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Thread: Standing Up for Thief: Deadly Shadows

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: England
    Randomly, did the "death animation does not play if loading a save or entering a new zone" fix ever get released?
    I can only find threads talking about it, and even that was hard enough.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    You still have not said in detail WHY you like it. That is and was the question whether you agree in part or not.

    On the other hand if it is that bad (para three) What makes it better in your opinion?

    You say you defend it, like it better than the previous issues, agree that it has major faults, yet have not defined why you like it better....

    I'm waiting.

    I can detail why I find it a poor THIEF game. To wit: They attempted to expand the interest by dumbing it down and porting it. The simple introduction of TDP was expanded to a I'll hold your hand and make sure you get through the intro with no need to actually learn your skills. They made the loot and other objectives extremely easy (secret switches and loot etc.) Were made the size of table tops so the player need not LOOK to find them or so enhanced with Bloom as to make them impossible to miss. The need to develop a skill in sneaking or in the use of the bow were discarded. The player could stumble around like a horse galloping through and make enough noise that only a stone statue would hear. The streaking arrow tracks showed you how far under or over you shot and make it un-necessary for the player to actually develop an eye. The "be invisible" trick of backing to a wall and hitting a button reduced the discovery threat to the player of no meaning. Forget hiding in shadows. Go into an area with light as bright as day, back up to a wall, hit a button and you are invisible to a guard six inches from you.

    I could go on but as a THIEF sequel TDS subverted every thing that initially made THIEF THIEF.

    TDS is not a bad game. But it is an exceptionally bad THIEF.
    i like TDS because; one, the graphics are better or at least in my opinion. two, it's easier to ghost although i know that alot of you dislike TDS because of that. three, i don't have to look at a loot list to know when i have obtained all the loot. four, people don't go straight through the wall after they've been knocked out. five, the way that gas and fire arrows don't go up after getting released. six, because i like all the originals and most fan missions in general.

    there, are you satisfied?
    Last edited by zachary1975; 26th Jun 2011 at 01:12.

  3. #103
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post
    i like TDS because; one, the graphics are better or at least in my opinion. two, it's easier to ghost although i know that alot of you dislike TDS because of that. three, i don't have to look at a loot list to know when i have obtained all the loot. four, people don't go straight through the wall after they've been knocked out. five, the way that gas and fire arrows don't go up after getting released. six, because i like all the originals and most fan missions in general.

    there, are you satisfied.
    Graphics.
    It's Easy.
    You don't have to make any effort to learn to play the game. It is all given to you on a platter.
    Minor engine fault.
    Arrows (that you don't understand the mechanics of) don't go Up?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah
    You just proved what I was saying all along.
    You want INSTANT satisfaction without working for it.
    You can't Play the game. It's too hard.
    You don't understand THIEF or the world of Garrett.

    If it's 'Original" you like it? The "original" games/missions even with the not so good graphics of the time are far superior to TDS.

    If, and I hope not, you are over eighteen years old age and out in the world on your own, humanity is in deep shit.
    Last edited by theBlackman; 25th Jun 2011 at 23:37.

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    Graphics.
    It's Easy.
    You don't have to make any effort to learn to play the game. It is all given to you on a platter.
    Minor engine fault.
    Arrows (that you don't understand the mechanics of) don't go Up?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Yeah
    You just proved what I was saying all along.
    You want INSTANT satisfaction without working for it.
    You can't Play the game. It's too hard.
    You don't understand THIEF or the world of Garrett.

    If it's 'Original" you like it? The "original" games/missions even with the not so good graphics of the time are far superior to TDS.

    If, and I hope not, you are over eighteen years old age and out in the world on your own, humanity is in deep shit.
    try playing mission x on impossible or maybe finding out that i play all missions on expert difficulty might slightly change your opinion of me. i never noticed anything that bad about the graphics.

  5. #105
    FW:FW:FW: SO TRUE!!!
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: Seaside, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post
    i never noticed anything that bad about the graphics.
    Quote Originally Posted by zachary1975 View Post
    i like TDS because; one, the graphics are better or at least in my opinion.
    You continue to prove that your memory is faulty. You are ignorant enough to not see that you can be quoted from every post you make.

    If your arguments (and I am generous in calling your feeble comebacks arguments) were more than a failing defense of your own contradictions I might have a different opinion of you, but you just keep going around in circles.

    You say "this" then turn around and deny it or change your stance to say, "no it's that" not "This"


    As for EXPERT, you are ten or more years behind those who have been playing that way and even invented more difficult ways to play. Your posts label you more of a dilettante than a pro, and impress more as those of a person who has not reached their teenage years.

    Be as mad as you like. It would help more if you were rational.

