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Author Topic:   Question about school system
Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 08:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Hello, this has nothing to do with Thief (well, but only at the first look).

What are understandable words for the degrees in your school system (speaking to the English and U.S.-people in this forum). I would like equivalents for "Mittlere Reife", "Abitur", "Vordiplom", "Diplom", "Promotion und Habilitation". I know almost nothing about your US- or UK-Schoolsystem; and this stuff with "highschools", "colleges", and so on irritate me very much. Any help? Anyone able to give me some matching words?

After some hours searching in the web, and in the dictionaries, I am only more irritated. Please help!

Stonewall
Member
posted April 03, 1999 10:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stonewall   Click Here to Email Stonewall     Edit Message
Lytha:

The US school system is standardized and varies little from state to state.
students are required to register and start attending by their sixth birthday. The system is divided into twelve grades, each lasting nine months of classes and three months of summer vacation. Prmary school is six grades, until the student is about twelve, middle school is seventh and eighth grades, and high school consists of the final four grades, which are called Freshman for 9, sophomore for 10, junior for 11, and Senior for 12. After completing twelve years, the student graduates, and receives a diploma, or certificate of completion (which he may or may not be able to read). If his grades are good enough, he may enter college at his own expense, which is another four years of training in a specialized field. I'll let the college boys explain graduate school, but suffice it to say, if you desire to own one of the fine BMW products, college is a must.
There are some variances in rules and quality from state to state, but the entire public education system is controlled by the Federal government, giving them the opportunity to try out wacky social schemes and socialist programs on the children.
Some folks teach their kids at home, which is permitted in some areas, especially if the parents have religious objections to the State curriculum, or if they want their kids to learn something useful.
I'm sorry I cannot translate...my German is limited to requests for einander Bier, Herr Ober, and various rude proposals.
I hope this helps you a bit, and I'm sure more Thieves wil correct my mistakes.

----------
The free are always in debt to the brave.

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Okay.
Infants: age four to seven.
Junior:7-11
These can also be combined and called primary. Labelled years one to six, each year running from september to july.
You then move up to secondary school, for age 12-16. (Years 7-11 (confusing, no?) At the end of this you take GCSE's (General Qualification of Secondary Education). You can then opt to stay on for two years and take A(Advanced)-levels, S and AS levels. Or go to college and do the same. Alternatively you could take NVQ's (National Vocational Qualification) or GNVQ's General NVQ's.
From there you can go on to univerisity and study for degrees and what not (haven't done it so can't say exactly what.
Alternativly you could take a HNC, which is (according to my careers advisor) degree equivalent (I intend to do this in sep). This is done at college.
It's slightly different in Scotland but I was educated in England so that's all I know.
If you're confused about any of it, let me know.

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 10:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Okay, if I call the educational levels "No degree, High School, College, Master's degree, University, PhD, Higher". Can this be understood and can everyone find a match for his educational degree?

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
I think I see the equivalents. That should be okay.

Stonewall
Member
posted April 03, 1999 10:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stonewall   Click Here to Email Stonewall     Edit Message
Actually, in the USofA, that would be:
Beggar/laborer/drug dealer
High School Diploma
College or University (the terms are interchangable here)
Graduate School
Doctorate (BMWs & Jaguars)

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Lol, shall I replace the words in the secret paperwork of mine, Stonewall?

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
The terms in the UK are:
None
Standard education
Further education
Higher eduaction
Would that be better?

Stonewall
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stonewall   Click Here to Email Stonewall     Edit Message
Please feel free to use my words in any way you see fit, hilfreich fraulein.

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Those categories do not match very well to what I intended. They must be interpreted first: "I am visiting university and am working on my diploma. Am I now higher educated, or only further?" %-)

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Then take away the 'none' and stick 'in' infront.

Stonewall
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stonewall   Click Here to Email Stonewall     Edit Message
Depends, again, on US or UK. An American would say "I am in college and working toward a degree" as a diploma is generally used to denote a High School Education. The word 'college' may refer to almost any scchool beyond High School, except Trade School, which opens a whole new set of definitions.

[This message has been edited by Stonewall (edited April 03, 1999).]

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Lytha, you're in higher education but are qualified up to further.

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Err, the categories make a sense, somehow, because you can try to match it on your own educational system. But I am still unsure about it... %)

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Unsure how?

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Oh well, I will think about it later. After doing the IQ-test, and after our actual gaming. And then: Thief-CD in the 'puter and start the game. Have not played it for too long.

