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Thread: Standing Up for Thief: Deadly Shadows

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: The Forbidden Library

    Standing Up for Thief: Deadly Shadows

    Thief: Deadly Shadows Rocks!!!

    Disclaimer: I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything by starting this thread, if you think Thief: Deadly Shadows sucks that's your business. This thread has two purposes, 1.) It is simply a place for people who happen to like Thief: Deadly Shadows to state why they do and 2.) My response to all the criticism of Thief 3 that is already on this forum, note, I'm not attempting to show why anyone is wrong, what we are dealing with here is a matter of opinion, NOT FACT. So while everyone has every right to their own ideas, there isn't one big consensus on this forum that Thief: Deadly Shadows sucks, and I feel compelled to demonstrate that. I've spent the time to read people's criticisms and bear that in mind while I play myself. I've heard what you've had to say already, I have listened to you. I am alarmed by the fact that there's already so much whining, how ever seriously or jokingly it was intended. Can we say something positive? Here is my response:

    -Yes, Lock picking is hard, frustrating and dangerous, GOOD!!! We're Thieves, what, should it be handed to us? The game is a mole times more realistic than either of the originals, though I concede that some people don't like realism, they want a game, that's sounds like an editiorial statement, I don't mean it that way, the more realistic, the more close to how it would be if any of us actually tried stunts like Garrett, the Better! The more realistic the stimulation, the more realistic my physiologoical responses are to it, yes precious, I said pyhsiological. I mean adrenaline, I mean the animal glee of sneaking up on somebody and...That is one of the many reasons we play this game, but few people here ever comment on that. Thief: Deadly Shadows does a better job of giving me that than the first two. In short, I don't object to any of the changes in gameplay and interface and they were real smart and kept the storyline/acting/writing perfectly intact. All this is just an opinion.
    -No, the map doesn't tell you excatly where you are when you look at it, does a real map do that? You have to keep track of where your going yourself. The old maps were too easy.
    -I like the ladders, I like being able to see Garrett in first person mode.
    -I like the redesigned arrows. They aren't all roughly the same shape with just different colors, and there's some detail.
    -Heck, I love the old graphics engine but ya know what, it was getting stale, doing the same missions over and over again was getting stale and no, fan missions are not necessarily a better solution, ghosting more and more strictly isn't necessarily a better solution. No one here has Stephen Russell, or any of the other voice actors, or is thus far, a better writer than those who concieved the City, no one here can immerse me the way they can. We may be loyal fans, but never forget, we did not invent this universe. Plus the first two games don't finish the story, I hate cliffhanger endings.
    -I'd focus more on what I liked about the game, but I'm not yet comfortable doing that, I haven't had it long enough to articulate any of that. I do know I like it a lot. It's odd, considering that this is a fansite the amount of anger and disappointment I've already read in various posts. The Game is made by more or less the same people, what, does a Thief Game have to accumulate some kinda seniority around here before it is accepted?I've been waiting for this for three and a have years! Longing for it! I am really happy about it. I've seen no other threads saying really positive things about it. Is that not "kool", I really could care less, I LIKE IT, WHO AGREES WITH ME?
    Last edited by Keeper Jonas; 27th May 2004 at 21:59.

  2. #2
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper Jonas
    The game is a mole times more realistic than either of the originals
    So you contend that the loot beacons, arrow trails, inability to be blinded by your own flashbombs, lethality of water, and blindness-healing powers of the blackjack are more realistic?

    "Look at you, hacker, a pathetic creature who smells of elderberries. Now leave, insect, or I shall taunt you a second time."

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: The Forbidden Library
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    So you contend that the loot beacons, arrow trails, inability to be blinded by your own flashbombs, lethality of water, and blindness-healing powers of the blackjack are more realistic?

    If not being blinded by flashbombs bothers you, it's your right to say so but I didn't intend this thread as place to argue over singular and specific details of the game and their pros or cons, read the title. I meant this mainly to serve as a place for people who like the game to post comments like my first one without being barraged by little details like not being blinded by flash bombs, start your own thread, or go to one of the many others on this fourm where such opinions already have sway. I like the game, I hope I'm not the only one here who does. Our (Or my?) opinions are valid too, there will always be a large amount of complaining, I'll stick with the minority and praise, cliche yes, draw what conclusions you will, I won't back down.
    Last edited by Keeper Jonas; 27th May 2004 at 21:55.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2002
    Location: Florida, USA
    I'll add my "here, here" to the coolness of Theif: DS..... and list a few of the things that I've seen so far that I like:

    + Voice talent... while DX: IW used some of the same voice talent as the original, it isn't quite the same situation as with Theif. Garrett sounds like himself, you find old "friends" from the last two games making a return in the people in the City. and to go with that....