  6. #106
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2009
    Location: Here, where do you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by theBlackman View Post
    You continue to prove that your memory is faulty. You are ignorant enough to not see that you can be quoted from every post you make.

    If your arguments (and I am generous in calling your feeble comebacks arguments) were more than a failing defense of your own contradictions I might have a different opinion of you, but you just keep going around in circles.

    You say "this" then turn around and deny it or change your stance to say, "no it's that" not "This"


    As for EXPERT, you are ten or more years behind those who have been playing that way and even invented more difficult ways to play. Your posts label you more of a dilettante than a pro, and impress more as those of a person who has not reached their teenage years.

    Be as mad as you like. It would help more if you were rational.
    not every post, just check out the new thief tech or whatever it's called. i have to reached my teenage years.
    Last edited by zachary1975; 26th Jun 2011 at 20:11.

  7. #107
    Taking a break
    Registered: Dec 2002
    This thread is a true stand up

    spoiler:
    Stand up comedy that is

  8. #108
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Poland
    I'd just like to say that Deadly Shadows is both a good game and a good Thief game. Sure, it has its flaws. But none of these flaws justify the amount of vitriol spewed at it. Said vitriol is the main reason I don't really visit here anymore.

  9. #109
    jtr7
    Guest
    It's more about the defenders boggling minds than the software itself, as well as the very real frustrated efforts to have fun while the app is running. All the fans of TDS who rank it highest are not half as endeared to the game, for reasons unknown, as the fans of TDP and/or TMA. The utter lack of inspiration and fandom and fan-projects speaks volumes about how meaningful it is as a Thief game, with 2D drawings/paintings as the most common fan tribute. I would very much like to see more love for the game as a whole from even the greatest fans of it. There's little drive to show the game off to the world through the eyes of wonderment and fascination, and the biggest push for T4 are things that aren't Thief-based, but may be found in several other series. The fact that people who aren't big fans have done more fan-like work than the biggest proponents is bizarre. TDS's greatest fans and champions spend more time battling futilely against the frustrations and disappointments piled up in others' memory and experience and personal history they cannot possibly overcome rather than coming together and sharing their joy, and providing insight into how special it is. The biggest TDS fans make it very hard to see the hidden value behind the subjective fun-frustrating elements, and they have no idea how much I myself want to read posts that don't backfire. Thankfully a few taffers have managed to bridge the gap, and I applaud them and stand behind those taffers, but of course, they are quiet posters in general, and uncomfortably few in number, so their refreshing and welcome thoughts are rare, though not utterly absent.
    Last edited by jtr7; 26th Jun 2011 at 07:49.

  10. #110
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2009
    Location: Turkey
    First things first: English is not my native language,but I'll try my best..

    From time to time;I find myself visiting this topic back,get irritated and then leave it as it is without posting(since some folks here can't stand topic resurrection it seems)but I think I won't be able to pull myself back anymore..

    First of all,I've been a hardcore pc gamer since the beginning of 90' s and played a lot of classics;finished them so I wouldn't care about insults like "just another newbie/clueless about the games" one bit..

    It was about 5 or 6 years ago when I discovered Thief : Deadly Shadows..played it,finished it numerous times,then decided to search for the older ones..I looked up on youtube LP's to hold an opinion before actually buying them and........how fortune for me that I did it..the only "decent" aspects of those two games were their story and cutscenes..nothing more..Hell,I won't even try to explain TDS's superiorities..watching those TDP and TMA playthroughs was like watching Halflife or something..I've never been a supporter of graphic quality at all but they are just crap......and it's not only graphics..gameplay design is also very bad..a robot running around,knocking everyone out and running and running v.s...and people here bitching about loot glint and arrow trails??is this serious??these people don't have a clue what they are talking about and I'm sure they consider themselves as elite gamers...pffff....the world is indeed going into a shithole and new generation is totally corrupted no doubt about it but sometimes my own generation also surprises me and I think it's really sad..you know there was a game called Clock Tower..even that game had better atmosphere/ambience despite having even worse visual quality..so explanations like "capabilities were limited at those times" can't be an excuse..those who played it would know what I'm talking about..anyway there is much more to say actually but I won't bother..

    If the topic owner is still around and reading this: I'm with you my friend and I absolutely think TDS is the only decent game in this series(which is sad)..even Shalebridge Cradle alone can easily beat the whole TDP+TMA by miles...feeling,sounds,music,name it..if only the other two had similar stuff like that and also city-play plus some goddamn realistic gameplay features(yes..bodyawareness,headbob while running instead of being a robot for example),I would've surely loved them since they have better story in my opinion..especially TDP..watching the cutscenes were like watching a movie..damn..what a pity...
    Last edited by Seckino; 22nd Sep 2012 at 23:07.

