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Author Topic:   Translator's wanted...
Jyre
Member
posted March 10, 1999 01:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
After spouting all that stuff yesterday about the attitudes of some English speaking people I have decided that maybe I could be doing a little more for non-English speakers who visit my website. The only problem is my French and German are diabolical (crap). I would have liked to learn more German but when I changed schools when I was 13 they told me they didn't teach German so I had to do French. (Nothing against it, just a darn sight harder to learn)
Anyway, I was wondering if any helpful person or persons would be willing to translate A Taffer Legend or Into The Dark into their own language so I could but it on my sight.
(I won't be on the net again till Saturday am (GMT), so don't be annoyed if I don't answer straight away)

Nasha D'Shanta Translates as 'Peace be thy friend' (Malani phrase I did make up)

redEye
Member
posted March 10, 1999 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for redEye   Click Here to Email redEye     Edit Message
well, my French isn't good enough to be any help, but i have a few English suggestions:
1 - i don't know why so many people have trouble this, but when you pluralize things in English, you simply add an s. no apostrophe is needed.
2 - diabolical doesn't seem to fit where yo used it.
3 - from what i know and what i hear, higher level german gets really hard. *shrug*

heehee... not to pick on your or anything, Jyre. just messin' around, really .

-redEye

Sykophant
Member
posted March 10, 1999 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sykophant   Click Here to Email Sykophant     Edit Message
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggg!!!
Higher level German IS hard!!! In German 1 I was pretty good at speaking it and writing it, but by German 2, ...they seem to make up a totally new language!!! Blah!! you can bet I dropped that class faster than I dropped an annoying chamberpot that accidently got highlighted when I was trying to pick up a goblet.

------------------
-=}+{::::::}+{=-

Pilfer
Member
posted March 11, 1999 04:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pilfer     Edit Message
German is hard? This is opposed to English where you have to memorize a new form of a word for every tense?

All hail the Mutt Languages!

Lytha
Member
posted March 11, 1999 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
German is not hard. I really dont understand why almost every not native speaker has to say it was. I had really no problems to learn it, when I started my language development. And when even a 2 year old kid can easily achieve that language, so why do you say it was hard to learn?

And as I emailed you, I could offer you some help, Jyre.

Mnuba
Junior Member
posted March 11, 1999 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mnuba   Click Here to Email Mnuba     Edit Message
In my very uneducated opinion, we would be doing the world a big favor by requiring second and third langauges taught to elementary school children in the U.S. .
As things stand now we don't require Foriegn language until high school. My understanding is learning a second language is much easier in first through third grades.

Jyre
Member
posted March 11, 1999 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Elementry? Is that like junior (4-11?) I agree. Everything, is easier to learn when you're young.
And, Redeye, I quote from the Oxford English dictionary "diabolical= disgracefully bad" so my use of it was correct. As for the apostraphy, I do blush in shame. Always I am pointing such out to others and then I do turn round and repeat the mistake. Ha! Hypocrit!

Thaumaturge
Member
posted March 11, 1999 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thaumaturge   Click Here to Email Thaumaturge     Edit Message
In the U.S., elementary school generally means grades 1-6. Middle school being grades 7 & 8, and high school are grades 9-12.

I quote from the Oxford English dictionary "diabolical= disgracefully bad"

That must be across the pond, or European English then. Us yanks tend to go by Webster's dictionary. I'm a 27 year old, well read, college graduate and have yet to come across that use of diabolical. Over here it is used as "cunning and evil." For example:
"Garret was finally able to thwart Constantine's diabolical plan for overthrowing mankind."

Chalk it up to regional differences of dialect.

I think over in England, "I just smoked a fag." Refers to lighting and smoking a cigarette:

Over here in Chicago, "I just smoked a fag." Means that I shot and killed a homosexual.

Ducking and running,
Thaumaturge

[This message has been edited by Thaumaturge (edited March 11, 1999).]

Jyre
Member
posted March 11, 1999 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Grades? I meant years.

