catwalk to get three thieves to one known location. All they have to do is pick the item up and die and this doesn't even begin to deal with the unfortunate possibility they get away with the lyre.

Game Over.

[Mad_Gerbil]

DISCLAIMER:
Before anybody thinks I'm complaining I want to make it clear that I am FOR the game having thief maps and guard maps because the variety is fun. Also, I like to think I've introduced thief strategies that are nearly unbeatable and something fresh and new.

[PhaeThorn]

Only lame thieves would kill themself for extra items. In that way, thieves can always win. The rest ... well your maby right. I don't really care either. I like guarding nostalgia, because of the surprise atacks i can make. And 50% of the guard time, i win and 50% i loose. And well ... i don't care if i loose.

That's my point of view

[dha_thief]

I agree with MG and PT.
It is a thief map with a bit too much loot, but always one of the best map to play (thief or guard) a classic map.
The thief killing themself.. hummm never saw that, but i saw pretty strange guards falling in some craters to get new loadout.... of fire arrows I guess ?
And the best way to win is by ghosting, even if it is boring for the guards....hehe remember that game MG ?...BTW PT was there too but got kill by a stupidnoob hehe (sorry just had to tell)

[Immortius]

I agree that there should be doors at the front of the house. The mere presence of the door would help stop guards getting distracted by thieves get out of the spawn area which occasionally results in an all out melee too. Then again the thief brightness fix may well be enought to prevent this.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Originally posted by PhaeThorn
Only lame thieves would kill themself for extra items. In that way, thieves can always win. The rest ... well your maby right. I don't really care either. I like guarding nostalgia, because of the surprise atacks i can make. And 50% of the guard time, i win and 50% i loose. And well ... i don't care if i loose.

That's my point of view

No, not only lame thieves would kill themselves for extra items. Thieves that wanna win would do that as well. Lives are a resource, you don't get points for not using them. The goal is to win the scrimage within the rules, not adhere to vague notions of "lame" or "not lame". (LaughingRat has an article on that which you may find interesting)

As for guards winning on that map, I'd agree that on the public server the ratio is 50/50 but teams play on an entirely different level. For instance, the melee that occurs on the front lawn.... there isn't a thief team that is going to engage in that nonsense. Oh they might snipe from one of the high, remote ledges to keep guards busy but they aren't gonna go toe to toe with three guards on the front lawn just for fun.

It's a screaming good map to ghost, imho.

[WildBill]

Gerbil, remember, you picked this map. ^_^

I can, however, see your point. I don't think anyone would play in such a lame fashion, and in order to prevent it, I'd like to suggest 100% loot drop. Definitely the more realistic option, and makes what you call a "thief map" a bit more challenging.

Also, thanks for the information. ^_^

[Mad_Gerbil]

WildBill:

Oh, I'm not really a fan of a 100% loot drop. I'm not sure what the right number is but I just wanna avoid the 50% because it can create a great deal of loot that is impossible to guard.

I guess what I'd consider reasonable on any map (and it varies from map to map) is that a good thief who dies with a ton of loot should be able to hang onto enough so that when gathering it up again he has 1 or 2 less "difficult" rooms to visit out of the 6 he had to visit to get the loot in the first place.

[WildBill]

I'm offering 100%, and don't think it would be much of a hassle. If you want to be kind and try to give us lowly ghosters an inkling of a chance and raise it up, I'd go for 75% instead, which is likely a bit more balanced for Nostalgia. Let LR know about this and hope he doesn't bite your head off. ^_^

[PhaeThorn]

Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
No, not only lame thieves would kill themselves for extra items. Thieves that wanna win would do that as well. Lives are a resource, you don't get points for not using them.

And you call that, "not lame"

Come on man. I know you need a shrink .... but i din't thought it was THAT bad.

[Ghostly_ apparition]

just my 2 cents worth here.
whats wrong with 100 percent loot drop?

Is there any thief or burgler in real life that you know of'
that has taken his loot with him to the grave?

[PhaeThorn]

Originally posted by Ghostly_ apparition
just my 2 cents worth here.
whats wrong with 100 percent loot drop?

Is there any thief or burgler in real life that you know of'
that has taken his loot with him to the grave?

Lots of them, they get busted, put in jail, they never tell where the money is, after some time they get free, and their enjoying the stolen money

Anyways, nothing wrong with the 100% loot drop. To be honest, i'd like to see that. It's anoying sometimes, but .... it does chalenge your skill more. You have to be extra carefull and stuff ....... yup I like 100% loot drop

[NeoPendragon]

Gerbil has way too much time on his hands.

[WildBill]

Originally posted by NeoPendragon
Gerbil has way too much time on his hands.

