||Topic: More than just a Human/Beast
| posted February 19, 1999 12:57 AM
As I got about halfway through the game, I started disliking the
missions that didn't have human opponents, such as HC and Bonehoard.
After playing Escape, though, I really like the Humanoid beasts.
They're sometimes smarter than humans, and they're scarier! The
apebeasts are terrifying with their evil little screeches, and the
other guys are original...they really make you think about how to go
about a level. Must say I did like Lost City as well..very good
level design in my opinion. Just starting Bedfellows...hope it's
good...heard both ways on this board.
| posted February 20, 1999 06:31 PM
You know, I had thought about my aggressions agains those apebeasts.
I came to the solution, when I recalled the moment when one ape
could see me, but not attack because I was hidden in a small hole.
He said: "Dann lass mal deine Doetten sehen!" (As you realize, I
have the german version of the game). That sentence is not easy to
translate, because "Doetten" is not a proper german word. But
according to the fact that the apes speak in a sort of a northern
german dialect, I would translate it into "Now let us see your
That is a surprising meaning, if we remember that Garrett is a
male one and therefore has no breast, obviously. Well... I am
a female thief and shurely didnt want to show them apes any parts of
my body. (Except my hand with the blackjack in it, course; or some
Maybe thats why I had those problems with the monkeys the last
time I met them?
[This message has been edited by Lytha (edited February 20,
| posted February 20, 1999 09:08 PM
HAHAAHA now who did the translating for this game?? hmmmmmm hehehe
let us know if any other perverted critters chase you
down...thats kinda funny =]
| posted February 20, 1999 09:59 PM
Lytha, your post totally floored me from laughing so much. Any other
Personally I like the angloamerican monkey boys, i love listening
to them talk just before I blatter them with the blackjack. I think
the preyingmantis or the blue thing rates as scariest guys. They
just look evil enough for me to forget they dont have IQs any higher
than a normal guard.
Have a nice day!
| posted February 20, 1999 10:30 PM
Wow. This has become a quest for me to figure out what it should
have said... unfortunately, nothing in the written text the Germans
sent back seems to match at all. Was this
the growly one or the squeaky one, do you remember?
| posted February 21, 1999 02:09 AM
..and Laura is responsible for translations?.. it just gets funnier
We're laughing with you, boojum
Tea in the Sahara, with you..
| posted February 22, 1999 03:53 AM
nice, nice. gonna have to remember to use that in german
class or something
wondering - were there demos released for the non-English versions
of Thief? Or is there any way that I could choose between the
English and another version? I'd love to hear Thief in French...
| posted February 22, 1999 07:02 PM
It was the one with the deeper voice, not the elder one. (The elder
one says only stuff like him being a cat and me a scared mouse,
hehe.) Both very funny because of their hanseatic dialect.
I ll make a search in the snd.crf-file when I stopped being
online and will post the name of the file afterwards.
| posted February 22, 1999 07:37 PM
Hey, that was a fast search.
The file is named "ab1a3na5.wav" and is extracted into the path
He says really: "Na, lass mal deine Doetten
meaning of that is uncertain, as I explained earlier. Same as the
words "Pisslacke", "Dummbatsch" or "Pillefuesse", is "Doetten" not a
proper german word.
My congratulations to everyone, who did the translation work! It
is funny to listen to all of them, equal if human guard, hammerite
I am only sad that I dont have the original version, because I
cant quote the original sentences. And because I would spent many
whole days with comparing the versions, to find out who of the
Garretts fits the one in my mind. #)
BTW: My lover listened to the certain sentence, looked quite
astonished and understood it like me (maybe that query was not very
representive, but who cares.) #)
| posted February 22, 1999 09:30 PM
I played the file in question, and the English version seems to say,
"Showsie your face, did you?"
Face, tits...I can see the confusion...
| posted February 23, 1999 04:56 PM
I looked in our spreadsheet, and the translators *claim* it says
"Zeigst mir endlich dein Gesicht, wie?"
