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Thread: unreal engine early video

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales

    unreal engine early video

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m7T5ay_8DI
    They must have cut the polygon size in half again for gears of war.
    There seems to be alot of texture pop in in all the unreal engine games ive played on 360 ,its pretty dissapointing and was bad enough on halo 2.
    Nothing is quite so immersion breaking as watching textures fill the level as a cut scene is playing .. i realy hope irrational can sort this out .
    ITS A REALY BAD PROBLEM AND I DONT KNOW HOW REVIEWERS HAVN'T BEEN NOTICING IT $$$$$

    *halo 2 is obviously not unreal 3 engine ,but it seems as though its success made these little glitches passable
    Last edited by dylan barry; 24th Dec 2006 at 10:40. Reason: merry christmas to everyone ,not long now:)

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    I'm not sure what you are talking about; texture popping, textures fill a level as a cutscene plays. You rather want them to remove textures from the surfaces?

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Sweden
    that movie was an early UE3 tech demo, as often with tech demos, that don't have to run any game code at all and can run on the highest end machine, they will look better than a real game. I haven't played nor seen GoW live, but if it doesn't look exactly like some early tech demo it shouldn't really be a big surprise.

    ITS A REALY BAD PROBLEM AND I DONT KNOW HOW REVIEWERS HAVN'T BEEN NOTICING IT
    I thought reviewers were paid not to notice flaws

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: England
    I don't like unreal engines for some reason. They have always seemed er a bit buggy and crap I dunno there is something bad about them I can't put my finger on. There is not that quality there that you have in something like the dark engine. Hmm I dunno *confused*

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales
    I'm not sure what you are talking about; texture popping, textures fill a level as a cutscene plays. You rather want them to remove textures from the surfaces?
    You can actualy see the textures being filled as you start to play a new level/section,i can imagine this only being a problem with console games and there limited memory but it didnt seem to exist until halo 2 ,now its in almost every 360 game with U.E.3.

    Can someone from irrational adress this ?

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Knott View Post
    I don't like unreal engines for some reason. They have always seemed er a bit buggy and crap I dunno there is something bad about them I can't put my finger on. There is not that quality there that you have in something like the dark engine. Hmm I dunno *confused*
    UE1 had it's flaws, but UE2 and 2.5 had no obvious bugs in them. I play UT2004 and Unreal 2 every now & then; they look and play great.

    The atmospheric lighting of the Dark engine was hard to beat, but I think UE3 pulled that off. (although engines like JupiterEx and Doom 3 already did that)

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: England
    Hmm the thing is i can't put my finger on what makes me uneasy about unreal engines but there is definately something.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales
    They were always the best with outdoor enviroments ,very big ones too.
    I think thats what they always had when id had level geometery ,now unreal have both and the doom 3 engine is not so hot with open areas.All the doom 3 games at the moment seem to borrow alot from each other ,recycled interfaces and character animations .
    It seems the unreal engine is and always has been alot more versatile .

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Knott View Post
    Hmm the thing is i can't put my finger on what makes me uneasy about unreal engines but there is definately something.
    Yes, definitely something; an illusion your mind is creating.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Location: Sweden
    The engine for UT2004 (UE 2.0?) is/was great, dark engine has always looked like shit, even when it was new it got really low scores in reviews.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Oct 1999
    Location: Stuck in some sticky mud, nope quicksand
    If reviewers havent noticed it then maybe there's something wrong with your machine.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales
    If reviewers havent noticed it then maybe there's something wrong with your machine.
    This is about the engines proformance on the xbox 360

  13. #13
    Irrational Games
    Registered: May 2006
    Location: Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by dylan barry View Post
    You can actualy see the textures being filled as you start to play a new level/section,i can imagine this only being a problem with console games and there limited memory but it didnt seem to exist until halo 2 ,now its in almost every 360 game with U.E.3.

    Can someone from irrational adress this ?
    In the end everything comes down to two questions: how much memory do you have available to store all the textures in the world, and how long you want to spend loading them?

    The basic problem is that "next gen" titles use vastly greater amounts of texture and mesh memory than "last gen" titles, both due to increased expectations for visual quality and also increased size/complexity of the game environments. We use approximately 6-8x as much texture memory on models in Bioshock as we did on SWAT 4, for example.

    Bioshock probably uses around 500-600MB of compressed textures (at 8:1 compression!) for an entire level, and that doesn't include Audio data, Mesh data, and lots of other memory that's needed to run the game.

    That's obviously too much to keep in memory at once on a console with only 512 MB of memory *total*. It also would take way too long to load off of DVD. For example, the XBox 360 can only read 8-15mb/sec depending on where the files are located on the DVD, plus it can take up to 1 second to switch between reading one file and another due to the way DVDs work. In addition, if a DVD read fails, for example due to a scratch on the DVD or the disc wobbling in the drive, the drive will repeatedly drop its speed in half in an attempt to get a successful read. As a point of reference, if we loaded the files for each level in a naive fashion, it would take 3 minutes to load on a PC and 20-40 minutes on a console DVD! Needless to say, we've got some tricks up our sleeve to get this to time down to an acceptable time on all platforms. We want to get this right to give you the best possible experience -- to this end we've had our Streaming Content Engineer, Carlos Cuello, working on this for over two years!

