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Thread: The Dark Mod

  1. #1826
    I had no idea of the depth of feeling about one line on an optional page:



    At the moment the 'score' means 'Alerts:' but subtracted from 10. It could just as easily say 'Alerts: 8' meaning I had 8 distant mutters (which I never heard actually) "thought I heard something..." As said earlier I think it's too severe at the moment as many ghosters don't even count these lowest level alerts (which is the reason why I'm promoting its review at some future release and gathering opinions.) Or if it were subtracted from 100 then I would have got 92%.

    So, *if* it remains purely an alert stat (since kills, KOs etc. are listed separately) then the subheader could be renamed 'Alerts:' and as demagogue suggested a zero would indicate no alerts and the player can take that as a raw stat or take it as a personal aim. I don't know if it is possible to split the alert stats into levels (nor do I know off-hand how many levels of alert there actually are in Dark Mod):

    Alerts: High: 0 Medium: 0 Low: 8

  2. #1827
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinqueecclesiensis HU
    An Alerts stat would make sense if it was broken down into categories - there are different degrees of ghosting success, e.g. regular ghost allows first level alerts ("thought I heard something"), while stricter modes do not. Also, an objective measure would be better than one that's based on some arbitrary form of weighting. Just my opinion, of course, and certainly not game-breaking if it is done otherwise. After all, TDP/TMA had no score like this.

  3. #1828
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    I think there are many ways to calculate the "thiefness" of the player - thus all these additional evaluators should probably be optional and plugin based.
    I could imagine ghosting evaluator for example which would compare the state of the doors to the one at the start of the mission, count the number of alerts, etc. One could have an evaluator for all additional rule sets, in fact.

  4. #1829
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Location: conduction band
    Quote Originally Posted by Volca View Post
    I think there are many ways to calculate the "thiefness" of the player
    Indeed there are. There are AI alerts, there are moveables out of place, doors opened, loot collected, arrows used, AI harmed, sounds emitted, torches doused. You can even name this differently and compile "Stealthiness", "Ghostness", "Thiefness", "Whateverness".

    As this (theoretical) discussion showed, everybody has a different opinion of what "stealthy" is, as everybody has a different preferred playstyle. Obviously something people can write lengthy posts about because it's absolutely important and will seriously affect gameplay.

    For this first draft, we chose AI Alerts and summed them up in a weighted manner (serious alerts count more negatively than mutters).

    As somebody else mentioned, certain mission objectives will cause such "scores" or "stats" (which are equivalent in the end) to drop even for ghosters, so we already thought about opening this to mappers, so that they can define: "In this mission, don't count the death of AI "Joe" towards the ghost score, as it's a mandatory objective to kill him.").

    Needs more thought and this will make it into some future update, I reckon.
    Last edited by codereader; 12th Oct 2009 at 04:14.

  5. #1830
    So, the stealth score at the moment is calculated only from the number of "busts"? That's kinda okay (I thought it took everything, like KOs, etc, into account, like in the later Splinter Cell games), but it would still be better just to give a number of alerts IMO, like Fidcal said.

    So, *if* it remains purely an alert stat (since kills, KOs etc. are listed separately) then the subheader could be renamed 'Alerts:' and as demagogue suggested a zero would indicate no alerts and the player can take that as a raw stat or take it as a personal aim. I don't know if it is possible to split the alert stats into levels (nor do I know off-hand how many levels of alert there actually are in Dark Mod):

    Alerts: High: 0 Medium: 0 Low: 8
    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Wow, I guess there's not a lot going on in ThiefGen. I've never seen something so meaningless blown so far out of proportion.
    It's a compliment - Dark Mod looks so good in every aspect that people have to find some bullshit like this to argue about.

  6. #1831
    jtr7
    Guest
    There are places in the OMs where player action can ramp up the alertness of an AI or two in another area without the player knowing it's occurred until eventually reaching it, finding AIs off their patrols or aware of the player from the slightest noise.




    And the arguing has nothing to do with The Dark Mod or ThiefGen. It's about clashing philosophies regarding people and society--including those who seek irrational excuses to pounce on their "nemesis."
    Last edited by jtr7; 12th Oct 2009 at 04:44.

  7. #1832
    Member
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Thiefier Than Thou
    You always use the sly smiley like you know what it means when you clearly don't.

    And you're not cool or substantial enough to have a nemesis.

  8. #1833
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Limbo of the Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by Chade View Post
    I'd like to distinguish between the information displayed in a statistic, and the way in which that statistic is displayed to the user. It doesn't have to bounce up and down in the middle of the monitor screen while the sound of cheering fills the room. Are you really going to find some statistic discretely displayed on some menu screen an immersion killer?
    Sorry mate, I didn't mean to single you out as if you were calling for that level of 'dumbed down' exploration feedback, and I don't mean to imply that this is what the Dark Mod will be doing, I was just thinking out loud regarding games in general.

    The basic point (which I didn't clearly illustrate) is that games which tell you that there's nothing left to explore remove the mystery that there could be more to the game world than you actually get to experience (which again I concede could work for some games). Just to be clear, I don't have any concerns about the stats display for the Dark Mod, which is looking pretty sweet I have to say .