    + Conversations.... not only do we have the conversations of the previous game, but now we've got interaction between NPCs outside the normal scripted conversations.

    + Plays smooth.... DX: IW was less than optimized, Theif on the other hand shows they put a lot of effort into making the game run smooth.

    + Loot glint, while it does look really goofy on people as they're walking down the street (esp. with things other than their money-purse), it does help in the hunt for the valuable stuff. It could have been a lot worse, I think they did it pretty good.

    + Lock Picking! Oh YEAH! I do have to try it without the "vibrate" feature of the XBox to see how hard it would be with just a mouse/keyboard type situation (it's not all that hard when you just have to feel around for it). The new lock-pick system does make you feel more like YOU are picking the lock. (but, yes, the locks in the middle of the doors are wierd).

    + The City.... the "free roam" city is fun, and actually selling off what you steal expands the scope of the game, but they've not made it a chore. On top of that since everything carries over from mission to mission it gives people an insentive to be as efficient as possible with what they use on a mission.

    + The BOX!!!! Thank Gawd they didn't use that terrible box they had in the stores (that one with the white background).... it's a little thing, but at least what they picked is more fitting for the style of the game itself.

    I'm sure there's more, but this is keeping me away from playing

  5. #5
    Well for me, being a die hard fan of the originals ever since the original Thief demo hit back in 98', the game is a mix for me. I won't write a full review until I beat the game, so at least then I have a good handle on things.

  6. #6

    standing up for T:DS

    It seems like a lot of people are stuck on the negatives of Deadly Shadows without mentioning the positives. For instance, sure you should be blinded by your own flash bombs, but at least now flash bombs aren't automatic blackjacks. That was cheap. Now they're for escapes and mad dashes past guards. Seems to me to make more sense. Furthermore, what about the AI??? They notice open doors, missing guards, and just about everything else. It is superb.

    I also really like how much choice we have. What mission to do when, where to roam in between missions. Whether to ally with the Pagans or the Hammers... There's so much new here. Just because the game play is slightly different, doesn't mean it's not better in a lot of ways.

    As far as the loot glint, if there was that kind of glint in T1/T2 it would have sucked. However in T: DS the loot in general is far smaller and more out of the way. If there were no glint it would be near impossible - not just the same as T1/2.

    That's just my two cents. I loved the first two games, the original for its groundbreaking style of play and dark, engaging plot line, and the second for its brilliant variety of missions. I already love the third because three missions in I am already involved in so many ways with so many different plots within the city.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Off the TTLG bus
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    So you contend that the loot beacons, arrow trails, inability to be blinded by your own flashbombs, lethality of water, and blindness-healing powers of the blackjack are more realistic?

    I'd completely forgotten about you. But don't worry; I just added you. You're just underneath Warren.

  8. #8

    Definitely Rocks

    I have been a strictly PC gamer since 1984, when graphics meant good text and stick figures. Originally, I had no intention of buying Thief 3 for XBox until I saw the system requirements. Next year is my upgrade year, so I found a good deal and bought the box 3 weeks ago. Needless to say I have had to practice a lot to be able to switch from my trusty mouse to a controller, but for Thief I was willing to persevere.

    As I love games, including all FMs, but have never attempted to build them, I do not know a mesh, from a texture, from a brush, and Dromed shall ever remain a mystery to me. My limit with editing is following other gamers' instructions on how to tweak my .ini files.

    This said, in spite of lethal water, non-blinding flashbombs, weird lock mechanisms and happy trails of light and glint, I think that Thief 3 is actually the best of the three games so far. It has enough prettiness and novelty to amaze me, music to die for, and a totally immersive plot. My idea of immersion is not whether I have to wait a few seconds for a zone to load, or can see Garret's feet, but rather whether I want to know what is going to happen to me (Garret) next, and caring about that occurrence.

    On this score, this game has got me engrossed to the point of delaying bathroom trips and sleep. I can not address the technical points that have some in an uproar, but as for gameplay the game is extraordinary. Personally, I am grateful to Eidos, Ion Storm and all the people involved for a great game which I shall play over and over, until I get the PC version and the wherewithal to play it, and I shall then continue to play it some more.