  11. #111
    Sneaky Upgrader
    Registered: May 2007
    You'd better take cover now...
    Widescreen and tweaks patches: The Sneaky Upgrade for Thief 3, the Visible Upgrade for Deus Ex 2

  12. #112
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2009
    Location: Damp cavern
    Better yet, someone call a doctor. This guy is really ill.

  13. #113
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2006
    Location: Moscow, Russia
    Way to go, judging the game without even playing it. Aesthetics may be a matter of personal preference, but you got the simple facts wrong: There is a physical body model in T1-T2, there is headbobbing, and there is some inertia while moving. The only difference is that in TDS the body needs to accommodate to the set of fixed animations before actually moving according to the input as opposed to the instant reaction in T1-T2. And of course, one can run around in TDS, killing everyone with the dagger as it's overpowered more than the blackjack in T1-T2.

  14. #114
    jtr7
    Guest
    Posts like those do nothing to improve disappointed and frustrated feelings over TDS, and only emphasize fan division. Thief 4, I'm afraid, will just be gasoline on the fire, and all the fundamental arguments are highly predictable, and will be regurgitated over and over for decades, creating further division.

  15. #115
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    Yeah, and constant grumbling about TDS is the way to go? I think it's actually nice to see read positive thoughts about TDS for a change, even if I don't agree with Seckino's opinion of T1 and T2 at all.

  16. #116
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2009
    Location: Turkey
    I'm surprised...I was expecting a blind raging,full barrage of angry shots or something but these replies are just the opposite..calm and civilized..
    Forgive me but I'm so used to get bashed on internet..and I'm sure I'm not alone on this matter..
    Anyway I really appreciate these collected comments and I mean it..
    One thing that I don't get is why my opinions seem so absurd to some of you..I have a friend who thinks Al Pacino is a crap actor..an actor amongst all time "classics" is being misjudged here..so what should I do,treat him like a wierdo??
    What I am trying to say is;most of you guys in this forum seem so obsessed with the first two games..they can't stand a single negative view about them..and I think it's because most of them played these games in their "childhood".....reminiscences..being more inclined to admiration,more easily and deeply scared maybe(in a good way)..
    The problem is,I didn't played these two in my those "beautiful" times..and I know if I did,I would have been one of you probably..I mean if someone said to me that Silent Hill sucks for instance,I would have busted open a can of whoopass real bad
    In any case,I still stand up for my thoughts and I don't think these predecessors would satisfy me if I played them..I'd love to,but I just can't...it's about aging matter like I told and I hope you guys would understand it..after all,most of us here has gone down the same road and grew up playing some unforgettable games but can't get back to them in the end..everything is evolving(in a bad way)whether we like or not..

  17. #117
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2009
    Location: South Dakota, USA
    If you feel that there is nothing else that redeems Thief 1/2 compared to Thief 3, you must at least admit that the larger, fully-contained levels were a good thing.

  18. #118
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    This thread is a bit like visiting Verdun on a family vacation, and realising some people are still shooting at each other in the trenches.

    Whatever floats their boats, of course.

  19. #119
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2001
    Location: the Sheeple Pen
    I guess that the loading zones are something that you don't really pay much attention to when you're watching playthrough videos, you only notice them when you're playing the game yourself.

    Seckino, if you really liked TDS that much, I think you should give T1 or T2 a try too! If you can ignore the fact that they don't look that great anymore, there's a pretty fascinating game hidden underneath it, and you're almost guaranteed to find it fun. There aren't any other games like Thief (or at least I've never played any!) so they're quite unique in a way. They're pretty cheap nowadays too so you won't lose much even if you don't like them.

    You make a good point about the nostalgia, I'm sure that it plays a big role in why many of us prefer the older Thief games. I joined TTLG because I loved Thief 1 and wanted to create missions for it, so it'll always have a special place in my heart, but I like all the games in the series just about equally much. My favourite game of all time is Ultima VII, a game that was released more than 20 years ago. If I played that game for the first time now, I really doubt that it would become my biggest favourite and it might be difficult to get into it because of some of its flaws... but because I played the game all those years ago and I associate it with some happy memories, I can ignore those flaws and just enjoy the game as it is. Does that even make any sense?

  20. #120
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2009
    Location: Turkey
    scarykitties ;

    Yes you're right and I admit it
    Actually I played a T3 FM called "The Bridge" sometime ago and it had that large,complex areas without loading zones like you mentioned..I think it was inspired from TMA levels so I got your point..

