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View Poll Results: What should Jesps do?

Voters
49. You may not vote on this poll
  • Go on and finish part 2 in dromEd!

    37 75.51%
  • Continue with the Dark Mod!

    12 24.49%
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Thread: What should happen with Jesps' dromEd project?

  1. #1
    Archivist
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Museum of the Ancients

    What should happen with Jesps' dromEd project?

    I've just heard from Jesps, author of the excellent Scepter of Dor Am'al Part 1, that he is no longer working with dromEd but moved over the Dark Mod.
    This means that the second part, which is already 45% complete, will remain unfinished.

    Sad news for all who were waiting for this mission to arrive .

    This isn't the first time something like this happened. Several other talented authors made the move to DarkRadiant before, leaving their Thief 1/2 work incomplete... catching dust.

    Don't get me wrong, the Dark Mod is the future of FM design, and something I'm following with much interest. It makes sense that authors want to participate in it's development.
    But it shouldn't advance at the cost of interesting dromEd projects. Especially when it's concerns those missions that are part of a story, like Scepter of Dor Am'Al in this case.
    Jesps, we can't just let you go without a debate .

    So.. what do you think must happen to the campaign Jesps was working on.
    Should he finish it? Or should he continue working on the Dark Mod? Make your choice and feel free to post any pro/contra arguments!

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2009
    Location: Situation's changed, Tom.
    I voted for DromEd. Please, don't take this the wrong way, but until now I'm not that enthousiastic about TDM. (Note that I don't know much about it, only saw 3 vids or something.) From what I saw it looked a completely different game (it reminded me a bit of Thief 3. Not meant as criticism, just a note.) I just love how DromEd missions look, and I very much enjoyed part 1 of the Scepter.

    Let's hope TDM gets a great success, and that I will greatly appreciate it and play the missions, but now I would just love to see a DromEd Scepter of Dor Am'al part 2!
    Last edited by PotatoGuy; 5th Aug 2009 at 18:33. Reason: Dor Am'al, not Dor' Amal!

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2007
    Location: Germany
    Once I watched a video made by Komag which illustrated how easy it is to build something with DarkRadiant, compared to DromEd. So I doubt Jesps will turn back to DromEd
    And I doubt anyone else would "adopt" part 2 and finish it, most prefer to work on their one missions which I can perfectly understand.

  4. #4
    Desperately Dodgy Moderator
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: Fields of bluegrass
    Assuming he doesn't change his mind, I can add his mission to my abandoned FM archive if he wants to do so.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2008
    Location: on a mission to civilize
    *agreeing with PotatoGuy*

    I vote for Dromed as well, but somehow I doubt that'll happen.

    ...and be weary, PotatoGuy, as I've annoyed several (still have made love for you BA, no matter what) on numerous occasions with my "thoughts" on TDM. Yes, it probably is the future of FMs, but it shouldn't be the end of Dromed for an authentic (and nostalgic) Thief experience.

  6. #6
    bikerdude
    Guest
    As the saying goes "Ive started so I'll finish" if 45% of it is already done in dromed then.....

  7. #7
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon
    Couple of things I'd like to speak up on.

    First of all, I'd like to encourage Jesps to do what he wants. It's his past time, and he should enjoy what he's doing.

    Then there's the little matter of 45% complete. I know we FM authors have been fooling the public with silly numbers like this for nearly a decade, but it's completely meaningless. It's impossible to know what the ratio of done to not done in a project unless it's been done before and you're doing an exact copy. We tend to err on the finished-side, so in reality the FM could be anywhere from just-started to give-it-another-two-years.

    Finally, I don't know where this talk of DarkMod being the future of FMs comes from, but I think that's just as silly. Yes, DarkMod will be in the future, and yes, people will be able to make FMs for it, but there's no way that it's going to supplant or replace dromed or the dark engine when it comes to Thief editing. I expect that it will become an interesting alternative enjoyed by a niche component of the community, which is a great thing to expect and look forward to.

    That said, good luck to Jesps, and I hope that the DarkMod is good to him!

  8. #8
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    Agreed with Digi.

    If interesting just for info Ship test map by Jesps.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Great. Now I can't get back in
    Yeah, good points, DN!

    I also think Jesps (or any other FM author) should do what he likes & feels comfortable with, within the time he has available for FM design.

    That said, it'd be a real shame if Sceptre Of Dor'Amal, pt 2 doesn't get finished - pt 1 was so enjoyable & virtually begged for a sequel

    (So I can't select either of the 2 poll choices available)

  10. #10
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    Mostly agree with DN, although I see TDM as a potentially larger scene than he seems to suggest. But it is really Jesps' prerogative what to do with his semi-complete FM.

  11. #11
    jtr7
    Guest
    What Digi said.