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
Very sensible. Things always make more sense if you haven't been thinking about them for ages

Lytha
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Oh well, but then come the questions afterwards. Questions like "if your wrists have been broken, how did you write?"

Jyre
Member
posted April 03, 1999 11:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jyre   Click Here to Email Jyre     Edit Message
hehe.
If I come up with anything I'll let you know. And if you're really lucky, some of the other forum members will come along and help out

cjoshuav
Member
posted April 04, 1999 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cjoshuav   Click Here to Email cjoshuav     Edit Message
Speaking as a professional graduate student:

Associate's Degree - This is a two-year university (as you understand it - not as we use it) degree. It is very specialized and generally amounts to technical training. It is rarely used these days.

Bachelor's Degree - This is generally a liberal arts degree (either a B. Arts or a B. Science). It is a four-year university degree that is intended to provide cultural literacy, critical thinking, and communication skills. Generally about half of the course work covers the broad liberal arts (math, science, social science, literature, art), etc. The other half of the course work gives a more intensive (although by no means specialized) survey of a specific discipline. It is assumed that specific job training will be provided by an employer.

Interestingly, Bachelor's degrees were never designed to be the mainstay of the middle class work force. They were intended to provide broad preparation for graduate/professional students and for teachers. A number of factors have changed the expectations for the degree, but not the general requirements.

The Bachelor's academic gown is black, with narrow sleeves and no hood.

Master's Degree These fall into two categories: professional and academic/research. In either case, the Master's is a 1 & 1/2 to three year, highly specialized degree.

The professional degrees (M.B.A., M.Div., M.S.W...) are all intended to provide specialized job training (in the above examples: for business people, clergy, and social workers - respectively). They generally require an evaluated internship.

The academic degrees (M.A. and M.S.) are designed to allow further research/training in a specific field of knowledge. They generally require a research thesis - a relatively short but very focused research paper.

The Master's gown is black, with wide sleeves and a narrow hood.

Doctorate - Here again the degrees fall into two categories: professional and academic. The professional degrees are primarily medical: M.D. or O.D. (human Physician), D.V.M. (Veterinarian), Pharm.D. (Pharmacist), D.O. (Optometrist), D.C. (Chiropractor), J.D. (Attorney), D.Min. (Clergy). With the exception of the J.D. and the D.Min., these are all four year, university programs. Admission generally requires a Bachelor's Degree with exceptional grades and test scores. The J.D. requires 3 years (and the absence of a soul). The D.Min. only requires one year, but it also requires an M.Div. (which is a three-year Master's degree).

The other category of doctorate, the academic/research, is almost always awarded as a Ph.D. If the person concentrates specifically in education, they may receive an Ed.D. (which differs only from the Ph.D. in the (sad) absence of a language requirement. If the degree is received from a seminary, it might be a Th.D.

Any research doctorate generally assumes a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree. Beyond that, the candidate is expected to do 2-3 more years of coursework in their discipline. At this point, they take comprehensive exams in their field as well as reading exams in two (or more) foreign languages (the Ph.D. in Religion at Emory requires 5!). If they pass these exams they are admitted to candidacy, at which point they are expected to complete a dissertation. The dissertation is an extremely focused research project which is summarized in monograph (book) form. If the dissertation is satisfactory, the Ph.D. is awarded.

Despite popular perception otherwise, research doctoral programs are generally far more competitive than professional ones. (We need far more physicians than we do professors.) I know of cases where there will be 350 applicants for 12 Ph.D. slots.

The doctoral gown has three horizontal stripes on each sleeve, velvet lining along the front, and a wide hood.

I hope this is sufficient. If not, I can ramble on even more on this topic (or any other for that matter ).

Peace,

Joshua

[This message has been edited by cjoshuav (edited April 04, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by cjoshuav (edited April 12, 1999).]

Kyloe
Member
posted April 05, 1999 04:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyloe   Click Here to Email Kyloe     Edit Message
Thank you, Joshua! I will save this thread for future reference.

------------------
Those who ha' w' Garrett bled

Ergates
Member
posted April 05, 1999 08:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ergates   Click Here to Email Ergates     Edit Message
Lytha, if you were looking for a term for someone at university who is still studying for a degree, the word Undergraduate fits well. (Then you go on to be a Graduate, when you complete, and a Postgraduate if you continue in higher education).

If you continue in the Unversity after a Ph.D, you become a Postdoctoral researcher.

