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Thread: Standing Up for Thief: Deadly Shadows

  1. #76
    jtr7
    Guest
    No I'm not. Every post of mine in this thread is in direct response to the posts made from January 10, 2009 onward, starting with Necromancer pwyll's post.

    Sparhawk quoted a 2004 comment and responded like it was only made yesterday.

    Is there an option to disable viewing post dates I don't know about?

  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Germany
    So just because it's old it means it's not allowed to be answered anymore? Or is there some timelimit on answeres?

    The whole thread was bumped only recently because somebody responded to it. Since I haven't seen it before I posted, and I usually read the content of a posting, not it's header where it was originated, who posted it or when it was posted. And if you don't like to read answers to old threads, why are you reading them in the first place? It's not as if somebody forces you to read old threads.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    +1 for Thief DS. It was the first Thief game I played. I started out with the demo one day cos my internet connection was down and Ive become a big fan of the series as a whole ever since.

    I kind of wish rope arows were in the game but dont miss them as much since they were really not THAT important to the actualy single player experience in the first two games. They were mainly useful for all the extra retarded shit that we Thief fans get upto in the game. If the rope arrows could be used on more surfaces, werent buggy and allowed you to swing about, THEN I would really miss them.

    Arrow Trails : In the first two games, the arrows moved slower, were larger and the graphics allowed you to see the arrows flight clearly. In TDS, arrow trails serve the same purpose, they allow you to trace your arrows path. It could have been more subtle though.

    Loot glint : Like someone mentioned before, It just helps to identify valuable items easier. Im on the fence with this one.

    Lockpicking : The lockpicking in TDS is definitely superior. It required some skill and interaction. The better you get, the faster you can lockpick. In the previous game it just required you to pick a pick (lol) and hold down a mouse button, maybe change picks, repeat. Not very exciting.

    Only downsides I can think of to TDS :

    1) Console limitations : Cant swim, smaller levels

    2) Bad ragdolls and animations

    3) Movement felt a bit clumsy/jerky

    4) City and free roaming sections could have been sooo much better and have so much potential

  4. #79
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortis View Post
    1) Console limitations : Cant swim, smaller levels
    Console was one of several design mistakes that made TDS a lesser game than the first two for me.

  5. #80
    jtr7
    Guest
    A sizable review from back in the day, by "steerpike" writing for fourfatchicks.com:

    http://fourfatchicks.com/Reviews/Thief_3/Thief_3.shtml

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by clearing View Post
    Console was one of several design mistakes that made TDS a lesser game than the first two for me.
    I agree with the console part but I don't think TDS is a lesser game.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by sheared View Post
    My copy has not arrived yet, so I can't comment on many of the things you've listed, but it doesn't seem out of the relm of possibility to assume that if you throw a flashbomb, you'd know to shut your eyes briefly or to squint a bit. They may have not modeled it in a way that reflects that in the game, but I find that a plausible explanation.
    another reason why garret wouldn't have been blinded by his own flash bombs might be because of his mechanical eye.

  8. #83
    jtr7
    Guest
    Randy Smith said he blinks, though it would be more like a quick slamming shut of eyelids.

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebite View Post
    I agree with the console part but I don't think TDS is a lesser game.
    i agree, it wasn't a lesser game even though you always had to wait for it to load.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    So you contend that the loot beacons, arrow trails, inability to be blinded by your own flashbombs, lethality of water, and blindness-healing powers of the blackjack are more realistic?

    i found the loot beacons helpful because a lot of the loot items looked alike and were alike. and the blindness-healing powers were also in TMA and might have been in TDP however i couldn't tell because there were more monsters than people. arrow trails were only in the training mission if i remember right. and the inability to be blinded by your own flash bombs is what got me to start using them. however the graphics were more realistic and the way people that were unconscious didn't go straight through the wall was more realistic.

  11. #86
    jtr7
    Guest
    i found the loot beacons helpful because a lot of the loot items looked alike and were alike.
    See, that's not good at all. Loot that looks like loot is the solution, not a cheat of standing in a room and waiting for sparkle to guide you.

    and the blindness-healing powers were also in TMA and might have been in TDP however i couldn't tell because there were more monsters than people.
    Nope. TDS-only. TDS tried to fix, in a poor manner, the overpowered ability of the player in the older games to flashbomb an AI (or multiple AIs) and blackjack them successfully, no matter the alertness level, when the intnet of the flashbombs was to help the player flee, not overtake the enemy. TMA kind of accepted the problem and had it in a briefing, where Garrett gets ambushed, drops a flashbomb, knocks one City Watchman out, and flees. In TDS, they wanted the flashbombs to work only as an aid to escape, or as a weapon against undead. Oddly, with an abundance of flashbombs in TDS, they made it so only one flashbomb would kill undead, while in the older titles, where resources were scarce, it always took two.