    TDM won't override the DromEd community. There will be migration, yes. Keep in mind that the Dark Mod assets do not include Thief items. Any author that wants to lean toward an authentic Thief universe will have to make custom crystals (or get them from another author that made them for their own FM). And although making the FM can be a rewarding experience in itself, until Id releases the Doom 3 source code, only those who've purchased and installed Doom 3 will be able to play Dark Mod FMs. Maybe a poll could be created to see how many here have Doom 3 installed, or own a copy to install.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Between dreams and shadows...
    Quote Originally Posted by The Phantom View Post
    Don't get me wrong, the Dark Mod is the future of FM design,
    Quote Originally Posted by intruder View Post
    Once I watched a video made by Komag which illustrated how easy it is to build something with DarkRadiant, compared to DromEd.
    Apples and oranges situation, really.

    I've tried out DarkMod editing, based on the ToSL content, and it's easy provided that all you're doing is reusing stuff. Once you get into custom high quality, high detail stuff, involving wrangling materials, normal mapping, and the other fun parts of working with a modern engine, it can be come even more frustrating than dromed. I actually found myself spending longer doing interesting things in the dark mod than it would take to do the same thing in dromed (the ornate streetlamp on my objects page is a case in point - that was made for dromed in about 15 minutes, trying to get a version that worked for Dark Mod took nearly a day, and involved coding something to help with normal map editing, and I still wasn't satisfied with it.)

    And, while the dromed version of something is not as visually impressive as the dark mod version, there is a problem inherant in using a visually impressive engine: if your custom assets are high quality, they will look very good. If they're slightly less than high quality, they look like ass. You either need to invest lots and lots of time in making your models, textures, and materials just right, or they come out looking mediocre at best.

    There's also the problem of setting - the Dark Mod people are trying, but for obvious reasons they aren't going to be able to transplant the Thief universe across, and at best they can include nods and kinda-likes. Those of us who want to firmly place their work in the Thief setting are faced with either doing what the Dark Mod people dare not, and reproducing the factions, locations, civilisations, and fixtures we have all become familiar with, or compromise the setting to fit into something that, while good, is not Thief.

    I've gone back to Dromed, even though I had no problems using DarkRadiant, and I've used Lightwave for nearly a decade, because it offers the best tradeoff between mission and asset creation speed, custom asset overhead, and setting authenticity. This is not to denigrate the effort the Dark Mod devs have put into their work, but it certainly isn't for me in its current form, and it certainly isn't the future of FM design.

    [/rant]

  13. #13
    Classical Master 2008
    Registered: Jun 2002
    Location: Civitas Quinque Ecclesiae HU
    Now wait; I thought there were water/moss/gas/fire arrows in TDM?!

  14. #14
    New Member
    Registered: Jun 2005
    Location: Kingdom of Denmark
    My turn
    First I am glad - and honored - that someone remembers my map so long after it was released. And that you seem to have liked it.
    However the decision to abandon part 2 for The Dark Mod is final, I'm afraid. This partially an editor issue. I've always loved the thief games (1 and 2) and I enjoyed creating something for them. DromEd however is not that easy to love. There are many bugs, and I find the whole idea of carving rooms out of a giant box a lot less intuitive than DarkRadiant's method of adding solid brushes to an empty world.
    Furthermore DarkRadiant has an easy to use interface (no need to write code) and you can build very quickly once you get used to it.

    @Digital Nightfall: Yes the 45 % is more of a 'how much I felt was done' and not an exact science.

    Now wait; I thought there were water/moss/gas/fire arrows in TDM?
    There are

    Assuming he doesn't change his mind, I can add his mission to my abandoned FM archive if he wants to do so
    I would very much like to take advantage of that offer. If nothing else, people can use it to see how to make a bottle of emetic that the player can put in coffee pot, and have a servant bring it to a guard who then runs to the bathroom to throw up.

    it reminded me a bit of Thief 3
    I would say that DarkMod is more like Thief1 and 2 with a modern engine rather than Thief 3.
    In fact I think that anyone who likes Thief 1 and 2 would also like The Dark Mod.

    I also like to wish all the DromEders out there good luck with your missions in the hope that Thief missions and DarkMod mission can live together in peace and harmony, as a shining beacon of hope for all of humanity (ok that last bit may be a bit far stretched)

    Oh and I voted for the DarkMod option

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Great. Now I can't get back in
    Quote Originally Posted by jesps View Post
    However the decision to abandon part 2 for The Dark Mod is final, I'm afraid.
    Rats Ah, well - best of luck with the DarkMod; hope to have the hardware to play it some day!
    I would very much like to take advantage of that offer. If nothing else, people can use it to see how to make a bottle of emetic that the player can put in coffee pot, and have a servant bring it to a guard who then runs to the bathroom to throw up.
    Cool gameplay device Hopefully someone will take that up, at least.

  16. #16
    jtr7
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Melan View Post
    Now wait; I thought there were water/moss/gas/fire arrows in TDM?!
    Not crystals... devices. It wouldn't make sense for devices to grow in water, earth/plants/mold, up in the air or on steam vents or in spaces with thick air, or in fire, nor to find these scattered around the natural world as in the trilogy. So that aspect of the universe is changed when applied to Thief.