On the other hand, when I listen to the .wav file, it certainly
sounds a lot more like your sentence than my sentence. I have a
suspicion that the people making the audio recordings may have been
having a joke...
| posted February 23, 1999 09:13 PM
This is brilliant. I haven't met the apes yet, but I played the wav
The translation was done by Eva Hoogh. The name sounds familiar
to me. I'm not sure, but I think she is quite a distinguished
translator. All in all she did a good job, despite some minor flaws
("two centimeters above the floor..").
Translating is one of the
hardest jobs, pretty much like web design. The job has to be
finished in no time, nobody is prepared to pay you adequately, and
in the end everybody thinks they could have done better themselves
(especially with English). Granted, with web design it's usually the
four-year-old daughter who could have done better.
So let's not
I think "Zeigst mir endlich..." were the translators words, just
to give the recording people a basis to work on. If I was to speak a
part like that, I would choose different words as well, according to
my own dialect, so that it sounds more natural. And the audio
recording people did an amazing job.
Now here's where I have to be a spoilsport: I don't think that
it's 'Dötten'. Much as I like Lytha's hypothesis that 'Dötten' is a
corruption of 'Titten', I think what the apeman really says is
Warning: now it gets technical! Feel free to
skip this part.
If it was 'Döppen', we should hear a voiceless
bilabial stop consonant. But we don't. If it was 'Dötten', we should
be able to hear a voiceless apico-alveolar stop, but we don't hear
that either. What we do hear is in fact a glottal stop!. Or, to be
more precise, we hear a glottalized stop consonant. That means that
the quality of the glottal stop is influenced by the consonant it
Now, if you glottalize a 't', the tongue
moves into a position as if you wanted to pronounce this consonant,
but then you produce a stop of airflow with your glottis (and then
release it). But if you wanted to glottalize a 'p' accordingly, your
mouth would have to prepare for the pronunciation (because
'p' is produced with your lips). If you would close your lips and
then produce the glottal stop, your cheeks would puff out, so you
keep your mouth open a little to allow the air to flow out.
same is true for the glottalized 't', but here the released air
flows over the tongue and is thereby influenced by the consonant it
In the case of 'p' the released air also flows over
the tongue, which influences the sound of the glottal stop,
but not towards a 'p', because the tongue is not involved in
the production of 'p'. It is still in the position of the last
Now 'd' is the voiced variant of 't' and
therefore another apico-alveolar stop.
So, to sum things up, the
glottalized 'p' is influenced by the preceeding 'd' and therefore
sounds only marginally different from a glottalized 't'.
I think that 'deine Döppen' is a
corruption of 'dein Kopp' the Low German equivalent of 'dein Kopf'
(your head). Firstly, this is the meaning intended by LGS, and
secondly, it is not just one wrong word, but a wrong word and the
wrong number, which provides the intended effect of a pidgin.
Please feel free to dispute my hypothesis. I'm only trying to
match what I hear with what was intended by the designers.
-Kyloe, language FREAK
PS: redEye, there is a demo version of Thief in German. Check out
www.zdnet.de for the download. I have searched www.zdnet.fr for a
French version, but they only link to an LGS site.
Those who ha' w' Garrett bled
| posted February 23, 1999 10:13 PM
Whew. I'm glad that there's another possibility for that word there.
We really did give them a hard job, between the Trickster-pidgin,
the Hammerite fake-old-English, and Constantine's rituals. I have a
great respect for anyone who can translate things that rhyme into
other things that rhyme.
Also, the French are the best whistlers.
| posted February 24, 1999 07:09 AM
Trickster-pidgin? I was always curious about the original version.
When I went out to buy my copy of Thief, I had to decide between the
square box and the trapezoid original. I took the German version,
because the translation and the dubbing were excellent as far as I
could tell from the demo.
But now I'm thinking about spending
another DM 90 just for the sound.