Kyloe
Member
posted March 11, 1999 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyloe   Click Here to Email Kyloe     Edit Message
Any language is hard to learn, once you've reached a certain level. I remember a time when I thought I could express myself in either English or German without any noticable difference. This was shortly after I started reading novels in English. It didn't last long, though. I'm now far more proficient in German, because I'm not a child anymore.

I'm 30 now, so I've been learning English for twenty years. It's easy in the beginning, because a simple English is so similar to German. But it gets really hard on an academic level. Semantics then becomes a nightmare. Why is the British head of government a Prime Minister, while the president's wife is the First Lady? And to make things even more confusing, Northern Ireland has a First Minister.
What's the difference between liberty and freedom, except that the former is French and the latter is German? Estimates say that there are at least twice as many words in English than in German.

BTW, I don't believe that you have the Oxford English Dictionary, Jyre. That has more than twenty volumes (w/o appendices) and costs a fortune. I guess that you have a dictionary from the Oxford University Press. But my two Collins dict. support your reading. Must be the British dialect, because diabolical wouldn't be used in that way in German, either.

Wouldn't it be helpful for people in, say Florida, California, Texas, etc. to learn Spanish in elementary school, when two thirds of the population are native speakers of the language? But who am I to say that - I never took the trouble to learn Turkish. And you can get really far with that in Berlin.


-Kyloe

PS: Maybe you do have the OED, Jyre. Despite the spelling, your language production is really superb.

Kyloe
Member
posted March 11, 1999 05:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyloe   Click Here to Email Kyloe     Edit Message
I think I have to explain that a little better. I don't see any difference between liberty and freedom, yet I have to know that "liberty of speech" is just as wrong as "statue of freedom". And why can't you say "freedom statue", which is what the lady is called in German (or would that be hyphenated)?
What's the difference between safety and security? English is easy to learn, but so hard to master.

Another paradigm: Comparisons are constructed in the Germanic fashion, as long as the original adverb has only one or two syllables, but in the French/Latin way when it is polysyllabic.
tall taller tallest Germanic
beautiful more beautiful most beautiful Romance
At least there's a rule in this case.

Another one: Why, oh why is it "the president elect" and not "the elected prez"?

I'm not a psycholinguist (honestly, I'm not ), but I think High School is definitely too late to start learning your first foreign language.

-Kyloe, linguist-psycho

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Those who ha' w' Garrett bled

Zirnike
Member
posted March 11, 1999 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Zirnike   Click Here to Email Zirnike     Edit Message
Kyloe: Ignore titles. They're always weird. The Prime Minister was probably called that because at the time it was more accepted usage. Or simply because it sounded cooler...

'Prez elect' is correct.
elect \E*lect"\, n. 1. One chosen or set apart.
It's old termanology again.

Liberty is the 'exemption from another claiming ownership', while freedom is 'exemption from power and control of others.' Freedom is the more powerful. But, in case you missed it, I'm American and I still needed to look these up.

Shades of meaning are really bad in English. Especially here, where tone gets left out of the picture... And then you get the even worse effects of slang, as the people here are so diverse. A lot of my friends don't understand me when I start talking hacker slang (real hackers, not War3z d00d3z)... and they're all from Massachusettes, too. And so it progresses... my friends use some of my slang, and I was quoting Auston Powers for about a year before I saw the movie. In tech circles (like the web) it's even worse... (Come on, how many people would be able to say 'Linux? Yeah, it's that freeware OS, right?' without the web?)

Enough rambling in bad english about how bad english is.

Zirnike, More Better than you.

redEye
Member
posted March 12, 1999 01:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for redEye   Click Here to Email redEye     Edit Message
from my knowledge (which i'll grant ain't much), English is hard because of the exceptions. the rules themselves (subjectively) don't seem so bad, but they're often broken, as it's something of a mutt language (good call, pilfer). Consider this comparison of the verb "to speak" en English, French, and German (heehee... i just felt like it, ok? it kinda illustrates a point).
to speak:
I speak ***** we speak
you speak ***** they speak
he speaks ***** you speak
pretty simple, no?
parler:
je parle ***** nous parlons
tu parles ***** ils parlent
il/elle/on parle * vous parlez
(normally, when i conjugated things in French, I would put vous below nous - this is the form I learned for German, actually).
sprechen:
ich spreche ***** wir sprechen
du sprichst ***** ihr sprecht
er/sie/mann(?) spricht * Sie/sie sprechen
corrections are welcome.