    arrow trails were only in the training mission if i remember right.
    Zylonbane's talking about how shooting an arrow makes them leave a blue trail in the air as they fly, not the floating blue arrows handholding the player in the first mission.

    the inability to be blinded by your own flash bombs is what got me to start using them.
    This is only a real problem when not using a mouse. Otherwise it's not a big deal at all.

    the graphics were more realistic and the way people that were unconscious didn't go straight through the wall was more realistic.
    Higher-polys, higher-res textures, and better collision detection don't make up for the ragdoll, broken fall animations, and unrealistic hand-botched stiffened and grossly exaggerated AI animations, in a game that should've been able to fix the limitations of the previous titles, not doubled the size of the list of limitations. TDS got some things right, but it got too much and more wrong and for reasons that didn't make sense then or now. I hate the Unreal particle effects, and wonder why they still haven't been fixed in ten years.
    Last edited by jtr7; 23rd Jun 2011 at 21:28.

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    See, that's not good at all. Loot that looks like loot is the solution, not a cheat of standing in a room and waiting for sparkle to guide you.



    Nope. TDS-only. TDS tried to fix, in a poor manner, the overpowered ability of the player in the older games to flashbomb an AI (or multiple AIs) and blackjack them successfully, no matter the alertness level, when the intnet of the flashbombs was to help the player flee, not overtake the enemy. TMA kind of accepted the problem and had it in a briefing, where Garrett gets ambushed, drops a flashbomb, knocks one City Watchman out, and flees. In TDS, they wanted the flashbombs to work only as an aid to escape, or as a weapon against undead. Oddly, with an abundance of flashbombs in TDS, they made it so only one flashbomb would kill undead, while in the older titles, where resources were scarce, it always took two.



    Zylonbane's talking about how shooting an arrow makes them leave a blue trail in the air as they fly, not the floating blue arrows handholding the player in the first mission.



    This is only a real problem when not using a mouse. Otherwise it's not a big deal at all.



    Higher-polys, higher-res textures, and better collision detection don't make up for the ragdoll, broken fall animations, and unrealistic hand-botched stiffened and grossly exaggerated AI animations, in a game that should've been able to fix the limitations of the previous titles, not doubled the size of the list of limitations. TDS got some things right, but it got too much and more wrong and for reasons that didn't make sense then or now. I hate the Unreal particle effects, and wonder why they still haven't been fixed in ten years.
    what i was saying is i still prefer TDS to TMA and TDP.

  13. #88
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post


    what i was saying is i still prefer TDS to TMA and TDP.
    You are allowed. But you obviously prefer Eye candy and being led by the hand than playing and using your own mind to find, fix, or solve.

    But then opinions are like anal sphincters everybody has one.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    You are allowed. But you obviously prefer Eye candy and being led by the hand than playing and using your own mind to find, fix, or solve.

    But then opinions are like anal sphincters everybody has one.
    i do not prefer to be led by the hand and i do to use my own mind to solve, fix and find. that was when i started playing that i needed those to help me to find loot and also before i learned other ways to find the loot or secrets or get away from gaurds. now i'm a whole lot better at thief.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    unless i missed something i seem to be the only person other than keeper jonas who has been standing up for TDS.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: WearyTaffer
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    But then opinions are like anal sphincters everybody has one.
    Now that's an intelligent response!

  17. #92
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post
    i do not prefer to be led by the hand and i do to use my own mind to solve, fix and find. that was when i started playing that i needed those to help me to find loot and also before i learned other ways to find the loot or secrets or get away from gaurds. now i'm a whole lot better at thief.
    There seems to be a slight conflict here. You have become skilled, you say. You say you like to use your own mind and skills, yet Blue arrow trails, highly flashing loot (easier to find), and dumbed down controls, confined areas where your imagination can't change the play, are being defended as 'better' than the original where real skill, developed by the player, was the only way to improve and cleanly finish the game(s).

    And Yes. You seem to be the only defender TDS has. It is a good game, as a game. It is a BAD thief sequel.

  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    There seems to be a slight conflict here. You have become skilled, you say. You say you like to use your own mind and skills, yet Blue arrow trails, highly flashing loot (easier to find), and dumbed down controls, confined areas where your imagination can't change the play, are being defended as 'better' than the original where real skill, developed by the player, was the only way to improve and cleanly finish the game(s).