    Hoping for an editor, so those of you so inclined can start building more FMs immediately.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Tampa
    i like it too> control felt akward at first< but now i love it

  10. #10
    Didn't care for the controls much until partway through the training mission, but it kicks ass now. If it weren't for the zillion posts complaining about rope arrows, water, etc I doubt I'd notice any of it was missing. I think when I go back to play 1 and 2 again I'm going to miss the loot glint.

    Edit: One other thing...pick up a bowl and throw it a few times at the guard standing outside your apartment. Nice to see they fixed that after DX:IW.

    Jason
    Last edited by Jason Moyer; 28th May 2004 at 03:39.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: sleeping
    this is an amazing game. I'm really feeling bad for the people who either 1.) can't seem to enjoy it because of things like loot glint and loading zones, or 2.) decided not to buy it for their own various reasons.

    I am about as hardcore a Thief fan as they come, and I was skeptical as hell about the changes that were being made and whether it would be true to the legacy. personally, and it's just the opinion of one random fan that no one cares about anyway, T: DS has met my admittedly high expectations and in most ways exceeded them. this is Thief, plain and simple. it's the same immersion, the same ambience, the same feeling of being the best thief who ever lived in a huge City full of intrigue... I'm getting sentimental here, but it amazes me that so many people are so put off by loot glint, of all things, that they can't see the game underneath it. maybe in a year everyone will look back at these threads and think "my god, look how much we all overreacted about this stupid crap".

    anyway, no, you're not the only one who likes it, and I'll go crawl back under my hole now.

  12. #12
    I'm still highly optimisitic about Thief 3, I'll be very happy when it gets released in Britain. From what I've seen, all the criticism is along the lines of 'Thief 3 is different to its prequels'. Funny that, being a different game and all.

    While I can't make a real judgement until I play it, I still think it's a bit feeble to reject changes and new innovations on principle. When Thief 2 was released, all the criticism was based on how little had changed from the original - same engine, practically the same graphics, just new missions and new items. Personally I'll be happy to see big changes, so long as the 'essence' of Thief remains - why pay out 35 quid for a game I've already got? I want a challenge, not something entirely reliant on ideas that I've already been used.

    Looking at this thread it's great to see it can be very enjoyable if you accept it. It's a shame some people are letting miniscule details put them off.

  13. #13
    I've changed my mind on loot glint, it seems necessary considering the amount of junk present in the levels. I could do without the arrow trails though. But one thing that's bothering me (apart from ISA being too lazy to support EAX1&2), is that guards don't react to broadheads. Try shooting an arrow at a stone surface near them. Makes hell of a noise, but no reaction from the guard (on Expert).

  14. #14
    I have not played the game yet. My only complaint is that I have money to buy a GeForce 5200, and I thought to save a little more to buy a 5600, but I read that even on a GeForce 4600 the game ran at 800x600 and 20-30 fps. What the hell am I supposed to do with a crappy GeForce 5600 then? Besides, I will be missing the best part of TDS too (i.e. the sounds), because I was asking about Audigy 2 prices here and I will have to save US$ 150 to buy that damn sound card too. Down with Ion and Eidos! I hate them. Since Deus Ex I am suffering this company, but I won't buy any of their games (present Thief included) anymore. I would prefer to buy cracked versions instead of giving my bucks to those negligent or evil people, I don't know under what category they should be placed.

    Ah!, I am a Thief fan, not a real thief. I don't have the guts to be one. I say to you this because you seem to base your argument on the fact that all Thief fans must tolerate flaws in the game because they are real thiefs, IMHO. Maybe I am wrong, but I concluded this from your looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong post.


    [Edit~David] Please do not quote the entirety of very large posts and it serves no puropse whatsoever. If you need to quote something, only quote the parts you need. [/Edit]

  15. #15
    Haven't played the game, but I just want to say that;

    Loot glint - Garrett has the ability to "appraise" items, that is, because of his experience, he can sort the good stuff from the crap.
    Loot glint emulates this ability for us.

    AlfredZat, like it or not, these companies are our only chances of ever getting more good Thief games. If the X-Box style changes let the game sell droves on X-Box, it's a small price to pay for an editor, to change the things we don't like about it.
    And, more money for these companies, may even mean a more PC oriented Thief game in the future, in the form of a patch, mission pack, or even a whole new game.

    If anyone, the only people you're hurting by refusing to buy the game on principal, is the Thief community itself.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Cincinnati
    Well, I've called in sick 3 days in a row now since I haven't had much sleep at night.