-Kyloe, English language FREAK
Those who ha' w' Garrett bled
| posted February 24, 1999 10:28 AM
It would have been nice if we could have included all three
languages on the same CD, but there just wasn't room (sound files
The trickster-pidgen is spoken by the ape/rat beasts (the
original "Showsie your face!", "We sees the sneaksie manflesh!" and
stuff like that), by Constantine/Viktoria in the post-Cathedral
cutscene, and in the Tricksterish quotes at the beginnings of
several missions. If the translation comes across as "somewhat
garbled and childish" then it's doing the right thing.
| posted February 24, 1999 12:48 PM
Kyloe: yeah, you're right! You ARE a language freak!
| posted February 24, 1999 01:08 PM
kissing Kyloe must certainly be one amazing experience... the woman
knows her glottal and alpico alveoral stuff man! your boyfriend must
be one lucky bugger! oral sex?? my god i can only imagine... (hey
just pissin around here i dont intent to insult you ok?)Kyloe have
you ever studied ancient greek? apart from the fact that is the
largest and one of the most complicated languages i ve heard the
there is a lot in common with german... (only diff. is we dont use
so meny bloody consonants in a row!is true that there are words in
german with more than 30 characters???
| posted February 24, 1999 01:22 PM
Good grief! Have you no manners? I'd be very offended if I were
Kyloe. But I'm not, so I'll let her speak for herself.
| posted February 24, 1999 02:27 PM
Kyloe, boojum: I spent some hours in the last night to think about
the "Dötten"-thing (When I have this problems with my falling
asleep, then I can spent the time thinking about those things ).
I remembered the word "Dotz" as a childish word for "Kopf", that
is head. That word would fit the northern german dialect the apes
are using. "Dopp" or "Kopp", as Kyloe suggested, would be rather a
western german slang (rheinländisch, I d guess).
The word "Dotz" would have the diminutive form "Dötzchen", and
that can easily be spoken similar as "Dötten". Equal if it is "Kopp"
or "Dotz", its fine that there is another meaning than tits.
But I am still sure that I heard "deine", not "dein", and this is
still strange, because Garrett does not have two or more heads he
could show them.
| posted February 25, 1999 03:22 PM
I think my girlfriend is quite happy with me, thank you
lothril. She is a translator, so she knows her phonetics as well.
I've never heard the word Dotz, but I remember my mother
saying Deez ['de:ts]. I like the idea that
Köppen/Döppen is a diminutive. That would explain the umlaut
and the suffix.
For those of you who don't know what an umlaut
is, notice the dots above the 'o'. The idea is that the suffix '-en'
alone would not be enough to distinguish between Kopp and
Koppen in casual speech. The umlaut, however, alters the
quality of the vowel, so that there is a change in the
stressed syllable. This is such a clear pointer, that the
suffix is no longer required. It is still there in German, but in
modern English it is deleted. Compare foot/feet and
tooth/teeth, etc. (umlaut is used in the construction of
As to dein/deine, let's not forget that the apes are
supposed to speak a pidgin, i.e. a language they don't really know.
If Döppen was a plural, the pronoun should carry a female
suffix. But if it was a diminutive, its gender would be neutral. So
using deine would be wrong. Choosing the wrong grammatical
gender is typical for somebody who has only a limited knowledge of a
language. It happens to me all the time in French.
It is rather easy to construct words with more than 30
characters, if you limit yourself to mouns. Just add several
morphemes together to create nonsense compounds. There's the
Greek (modern or ancient) is a rather distant cousin of German,
compared with English, which is like a brother, and Dutch, which is
like a twin. The relationship is hardly transparent.
As to consonants: there is a canonical form of syllables, which
says that one syllable can consist of one vowel with up to three
consonants preceeding and following it. So the most complex syllable
would be Strumpf (stocking) or Pflanz- ('z' is
pronounced 'ts'). As you can see from the latter example, consonant
clusters are often reduced in modern English (plant). But
strong has three consonants before the vowel, too. Can
anybody come up with a canonical syllable in English?