    And Yes. You seem to be the only defender TDS has. It is a good game, as a game. It is a BAD thief sequel.
    i never said anything about the arrow trails and i also said that i no longer use the loot gleams. in my last post i was talking about TDS. now it is true that hiding from guards and finding secrets didn't have much to do with what i was talking about. however i meant that i learned to tell the difference between valuable and invaluable items.
    Last edited by zachary1975; 24th Jun 2011 at 18:29.

  19. #94
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    You make less sense every time you post. What about the sorry attempt that TDS is makes you like it better.

    The only major change, other than the stupid "body mechanics" was the graphics (eye-candy). The development of Garrett as the last keeper and the invention of Gamall as the evil protagonist is a nice twist, but overall the story line sucks.

    The play is rough, the maps confining, the portal loading a pain in the arse..... except for The Cradle, the missions are easy, simplified to a great degree and boring compared to most in TMA, or TDP.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    You make less sense every time you post. What about the sorry attempt that TDS is makes you like it better.

    The only major change, other than the stupid "body mechanics" was the graphics (eye-candy). The development of Garrett as the last keeper and the invention of Gamall as the evil protagonist is a nice twist, but overall the story line sucks.

    The play is rough, the maps confining, the portal loading a pain in the arse..... except for The Cradle, the missions are easy, simplified to a great degree and boring compared to most in TMA, or TDP.
    now there i agree with you.
    i'm talking about the third paragraph.

  21. #96
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post
    now there i agree with you.
    i'm talking about the third paragraph.

    You still have not said in detail WHY you like it. That is and was the question whether you agree in part or not.

    On the other hand if it is that bad (para three) What makes it better in your opinion?

    You say you defend it, like it better than the previous issues, agree that it has major faults, yet have not defined why you like it better....

    I'm waiting.

    I can detail why I find it a poor THIEF game. To wit: They attempted to expand the interest by dumbing it down and porting it. The simple introduction of TDP was expanded to a I'll hold your hand and make sure you get through the intro with no need to actually learn your skills. They made the loot and other objectives extremely easy (secret switches and loot etc.) Were made the size of table tops so the player need not LOOK to find them or so enhanced with Bloom as to make them impossible to miss. The need to develop a skill in sneaking or in the use of the bow were discarded. The player could stumble around like a horse galloping through and make enough noise that only a stone statue would hear. The streaking arrow tracks showed you how far under or over you shot and make it un-necessary for the player to actually develop an eye. The "be invisible" trick of backing to a wall and hitting a button reduced the discovery threat to the player of no meaning. Forget hiding in shadows. Go into an area with light as bright as day, back up to a wall, hit a button and you are invisible to a guard six inches from you.

    I could go on but as a THIEF sequel TDS subverted every thing that initially made THIEF THIEF.

    TDS is not a bad game. But it is an exceptionally bad THIEF.
    Last edited by theBlackman; 25th Jun 2011 at 15:38. Reason: Spelling

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    The "be invisible" trick of backing to a wall and hitting a button reduced the discovery threat to the player of no meaning.
    To be fair, I asked the developers about that. It was a bug and not a design choice. Backing into a wall was to be no more helpful than crouching, but there was a mistake in the code calculation. The bug wasn't discovered until it was too late for them to fix it, and since nobody complained about it before the patch was issued...it didn't get fixed then either. They told me how it could be fixed in the editor, and so it is fixed in my little mod, The Minimalist Project.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    There are a few funny quirks like that. I don't know if it was just me but I noticed guards don't look up until they reach a certain alertness level. Or something like that.
    I stood on top of a post in the docks for ages, guards and people walking right by me only noticing my feet. They made all sorts of "hmmm"s and "Out of the corner of my eye..."s but none of them thought to look up and see what the feet were attached to. It was hilarious.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: Sweden
    TDS is certainly not a bad game, but could have benefited tremendously from a couple of more weeks of bugfixing.

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    There are a few funny quirks like that. I don't know if it was just me but I noticed guards don't look up until they reach a certain alertness level. Or something like that.
    I stood on top of a post in the docks for ages, guards and people walking right by me only noticing my feet. They made all sorts of "hmmm"s and "Out of the corner of my eye..."s but none of them thought to look up and see what the feet were attached to. It was hilarious.
    something like that happened to me, although the gaurd was drunk i don't think that fact had anything to do with it, i tried going behind him and i crept along the wall and he didn't even notice me and he was right next to a light. however i went in front of him and he attacked me.

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