see what that mostly useless display demonstrated? these things - especially to the native English speaker - seem excessively complex in other languages. combine that with genders for nouns (a completely foreign concept to us, for the most part) and explicit explanation of stuff like nominative, accusative, dative, and genetive cases. to be quite honest, i'm not even sure if/how these are implemented in English - that's the kind of stuff that i kind of implicitly got the hang of by being immersed in the language. which, BTW, is, AFAICT, the only way to really get a grasp of any language - become immsrsed in it.

oh, and Thaum wasn't 100% correct in his explanation of the school system in the US. there's some variability in that; for instance, my elementary school was 1-5 and middle school was 6-8.

Kyloe - like I said, the only way to grasp the subtelties of any language, IMHO, is to immerse oneself in it for extended periods of time. different synonyms just have different connotations that most natives tend to be familiar with. just out of curiousity, how often do you speak with native English speakers (ok, besides this board . hrmm... should that be "besides" or "beside?" i'm stumped... both seem a bit wrong to me for some reason)?

and in kanada, from what i hear, if you talk about "creamy, white homo," you're discussing milk...

What's the difference between safety and security? Safety is more a personal thing - if I drive carefully, or if I wear a hardhat while on a construction site, that's safety. Security is more like an alarm system for your house, or financial security, or a security officer (rent-a-cop ). It's all in the connotations that the native hears... And things like "freedom of speech" could almost be seen as idiomatic. It's just the way it's always said, so it would sound wierd any other way. ooh... wierd. I like the fact that in German, there's a rule for i's and e's, and it's actually followed .

And I believe, speaking physiologically, that it's best to start learning languages before you're 6. Even most of elementary school is a little late, but it gets really hard once you're old enough for high school. I suppose it's just another American arrogance...
hey, out of curiousity (and I hope I don't offend anyone; this is just a stereotype...) are the French really, in general, arrogant towards Americans?

well, there's my 2 Pfenning. hrmm... does anyone have iparty? just a random thought...

-redEye the r337

[This message has been edited by redEye (edited March 12, 1999).]

Ishy
Member
posted March 12, 1999 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ishy     Edit Message
Have vision, my friends! No-one will ever HAVE to learn another language in a few years time, as flawless instant speech translators will soom be perfected. Just look at the existing tech:

Dictation software - good now, 3-4 years until perfect.

Text-speech converters - good now, flawless in 1-2 years.

Translation software - adequate now, maybe 3-4 years until perfect.

then add another 5 years for someone to realise they can all be put together

so we shall be free from the tyranny of insane, unintelligible Japanese / French / German / American tourists!

------------------
When thy life is cleft and scorched,
When death and despair leap at thee,
Beat not thy breast and curse thy evil fate,
But thank the Builder for the trials that shape thee.

Archdaemon
Member
posted March 12, 1999 02:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Archdaemon   Click Here to Email Archdaemon     Edit Message
Sigh... and here I am, 17 and trying to learn Japanese. Why? Why why why? And more importantly, how? I swear, if I ever have brood, I'm gonna have 'em multilingual by age 8. I hear that after about age 12 (was it?) that no matter how 'fluent' you become, your brain patterns, as you speak the language, will never be the same as those of a native speaker... I wonder if a form of hypnosis or even self-hypnosis would be useful in putting the mind in the right state to most efficiently learn a language? If I can mentally regress myself to the state of a 4 year old for about an hour a day (heeheehee), then maybe sit myself down in front of a bunch of foreign films and what not, maybe I'd pick things up better. Sigh.
Boku wa baka desu. And I've entirely given up on learning Japanese as a written language... 3 writing systems? Give me a break!!!!!! All hail romaji.