    To compensate for all these limitations, what console developers do is try to "stream" in textures that will be needed, but do so just before you can actually see them, and stream out unnecessary textures. This is, needless to say, very difficult to do perfectly under ideal conditions, not to mention when the DVD is performing sub-optimally due to scratches or wobbling.

    (For what it's worth, Bioshock -- and many other current-gen console titles, like Oblivion-- implement caching-to-harddrive for textures and other data, assuming you have a hard drive. This helps considerably, especially when the DVD or DVD-ROM gets old, scratched, or dusty.)

    The downside to asset streaming is that you might see some textures pop in if something doesn't work right. The upside is that it means that developers will be paying a lot more attention to making sure their games have super-fast loadtimes and work in as little memory as necessary. This benefits not only the console versions but the PC versions as well.

    One option you have on the PC is, if your video card is big enough, to just load all the textures for a level into memory at the start of the level. Of course, this easily adds 60+ seconds to the load (because to allow for resolution changes, DirectX keeps textures in local memory and then also uploads a duplicate to the video card). Another option is to drop texture detail, so you don't have to load all the data into memory. Or you can just use the streaming system -- on PC you have a hard drive so it's even less likely that you'll ever see any textures streaming in.

    -Chris Kline, Lead Programmer, Bioshock
    Last edited by ckline; 27th Dec 2006 at 22:33.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    Bloody hell, I thought 512 MB video memory was a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by vurt View Post
    The engine for UT2004 (UE 2.0?) is/was great, dark engine has always looked like shit, even when it was new it got really low scores in reviews.
    The Dark engine beats the UE2 lighting by a long shot, SS2 has such amazingly atmospheric lighting with deep colors, so do all Dark engine games to my knowledge. I have never seen such lighting in any unreal engine-powered game. But maybe UE3 did the trick, We'll have to see about that.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjossi View Post
    The Dark engine beats the UE2 lighting by a long shot, SS2 has such amazingly atmospheric lighting with deep colors, so do all Dark engine games to my knowledge. I have never seen such lighting in any unreal engine-powered game. But maybe UE3 did the trick, We'll have to see about that.
    I think Thief3 had great, atmospheric lightning, and it was UE2 (modified). About "the deep colors" i'm not sure what you're getting at.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Bjossi, have you ever seen the Thievery/NightBlade screenies? If not, you may want to check out Black Cat Games.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: terrible canyons of static
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjossi View Post
    The Dark engine beats the UE2 lighting by a long shot, SS2 has such amazingly atmospheric lighting with deep colors, so do all Dark engine games to my knowledge. I have never seen such lighting in any unreal engine-powered game. But maybe UE3 did the trick, We'll have to see about that.
    I think you're mistaking engine capabilities with level design here.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales
    That's obviously too much to keep in memory at once on a console with only 512 MB of memory *total*. It also would take way too long to load off of DVD. For example, the XBox 360 can only read 8-15mb/sec depending on where the files are located on the DVD, plus it can take up to 1 second to switch between reading one file and another due to the way DVDs work. In addition, if a DVD read fails, for example due to a scratch on the DVD or the disc wobbling in the drive, the drive will repeatedly drop its speed in half in an attempt to get a successful read. As a point of reference, if we loaded the files for each level in a naive fashion, it would take 3 minutes to load on a PC and 20-40 minutes on a console DVD! Needless to say, we've got some tricks up our sleeve to get this to time down to an acceptable time on all platforms. We want to get this right to give you the best possible experience -- to this end we've had our Streaming Content Engineer, Carlos Cuello, working on this for over two years!
    Thanks for time chris ,its great to hear you guys have been working on this ,i realy cant see how they let gears of war ship with such a major graphical glitch , its realy ugly .
    Merry christmas to you all and good luck with the game

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    In that case the level designers for games that use UE2 aren't lighting things up very nicely.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Scoville
    Hmm, seeing the numbers written out is pretty impressive. Makes me wonder how they want to solve the streaming problem with megatexture.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattentänzer View Post
    Hmm, seeing the numbers written out is pretty impressive. Makes me wonder how they want to solve the streaming problem with megatexture.
    Being a level designer, I don't know as much about programming as I would like to, but I have a theory. I think it might have something to do with what you could call a "parent texture". This parent texture would be made up of several smaller textures. The system would dynamically load these smaller textures in and out of the system based on coordinates provided by the parent texture. Again, just a theory.

    Also, thanks Chris for explaining that. It really speaks highly of Irrational to take the time to talk to your hardcore fan base.
    Last edited by killed; 26th Dec 2006 at 05:17.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: Ebbw vale, wales
    Chris, any technical information allowed out concerning the various water simulations ??? .
    I cant believe how well the light moves over it in that trailer.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by ckline View Post
    ...
    Last edited by ckline : 25th Dec 2006 at 16:37.
    You don't like Christmas do you..?

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    I don't see your point...

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2004
    Location: Maritime Provinces (Canada)
    Guess I'm not the only person board over the holidays. I slept in, there was nothing to get up for.

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