    Last night's Thieving effort went on until 7:40am.

    I AM going to work today....

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Australia
    "I meant this mainly to serve as a place for people who like the game to post comments like my first one without being barraged by little details like not being blinded by flash bombs"

    You wrote this in a public forum so that everyone could agree with you?!? Yeah, um...good luck with that..

    Paulcoz.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: Hammer Cathedral
    I'm a die hard fan of the originals and I love this game so far. There are a few things that aren't hot but I love many of their additions to the gameplay.

    I don't like the arrow streaks, and one side-mission thing I won't mention. But other than that, I am really enjoying this game.

    I would prefer to buy cracked versions instead of giving my bucks to those negligent or evil people, I don't know under what category they should be placed.
    People always try to rationalize it.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Domarius
    Loot glint - Garrett has the ability to "appraise" items, that is, because of his experience, he can sort the good stuff from the crap.
    Loot glint emulates this ability for us.
    It also emulates his apparent ability to instantly home in on valuable items no matter how far away they are, how big they are, or how much light is falling on them. If the object is anywhere within the field of view currently being displayed on your monitor, it will start glowing.

  20. #20
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Kharan
    I've changed my mind on loot glint, it seems necessary considering the amount of junk present in the levels.
    So ISA decided to treat the symptom instead of the disease?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    So you contend that the loot beacons, arrow trails, inability to be blinded by your own flashbombs, lethality of water, and blindness-healing powers of the blackjack are more realistic?

    My copy has not arrived yet, so I can't comment on many of the things you've listed, but it doesn't seem out of the relm of possibility to assume that if you throw a flashbomb, you'd know to shut your eyes briefly or to squint a bit. They may have not modeled it in a way that reflects that in the game, but I find that a plausible explanation.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Nov 1999
    Location: Boulder, Colorado, USA

    If my opinion counts for anything...

    I am just saying that this Thief3 is way more good than it is bad. Load zones break immersion, but after awhile I come to expect load zones. The zones are somewhat larger than DX2, and far more interesting. So, I can tolerate and generally ignore load zones.

    This game has great replay potential, great immersion overall, great non-linearity, and it even performs better than DX2.

    The value of this game is the freedom of choice. Your choices have consequences.

    I vote

  23. #23
    As I mentioned in another thread, people unhappy with the game aren't so much hung up on niggling details like lack of flash-bomb blinding, etc, as they are with the fact that this game will not help them feel like they did the first time they played Thief: The Dark Project.

    What those people really seem to want is for Ion Storm to release a time machine that can not only take them back to the first time they played Thief, but that can also replicate their exact sense of excitement and wonder at the time, and repeat the feelings they had for T2 as well.

    I find it hard to look at this game as non-"Thiefy"... it's got the same sort of sound effects and voice talent as the previous two, all the story elements from the previous games are there (well, except for the weird fishmen) and the world itself is, if anything, more developed visually than it was in the first two installments. I've enjoyed it immensely, and I've long believed that the original Thief games are two of the best PC games ever made. In fact, why some sort of major motion picture involving Garrett and the Thief "universe" hasn't been made still escapes me-- it's such a fantastic world in terms of visuals and characters.

  24. #24

    Bought it today..have been enjoying it..

    As I said on another post, It does not have the familiar feel of T 1/2. I suspect that will change. I'm sure it will grow on me like the others. I don't think it will replace 1/2 because of the intimacy involved with making missions..and the fact that I've played it a gazillion times. I will admit, I was a little leary of the controls.. I'm sure I'll get over it. I'm very glad it's here and I look forward to giving my full word on it after I finish the game..which hopefully will take a long,long while.

  25. #25
    New Member
    Registered: May 2001
    Location: Rio de Janeiro - Brasil
    The post above mirrors my feelings exactly, I saw no one complaining about the core gameplay, the story, the characterization... All people do is nag about peanuts like Arrow Trails and loot glint. "Oh my! the game is a Thief with decent graphics instead of the crap we got back then, on top of a gameplay experience similar to the great one we had back then, but they made the loot GLINT!!! Let's burn ISA down!!!"

    I have not played the game (my hardware is not good enough), but everything I've read points to a great experience. The guy from gamespot had much more serious complaints but he gave a 8+ to the game. The guy who posted his impressions in The Circle also liked the game a lot. So, let's just complain about trails and glints. Bah.

    I may agree that the hardware reqs are a tad too high, but that's another issue not related to how good or bad playing the game actually is.

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