-Oliver Kyloe, who gets easily carried away talking about
[This message has been edited by Kyloe (edited February 25,
| posted February 25, 1999 06:02 PM
Geez, this thread certainly lives up to its title.
| posted February 25, 1999 09:10 PM
...elektrizitätenaufgetriebst... (from memory, so I probably screwed
it up...) Kind of cool that my thread evolved into a German
discussion. Ich glaube daß es geil ist. My grammar is probably all
screwed up...haven't taken German in a little over a year, so I
don't concentrate on all my grammar as I should. Watch me butcher
the saying below!
guter Dieb ist einen ruhigen Dieb.
| posted February 26, 1999 04:31 AM
Alright Aye knows the horse is dead but Aye'll just be given it one
Don't this thread seem suggestive o'the sort o'brain that Thief
attracts? Show me a conversation ter equal this on an another forum
deadicated ter a first person slaughterhouse game. Yer a brainy lot,
Chums, and Aye likes yer.
Hist and Ho
| posted February 26, 1999 05:53 AM
Kyloe, do plurals count as canonical syllables? What about digraphs?
Just one off the top of my Dotz.
| posted February 26, 1999 06:15 AM
what strange power in this weird universe made me think Kyloe was a
woman my god!!!!i dont know why i presumed...geez!!!must be the
tricksters doing ..dunno something in the name clicked inside me
...god i have no excuse...
i am a rotten little worm that
deserves nothing but...now that i think about it i thought Kyran
Ward was a woman in the beggining... something must be terribly
wrong with me... maybe i am too lonely... seeing women
thats sad my friend... sad...well the relation
between german and greek has to do more with the descriptive power
the flexibility and certain grammatical formulas than the actual
origins or the way the language sounds... i ve done my research in
the matter (though not on a prof level like you)and i want to create
my own language and alphabet....thats after i finish
canonical syllables in greek can consist of up to two
consonants and one vowel... only...words with one vowel can only
have one or two consonants..no not six..in english though i can get
five with "thought" or six with "scramble" and thats as far as i can
think at eleven thirty in the morning...
| posted February 26, 1999 11:45 AM
lothril: Since my girlfriend knows her phonetics, I guess that I am
one lucky bugger.
JordanCS: Almost right, but you used the wrong case for the
object. It must be Nominativ and not Akkusativ. So the
sentence should be :
"Ein guter Dieb ist ein ruhiger Dieb."
Cadfael: You are one of the main reasons I keep coming back to
NaeS + lothril: The idea is to count the number of consonants
that are pronounced! Strings has the form cccvcc,
because 'ng' is only one consonant in this case (cf. singer
and finger). Thought, despite its complex look, has
the form cvc, so it's quite simple. Scramble looks like a
canonical syllable, but I'm afraid that the 'l' is syllabic, which
means that the word has in fact two syllables. So you end up with
One of my teachers said there was no canonical
syllable in English, but I haven't given up the search yet. Thanks
for your help, guys. Perhaps you can help me contradict her.
Remember that a syllable can also be a part of a long word.
PS: What is a digraph?
| posted February 26, 1999 05:21 PM
I think the sentence is much funnier with the "Dötten"... I like to
have a reason for my cruel behavior against the apes.
| posted February 26, 1999 06:09 PM
Kyloe, what about strengths?
S = Consonant sound
R = Consonant sound
E = Vowel sound
TH = Consonant sound
S = Consonant
| posted February 27, 1999 12:18 PM
Strengths looks very much the thing. But I wonder whether you
can really pronounce it with all consonants. I know I can't.
Thanks for your help, anyway.
I'm with Lytha here, Dötten are much more agreeable than
Döppen... ...I mean is!!
Those who ha' w' Garrett bled
| posted March 01, 1999 05:34 PM
FWIW, I can pronounce strengths will all the consonant sounds
| posted March 02, 1999 08:27 AM
Kyloe, a digraph is a pair of consonants that make one sound like
'th', 'ph', etc. A dipthong (spelling?) is a pair of vowels, i.e.
oe, ae, etc. A consonant and a vowel that make one sound maybe
counted as a digraph, but I'm not sure. I don't think there are any
in English. There's plenty in Irish though, like the 'se' in the
name 'Sean'. Also some in Turkish.
As for 'ng' as in strings, I've always thought of it as two
sounds. A 'n' sound followed by a 'g', slurred together. It's really
no different than the 'str'. But then I'm no expert, and as you've
already shown, you know more than I.
'Strengths' sounds like a contender to me.