    Have these been changed since this image was released?
    Last edited by jtr7; 6th Aug 2009 at 07:17.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    much as I would like to see the mission completed, it's the authors decision at the end of the day, as with all hobbies you have to enjoy it or you stop wanting to do it

    as for 45% complete, there's a saying, the first 90% of a project takes 90% of the time and resources, the last 10% takes another 90% of the time and resources, so 45% may be accurate or it may not, you don't really know until you've finished

    --EDIT--

    ah didn't see Jesp's post

  18. #18
    Archivist
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Museum of the Ancients
    Booo

    Well, good luck with the Dark Mod Jesps. I've seen the work you did so far and it looks fantastic!

    I still find Part 2 should be finished, but it's your free time and should work with an editor you prefer.
    I certainly hope that dromEd and Dark Mod will co-exist together. Time will tell.

    Now that jesps made his choice clear, I guess this poll has now become pointless.

  19. #19
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by clearing View Post
    If interesting just for info Ship test map by Jesps.
    Those screenies look awesome..

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Nightfall View Post
    Couple of things I'd like to speak up on.

    First of all, I'd like to encourage Jesps to do what he wants. It's his past time, and he should enjoy what he's doing.

    Then there's the little matter of 45% complete. I know we FM authors have been fooling the public with silly numbers like this for nearly a decade, but it's completely meaningless. It's impossible to know what the ratio of done to not done in a project unless it's been done before and you're doing an exact copy. We tend to err on the finished-side, so in reality the FM could be anywhere from just-started to give-it-another-two-years.

    Finally, I don't know where this talk of DarkMod being the future of FMs comes from, but I think that's just as silly. Yes, DarkMod will be in the future, and yes, people will be able to make FMs for it, but there's no way that it's going to supplant or replace dromed or the dark engine when it comes to Thief editing. I expect that it will become an interesting alternative enjoyed by a niche component of the community, which is a great thing to expect and look forward to.

    That said, good luck to Jesps, and I hope that the DarkMod is good to him!
    I definitely couldn't have expressed my thoughts any better than what DN just posted, so I'll only add that even though I feel that way I still voted for finishing it - because hey, more thief 2 missions can never be a bad thing right?

    Edit: Also didn't see that he had posted already. Oh well, good luck with your darkmod work Jesps!

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    I'm a huge proponent of The Dark Mod, obviously, but I also wouldn't want to see Thief 2 FMs disappear. I hope some of you guys are still cranking out awesome T2 maps a decade from now!

    I'm looking forward to getting some more free time (hopefully this winter!) to catch up on some missions, play T2X again (I LOVE that one!), and these upcoming vertical contest missions
    The Keep for Thief 1 and 2 FMs, Shadowdark for Thief 3 and Dark Mod FMs

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: May 2005
    I voted for DromEd, but does not mean it that I would be against the Dark Mod. Indeed, I am the supporter of it because good to know that our favourite game is able to break through into the future. Many players I know, who were fans duly for Thief3 only and they did not know the series till then.
    There is a urgent need for the fresh blood that let the thief's legacy live longer, in this case in the greatest Doom3 world. But into the hell, if right, Thief 4 is coming, and maybe with a very new editor, I hope.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Tennessee
    I haven't really been following the DarkMod project in detail, but I've definitely been looking forward to it as a way of bringing Thief into a more modern engine with more detailed and realistic graphics (I'd had the same hopes for T3, but while it wasn't a bad game in itself, it just didn't feel like Thief to me; I've had higher hopes for TDM).

    Recently I've seen little mentions here and there about how TDM isn't going to contain anything actually of the Thief universe, but I don't know why. I thought that was the point--a mod of Doom3 to bring the Thief universe to the DarkRadiant engine (not to reproduce Thief, of course, but to recreate the universe in a newer game engine). What's the reasoning behind not having anything from the Thief universe in the mod?

    --Jennifer

  24. #24
    jtr7
    Guest
    To steer the development team clear of copyright and intellectual property issues, to cover their butts, and keep their conscience clean.

    Other FM authors can choose not to care about that and create Thief assets, regardless of consequence, but a project like this, with its scope, with the notice it's gotten, and other factors the team could describe much better, is better released without any gray or black copyright issues to think about. It frees them to just develop Thief-like assets without doubt or concern. Obviously it's personal, and no one is forced to share that sentiment once it's released.
    Last edited by jtr7; 8th Aug 2009 at 02:41.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Tennessee
    Ah, I see. That makes sense, in a fashion.

    But how can they make much progress is creating a Thief-like world without including certain very particular aspects, such as elemental crystals? I mean, yes, you can have flaming arrows, something like a water balloon on a stick, a vial of knock-out gas strapped to a shaft, etc., but those things in themselves aren't particularly even Thief-like. Not to mention there's difficulty in including some of the more specific elements of a "Thief-like" universe, like moss arrows and vine arrows (can't really think of how those could work in a more general, non-Thief way). You can always create a pseudo-medieval world with a thief who can hide in shadows, knock out guards from behind, and shoot a water balloon at a torch, but I'm not sure I'd consider that Thief-like, really...just generic medieval stealth.

    I can definitely understand the reasoning, but still.

    I very much hope there are plenty of willing and able FM authors who'll be fairly quick to add in the missing ingredients once TDM is finally released.

    --Jennifer

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