Or he's very, very scared.

[LaughingRat]

Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
3) Remove shed from side wall gate so that thieves cannot jump over wall.

Until such time as the sewer covers are fixed, this would be a VERY bad idea. It is sometimes almost completely impossible to exit the sewers on the exit side of the wall.

A couple other notes: Gerb, don't rely on your loot counts. Loot spawns randomly on that map. An example is the 260 you found in the stables. Sometimes there is non there at all. The small second floor gallery with the locked door to the outside stairs, and the four pedestals is another examply. Four items always spawn there, but they're not always of the same value.

Just a heads-up for your strategy planning.

[mopgoblin]

I think Mad_Gerbil is refering to the shed which allows thieves to jump over one of the walls blocking access to the rear outdoor area, not the scaffolding on the main outer wall.

[-=V12US=-]

Originally posted by mopgoblin
I think Mad_Gerbil is refering to the shed which allows thieves to jump over one of the walls blocking access to the rear outdoor area, not the scaffolding on the main outer wall.

I don't see why removing the shed would be good for the game. First of all, it's a one-way system, second, the wall is perfectly lit, and third, if need be, any thief can go through the barn instead (which has loot and more dark areas anyway).

I think I just won a prize for usage of the most comma's in one sentence.

[LaughingRat]

Originally posted by mopgoblin
I think Mad_Gerbil is refering to the shed which allows thieves to jump over one of the walls blocking access to the rear outdoor area, not the scaffolding on the main outer wall.

Could be. I had forgotten about that. Maybe yes, maybe no, then. The other points are things he may not have taken into account, though, and still stand, either way.

[Buho]

Anyone who kills themself for more health/items/etc. is lame, and I consider intentionally doing this just as bad as cheating. I don't think anyone but Smokey would try this, but if this does happen, everyone is alerted to what happened via the message that so-and-so died. Inspect the area where he died. If it's convinient for the thief, it's suspect. If it continues, it's grounds to kick.

Of course, cratering on Flats is quite common and any suicide/crater is arguable. Look for persistence and location.

Mad Gerbil, you want to drop banked loot for the Sunday skirmish to 80% originally-posted values? Please clarify on the correct thread. Also, as far as Sunday's skirmish goes, dropped loot will always be 100%, since the thief team will be full and any thief that does not respawn drops all his loot.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Originally posted by WildBill
Or he's very, very scared.

No, not at all.
In fact, I think sharing my findings with the thief community expresses my contempt for their abilities unlike anything else could.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Phaethorn and Buho:

I think tactical suicide is a very legitimate way to win a scrimage or a match. Now I can see very clearly why you'd think it lame but I wouldn't begrudge a team a victory if they used such a tactic.

In fact, what happens is they walk away the winner and you're left crying "lamer".

The longer I play online games the happier I am to play with people who are simply not cheating (hacks/ bug exploits). It's a great struggle to get people to go with that standard (no cheating).

Fact is, the tactics I described are basically what happens on Nostalgia anyways. The deaths may not be planned, but the benefits of the loot are still there and they are used.

[Mad_Gerbil]

Originally posted by LaughingRat
Could be. I had forgotten about that. Maybe yes, maybe no, then. The other points are things he may not have taken into account, though, and still stand, either way.

I think the over the wall exit is necessary.
I was talking about the tool shed.

I also agree the sewer lids are a real problem on that map. I've become trapped in the sewers before and couldn't get out. Even now it's a real touch and go issue to get the heck out of there.

Obviously, any changes to the map would have to include fixing the sewer lids.

[Mad_Gerbil]

[PhaeThorn]

Originally posted by Mad_Gerbil
Phaethorn and Buho:

I think tactical suicide is a very legitimate way to win a scrimage or a match. Now I can see very clearly why you'd think it lame but I wouldn't begrudge a team a victory if they used such a tactic.

In fact, what happens is they walk away the winner and you're left crying "lamer".

Then that is your opinion, and your opinion only. My opinion on the other hand, is that it's called lame behavior. It is called lame for these things:

• - Ripping a life away, from the thieves team. And therefor not giving the chance for a normal thief to spawn one extra time. It's as bad as spawnraping. If a guard spawnrapes, the thief never had a chance. But it's worse, when they can't spawn at all.
  
  - Getting more items then you should have . ( with the exeption of killing a guard or thief, and the items from a dead teammate. )
  
  - It's using a bug. And bug-using is lame. ( the bug that you can kill yourself for extra items )
  
  - the simple low-life tactic is lame on itself .

Now, don't you come with that " ooooooh, but in that article they said there is no such thing as lame behavior. It's only a orriginal way of winning "
You know just as i do, the article doesn't count for this stuff.