This is in the UK.
There is room for confusion between the US and UK in the different meaning of "College", in the States (it seems to me) that it means Univeristy, whereas here it is where you go before university (17-18 yr olds)

Kyran Ward
Member
posted April 08, 1999 12:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyran Ward   Click Here to Email Kyran Ward     Edit Message
I don't think anyone will mind if I officially dub this to be, by far, the remotest tangent this forum has ever floated off on. Bravo!

------------------
"History is philosophy teaching by examples"
-Thucydides, admittedly a dusty old Greek historian


cjoshuav
Member
posted April 08, 1999 11:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cjoshuav   Click Here to Email cjoshuav     Edit Message
Thanks Kyloe. It's nice to be a reference. I actually saved what I typed as well, since I answer that question frequently aloud; but rarely have to do it in writing.

Cheers

CardinalFang
Junior Member
posted April 09, 1999 12:28 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CardinalFang   Click Here to Email CardinalFang     Edit Message
Ah, how I do enjoy going off on a good tangent. Just thought I'd clarify the difference between college and university here in the U.S.

A college is an institution of higher learning (higher learning = post high-school) which is devoted to a particular discipline. For instance, a business college, a liberal arts college, a law college, etc.

A university is a collection of two or more colleges which functions as a single academic institution and which is presided over by a single president. Each college within the university still has its own dean, staff, and various divisions. Colleges are like states and the university staff is like the Federal government.

For instance, here at San Diego State University we have colleges of Business Administration, Professional Studies and Fine Arts, Arts and Letters, Engineering, etc. Each individual college has its own rules in addition to the university rules which bind everyone.

In colloquial usage, we say we are "attending college" whether we are at a college or university. The distinction is, well, er, academic. Pun intended.

Futher complicating this mess of terminology is the "community college", or "junior college" (commonly called a J.C.). These colleges have no admission requirements other than a high-school diploma, and are generally very inexpensive. They offer various programs of study which lead to two year degrees (Associate's Degrees) and another type which wasn't mentioned: the Professional Certificate. A certificate is a specific program of study for certain occupations such as Typist, Transcriptionist, Therapist, etc. Note that a J.C. CANNOT award a degree higher than Associate's.

Hope that helps, if not, oh well... Also, if you already knew this, sorry for insulting your intelligence. It seems so perfectly clear to me, since I live here. Kind of like explaining what a supermarket is.

CardinalFang

Ninja
Member
posted April 09, 1999 04:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ninja   Click Here to Email Ninja     Edit Message
It's all quite different here in Oz, we have Junior School and Senior School as years 1-6 and 7-12 respectively, then on to University, which is pretty much like a US Uni. A big difference is our Colleges. These are actually attached to the uni's and are actually residential places, like "staying on campus" in the US. Most of the colleges here are about as old as the uni's they are attached to.

CardinalFang
Junior Member
posted April 09, 1999 04:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CardinalFang   Click Here to Email CardinalFang     Edit Message
Oh, our universities are like that too. Usually, you decide to build a university in a particular spot and then you add buildings and call them "colleges". The dorms are shared for all the colleges on our campus.

Our school is kind of unusual in that it started out as a state teacher's college. Later, the state of California built a bunch more colleges around it and gave it University status.

CardinalFang

enrm6
Junior Member
posted April 09, 1999 10:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for enrm6   Click Here to Email enrm6     Edit Message
Just to clarify the response by cjoshuav. I assume the detail regard the system here in the uk, if not please forgive me.

Typically Bachelors degrees are 3 years in duration and can be expanded to four through a sandwhich year (between academic years two and three) that involves a year in industry. They are the most common type of degree and cover everything from arts, through humanities, science, engineering, etc.

Between Masters and Doctorate levels there is the MPhil. A 1 or 2 year version of a doctorate but of lesser scope.

An academic doctorate has a duration of 3 years but only typically due to the way the funding works. A doctorate can be completed in more-or-less any time scale depending on how hard the student works. I have known PhDs completed in less than 2 years and more than 7. An academic doctorate can be completed in two ways. The most common is a period of research into a specialist field and the completion of a thesis. The thesis has little formal requirement bar that it must show evidence of furthering the field of study (i.e originality). In conjunction the degree is awarded after a successful defence of the thesis through a viva voce (oral examination) where the student is subjected to a panel examination on the content of their thesis.