  9. #1834
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    And the arguing has nothing to do with The Dark Mod or ThiefGen. It's about clashing philosophies regarding people and society
    Fine, but this is a thread about The Dark Mod, and very clearly labeled so.

  10. #1835
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Tannar Appreciation Society HQ
    As a ghoster - I think a breakdown of low/medium/serious alerts would be helpful. Are these statistics only available on mission end or can they be accessed at any point during the mission? The latter would be preferable.

  11. #1836
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    And the arguing has nothing to do with The Dark Mod or ThiefGen.
    Then why the hell is it cluttering up our TDM thread? If people want to debate philosophies, then please start a new thread.

  12. #1837
    Quote Originally Posted by Dussander View Post
    As a ghoster - I think a breakdown of low/medium/serious alerts would be helpful. Are these statistics only available on mission end or can they be accessed at any point during the mission? The latter would be preferable.
    Not during but only after you complete the FM.

  13. #1838
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2009
    Location: Florida
    maximum(0, (90 || 100 || 110) - (10 * (lights doused / lights dousable)) - (50 * (minimum(1, human kills / 5))) - (25 * (human knockouts / total knockoutable humans)) - (20 * (minimum(1, high alerts / 5))) - (10 * (minimum(1, medium alerts / 5))) - (5 * (minimum(1, low alerts / 10))) - (25 * (minimum(1, bodies discovered / 5))) - (5 * (damage taken / player starting health)))

    Start with Normal (90), Hard (100), Expert (110).

    Subtract:
    10 pts for all lights doused.
    50 pts for 5+ humans killed.
    25 pts for all humans knocked out.
    20 pts for 5+ high alerts.
    10 pts for 5+ medium alerts.
    5 pts for 10+ low alerts.
    25 pts for 5+ bodies discovered.
    5 pts for damage taken greater or equal to starting health.

    For total possible deductions of 150 points from the starting score.

    No consideration of nonhumans. Alert levels encompass disturbances like out of place loot, doors, crates, noises, etc.

    Edit: Flaw: It would be cheaper to kill everyone past 5 than to kill 5 and then knock everyone else out.
    Fix: -25 * (human knockouts / (total knockoutable humans - human kills))
    Last edited by jaxa; 12th Oct 2009 at 13:45.

  14. #1839
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2005
    Location: UK
    There's some jen-yoo-wine lunacy going on over the last couple of pages, I'm so glad you're all just words on the internet and not real people otherwsie I'd be fucking scared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fidcal View Post
    Alerts: High: 0 Medium: 0 Low: 8
    That ^ and demagogue's refreshingly sane suggestions, please. Number of alerts of whatever different states there are, with zero being "perfect" and no upper limit. Simple is best. If you want stats for moved items and such, better to keep them separate than jumble several things into some hidden formula, let players assess/ignore what they want. I'm not a compulsive ghoster but I try it every now and then; furthermore, I like to set goals for myself to suit the mission and my mood (eg, allowing KOs, perhaps a limited number, but no alerts). Even if you never play that way, you only need to read a single ghost report to see why a large number of players will really, really welcome these stats. That IMO is reason enough to include them.

    Now I'm going to contradict myself and complicate things slightly: you might want to offer some way of separating out alerts of human AI and other AI (beasts, undead, etc). Even when I'm playing quite strictly, I tend not to give a shit if a spider sees me (he's hardly gonna give my description to the cops, is he?). On the stats page, is it possible to make a row of stats change by clicking on it? Then you could cycle through sets of alert stats by clicking on that line: Total, human, beast, undead, machine, etc.

  15. #1840
    How long has the October 6 update been on the site for??? I have only noticed it this morning...

  16. #1841
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2003
    Location: Rome, Italy

    Hey guys, to return on the topic: do you have some new screenshot-gift from the dev-Beta-Alpha?

    As said, remember that we are TDM addicted
    Last edited by mazzortock; 12th Oct 2009 at 16:38.

  17. #1842
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    How long has the October 6 update been on the site for??? I have only noticed it this morning...
    Oops, that was a typo. The update went up today.

  18. #1843
    This reminds me of a long car ride with children..

    Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet. Are we there yet.

    However the wait will be well worth it.. Finally a real thiefy game that does not give me motion sickness.. (T: DS did not give me motion sickness but it was not a real thiefy game)
    Last edited by Ringer; 13th Oct 2009 at 03:23.

  19. #1844
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Tannar Appreciation Society HQ
    Quote Originally Posted by Fidcal View Post
    Not during but only after you complete the FM.
    That's unfortunate

  20. #1845
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    do you have some new screenshot-gift from the dev-Beta-Alpha?
    How's this? It isn't in the initial release, but is a WIP map by Arcturus.


  21. #1846
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    That looks really great. Is the horse frobbable?

  22. #1847
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Toronto, Canada
    Oops, didn't even notice the horse. That's something for a future update.

  23. #1848
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    Looks really good

  24. #1849
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinqueecclesiensis HU
    Nice. Captures the details and typical construction of 19th century red-brick districts quite well. Clean textures, too.

  25. #1850

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