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Archdaemon, Grandmaster of Perdition, otherwise known as "He Who Names His Lint"

Pilfer
Member
posted March 12, 1999 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Pilfer     Edit Message
I recall having read in several separate articles that the brain starts to "weed out" unused linguistic by the time a child is a toddler. Apparently, as I recall reading, if you aren't introduced to a language before age three or so it becomes increasingly harder for most people to learn.

Of course, this has to be tempered with the fact that at a more mature age you can approach learning systematically. But I don't think it makes up for the grasp you pick up from being immersed in a language/culture. Then again, when kids screw up a verb tense or some grammatical rule, they generally don't get as embarassed or frustrated as I do

Time to wrap up this little diatribe. Speaking as an American with absolutely no talent for languages -- not even my supposedly "native" tongue, as is most likely apparent from my posts -- I have to admit I kind of enjoy English's knack for acquiring words. As I recall, doesn't the Academy of France actually forbid the use of foreign words in official and/or public capacities? Wasn't there a rule passed several years ago stating that babies may only be given French names?

Pilfer, IgNoRiNt BuTt LeRnIn'

Jyre
Member
posted March 12, 1999 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Couple of things:
1) The school thing. In England Infants/Juniors or Primary is for kids aged 4/5-10/11 (Years 1-6)
Secondary is for 11-16yrs, (Years7-11) after that you can go to sixth form or college, uni etc.
Normally second languages are introduced at the start of secondary, which is way to late.
2)Reading all this has reminded me of something we did at A-level English concerning the learning of languages. There was a deaf/dumb couple with a kid and the kid could use sign language perfectly but couldn't speak a word because she/he (can't remember which) never had any interaction with people who could talk. The couple used to sit the kid in front of the T.V. but because there was no interaction s/he never picked any of it up. So, it pretty much proved (along with some other studies) that in order to learn a language you do have to immerse yourself in it. And I remember something language patterns becoming fixed after a certain age as well.
3)(I know I said a couple. I lied ) Forget the rules! My grammer is pants! Say what sounds right and most people'll understand. And I know what you mean about the regional thing. I've lived in two countries (England and Scotland), and two different regions in England so I've had to pick up different meanings of words just to get by. (I'm 20, by the way) Which is why I sometimes come out with things no-one else understands.
4) Okay, Kyloe, I confess, it's the 'concise' Oxford English diconary . Along with the thesauras, book of grammer and book of English usage (all of which I rarely consult)

And whilst I was writing this I noticed the little advert for mortgages and thought to myself 'mort' is French for death (isn't it?). So the loan people take out for property is a deathgage? Pretty gruesome, huh?
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Nasha D'Shanta - Peace be thy friend.
Algar D'Shanta - Peace be thy guide.
Rach D'Shanta - Peace be thy death.

[This message has been edited by Jyre (edited March 12, 1999).]

Cadfael
Member
posted March 13, 1999 04:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cadfael   Click Here to Email Cadfael     Edit Message
Hang on folks there be a flood o'cant comin yer way.

There be a unique predisposition in brains what humans got fer the aquirin o'symbol systems early on. Not jest language but culture too. Why?

This gets us inter the nature o'human development as opposed to other animals. Yer see, bipedalism be at the core o'the issue. Women's pelvic openins can't be any wider er they can't be walkin, so a human bairn's brain can't be any larger than , what? 375cc, er somethin like that. Other mammals are basically born w'their brains half they adult size. While humans are born with a brain more like a third adult size. This relation between birth canal and brain size be called the "growth curve." If humans followed a growth curve like a close relative in the great apes fer example, human gestation would be around 21 months er so. That means human brains be takin experiences in the outside werld with a brain that ain't as ready as a close relatives is fer a year. Follow?

If we look at whats come out o'the ground in Africa we can see that when tools first appeared was the same time as our ancestors brains were around 825cc (more than double the constraint o'375cc). Likely the differnce in brain development enabled a new kind o'learnin what got selected fer over time. So how long afore yer brain were half adult size? About the time learnin languages stops being native learnin and starts being something yer werks at.

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Hist and Ho

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