The second method of obtaining an academic doctorate is to submit a compilation of work (published papers etc) and possibly a viva (not sure?). This method is for academic staff who are involved in research but not directly for a PhD and who can submit evidence of PhD standard research through their published works.

In my experience there are no exams or language requirements for a PhD but this will vary between establishments. Also the gown specifications will vary for example ours (Loughborough University, UK) are:

Bachelors: Black gown, purple hood trimmed with the colour corresponding to the appropriate school (science, engineering etc.) mortarboard (carried only).

Masters: As above but with extra edging on the hood and can wear their mortarboards.

Doctors of Philosophy: Purple gown, purple hood lined and edged in maroon, black bonnet with maroon cord and tassels.

There are others..

Russ

cjoshuav
Member
posted April 10, 1999 03:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cjoshuav   Click Here to Email cjoshuav     Edit Message
Russ,

The least amount of time that anyone I know has spent on a Ph.D. over here was four years. The course work alone is usually two to three years; and a person would have to work with astounding speed to complete the dissertation in less than two years.

Ph.D. dissertations are defended orally before a committee over here as well. It is not generally considered a pleasant process.

Our academic regalia was standardied quite a while ago. The gowns are the same for all institutions (with the exception of Harvard). The colors of the hood lining for the Master and Doctoral degrees ae determined by the institution's color and the discipline of the degree.

Joshua

LondoMollari
Junior Member
posted April 11, 1999 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for LondoMollari   Click Here to Email LondoMollari     Edit Message
I don't think anybody has mentioned Kindergarden, which usually lasts one year before beginning first grade. Required education is usually described as K-12.

There are also numerous "Pre-School" schools that handle even younger children.

The only regional variation I can think of for K-12 is whether or not there is a Middle School (6-8th grades) or a Junior High (7-9th grades). This impacts the number of grades in High School, but not the name.

However, High School Diplomas' have become so de-valued that having that as your top level of education get's you almost no respect. You can get even less respect by getting a Graduate Equivelency Diploma [GED] which is equal to a high school diploma only in theory.

Getting at minimum some sort of 2 year certification after high school is now almost a requirement for getting a non-menial job. Though some High School systems are trying to toughen their requirements back up to something meaningful.

---Edited for spelling sigh.... You never realize how much you use a spell checker until you hit a baord with out one.

[This message has been edited by LondoMollari (edited April 11, 1999).]

Ergates
Member
posted April 11, 1999 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ergates   Click Here to Email Ergates     Edit Message
In the UK, you are strongly "encouraged" to complete your thesis within three years of starting, though few people do. A lot of places won't let you submit if you take longer than for years (from starting) to complete. Research is completed within 2.5 years after which (usually) you are not allowed back into the lab. Then you spend upto a year and a half (though usually less) writing up.

There must be differences between UK and US thesis to explain the different times (in UK has to be less that 80,000 words, that is all I know)

cjoshuav
Member
posted April 12, 1999 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cjoshuav   Click Here to Email cjoshuav     Edit Message
The big difference is the coursework. For a Ph.D. in the U.S. you are expected to actually sit in class for about 15 hours a week and do related research/writing (for those classes) for an additional ~20 hours a week. You do not begin doing the actual research for the dissertation until after your first two (sometimes three) years. My guess is that the coursework requirements are intended to balance out the fact that our bachelor's programs are much less focused and our Master's programs are generally shorter than in the U.K.

enrm6
Junior Member
posted April 12, 1999 05:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for enrm6   Click Here to Email enrm6     Edit Message
On April 10 at 03:56 pm cjoshuav wrote:

> Ph.D. dissertations are defended orally before a committee over here as well.
>It is not generally considered a pleasant process.

It most definately isnt!

The coursework issue is one that is on the increase in the UK. A PhD student is required to take a number of undergraduate modules to broaden their knowledge unless they can prove that through doing a Masters they have already met such requirements.

As for duration I think the norm is to spend three years doing research and then x years doing the write up. X being anything from 1 to 4 years depending on whether the person in question devotes all their time to writing up or whether they have to do it in their spare time after work. Typically those doing more applied subjects will take longer as there are external factors such as working with companies that always takes a long time regardless of how hard you work. Whereas pure subjects can just be beaten to death by boffins in their little offices The person I know who completed in 2 years was doing mathematics, and just lived it.

Russ

Lytha
Member
posted April 12, 1999 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lytha   Click Here to Email Lytha     Edit Message
Hi,

I want to thank you all for your explanations and suggestions.

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