    Tomi ;

    Of course it makes sense,totally..
    Since our opinions seem exactly the same,I can't add anything much to your words in that subject..so all I gotta say is thank you for your concern and suggestions..I'll maybe consider playing them again..tough I'm curious about something; are T1&T2 suitable for slow playing?like moving on your toes all the time just like in TDS? because I've watched several different players to make sure "running into the guards and BJing them in the face" is not the only way of playing them but every guy I watched was kinda playing like that(they were experienced BTW)..it seemed to me that enemies don't alert at all unless you bump into them,which is a little stupid(sorry)..and even if they draw their weapons,they can still be knocked out with one hit..please correct me if I'm wrong on these..
    You said you've never played anything like Thief before..if FPS and medieval concept isn't a must for you;then I would surely recommend Hitman series but I doubt you missed that one..I mean they are legends amongst stealth-action games and I suppose you and most of the guys here already played them..
    Anyway thanks again mate..
    Last edited by Seckino; 23rd Sep 2012 at 18:53.

  21. #121
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Seckino View Post
    are T1&T2 suitable for slow playing?like moving on your toes all the time just like in TDS? because I've watched several different players to make sure "running into the guards and BJing them in the face" is not the only way of playing them but every guy I watched was kinda playing like that(they were experienced BTW)..it seemed to me that enemies don't alert at all unless you bump into them,which is a little stupid(sorry)..and even if they draw their weapons,they can still be knocked out with one hit..please correct me if I'm wrong on these..
    Depends on the difficulty, on Normal you can just turn autorun on and hold forward key 90% of the time, BJing people as they appear in the way... heh. Just a matter of practice. On Expert, though, generally raising the alert level to the point of the guard getting suspicious enough to start searching makes knocking him out very hard, if not impossible.
    Also Expert has "don't kill ANYONE" requirement for pretty much every mission.

    Still, walking on most surfaces doesn't alert relaxed enemies, even when you're quite close - I don't like that... but it's kinda compensated by metal or tiled floor, which makes big noise even when you're creeping as slow as possible.

    Btw even if one despises T1/T2, they're worth a try for the fan generated content alone. The fan mission archives are huge, and quality of some is simply amazing, given the sometimes very silly limitations of the engine.

  22. #122
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Why on earth would anyone think they came to any valid judgement on a game by watching bad Let's Plays filled with exploits and speed-run tricks?
    That's just silly. Suggests someone has no interest in the immersive qualities of the game too, which is one if its defining features.
    If you're only interested in assessing its 'stealth-action' mechanics then I would suggest sticking with Splinter Cell and the like.

  23. #123
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2009
    Location: South Dakota, USA
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
    If you're only interested in assessing its 'stealth-action' mechanics then I would suggest sticking with Splinter Cell and the like.
    I think this statement is the equivalent of a white glove slap to the cheek.

  24. #124
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Procrastination, Australia
    Hah. Nah, a tad bristly perhaps but better to keep the thread chilled really.
    It might sound precious, and it probably is a bit, but all those things are about the worst way to assess Thief. They discovered that marketing it back in the day: it's the most terrible game to watch someone else play, or even play for a short burst. This made it hell at industry demos and trade shows. Adding in players who know every exploit is that times ten.
    It remains true that Deadly Shadows, while a decent enough game, has only one level that's a proper Thief level like you'd find in the first two. It'll always fall short of the others. The only way to really grasp this is to experience it, unfortunately. They might be looking their age and that's a bit of a hurdle but set up your brightness and so on right and they'll still work.

  25. #125
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2009
    Location: Turkey
    I think I have to make something clear now;
    My apologies...I've never wanted to bump this thread to mean: Hey guys,come here and convince me about those games so I can rush into them..come here and pay attention to my desires,help me so I can get some fun..no no no my intensions were never about pleasing my megalomaniac feelings..I'm really sorry if I accidently represented myself in such a way..

    I just wanted to get some decent info about T1&T2 after seeing some promising comments about them that's all..believe it or not;I've never been a fan of splinter cell games and I don't play stealth games just because of the action values in them..the story,atmosphere,horror elements(especially in Thief) have always been the most important features for me..
    My favorite game of all time is "S.T.A.L.K.E.R - Shadow of Chernobyl" for instance..it's not a stealth play based game(maybe a little but not like Thief of course)but it's my favorite for some other unique aspects which no other game on this earth can provide IMO..so you see,this arguement is not just about stealth or action..I'm honest on this matter..

    I agree that "Let's Play" videos really damaged some values in the industry but as I told before;it's a part of this f..... up evolution and we're somehow forced to go along with it..maybe we need to form a real Pagan faction to stop these hammerheads and their goddamn technology what do ya say

    Hey cast;

    I'll consider the infos you gave and look into it again tonight..thanks..
    Last edited by Seckino; 24th Sep 2012 at 19:27.

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