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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #101
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Dml fixes are ok. They are made by the community to fix major problems, missions that cant be finished, objectives that cant be completed, loot that are out of bounds and cant be reached, those kind of things. What im saying is if there's a discrepancy between starting and in game objectives, then youd go with the latter. If there is only 5000 available and it requires 6000, then youll get what you can and explain that no more can be found, then shift ctrl alt del to end the mission. Whatever you do, as long as youre honest about it and explain your reasoning in the report, then you are fine.

  2. #102
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Cigam: Losing health is only frowned upon in the plain Ghost rules, not disallowed completely. For Supreme it isn't allowed under any circumstance.
    Even so it's the principle. IMO no action that doesn't affect the environment or the disposition of AI, should be a bust of any Ghost. Disapproved of maybe, but not a bust.

  3. #103
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2019
    Location: Sweden
    Hi, I'm thinking of doing some supreme ghost in The Dark Mod. Being that the rules were developed for Thief there will be some differences to consider. I've successfully supremed two of my own missions so far (in my mind), but I wonder if I can pose the following quandaries:

    1.
    In the Dark Mod you often run in to passive NPC's that will quip when they see you. They also react much more easily to you than would an enemy. How should this be treated while ghosting, is them reacting to you a bust or does it not count since they are allied/neutral? I know some missions in Thief require you to meet somebody etc and that wouldn't count as a bust, but is that because it's required to progress / is mandated by objectives?

    2.
    Sometimes guards will react to stolen loot, and the game does not count these types of alerts as "caused by player" as in it is not reflected in your post-game stealth report. My assumption has been to treat it as a bust, but I'm not sure what to make of it. The same principle would presumably go for AI noticing open doors (which also doesn't count as a hit on stealth score)?

    3.
    A clarification on "pinch lights" and switch lights, is it not permissible to turn these out even if they are relit after? I've been working under the assumption that it's a bust, but I also feel like maybe it's not a bust unless an AI comments on the lights being out? For example; "Those damned candles always going out", "They don't pay me to relight those..." etc.

    4.
    Is moving an object and not putting it back in it's place after considered a bust to Supreme? If the item becomes unfrobable after moving it is it still a bust? Maybe only if it's mandated by an objective? In my specific example a discoverable side mission requires you to take an item and place it in a specific spot, it then becomes unfrobable and the player is able to gain extra loot. In my run I skipped it since it was optional and I figured better to skip loot than bust supreme.

    Thanks!

  4. #104
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Great questions!

    1. Neutral guards or the likes (servants, civilians, etc) usually do not count as busts, unless they see you use a weapon and clearly turn hostile. Allies that you are meeting certainly would not be a bust.

    2. Guards alerting to loot normally would bust supreme. However, this is fairly illogical as the loot being gone would necessarily be noticed sooner or later anyhow. If most of the loot in dark mod would be noticed as gone then it would all have to be skipped for supreme, which wouldnt make sense either. Tough one this.

    3. Putting out lights is not allowed for supreme, period. Ok for regular ghost though.

    4. If the item cant be put back, you are not busting supreme. If it turns unfrobable for example. It would be ok to take loot even if it means moving something that cant be reset.

    Perhaps someone else who has played more dark mod than me could chime in as well. :-)

  5. #105
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I would like to talk about rule #7 of supreme ghost:

    7. Put Everything back that can be put back: doors closed and re-locked if they are re-lockable, chests and gates closed if closable; keys returned, books/scrolls/letters returned to their original place. If items are picked off a patrolling AI, drop them back on the original patrol route or at their feet if they are a stationary AI. If the item was acquired from a niche or other similar place you canít get it back into, drop the item on the floor below it or the nearest logical place. You cannot stack boxes to gain access to an area when your stack is on the patrol path of an AI. If it can be done in a shadowed area off a patrol path or even in direct light where no one is patrolling, that is fine. But all boxes used must be put back in their original location.

    Specifically about bolded part. From this I understand that I can't leave crates in the place visible by the enemy. But it doesn't really make sense. First - enemy never alert to it. Second - there is no problem with leaving rope arrow and open doors in visible for enemies areas. You just need to grab rope arrow and close doors in the end. So my question is: Why crates are exception?

  6. #106
    New Member
    Registered: Nov 2019
    Location: Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Great questions!

    1. Neutral guards or the likes (servants, civilians, etc) usually do not count as busts, unless they see you use a weapon and clearly turn hostile. Allies that you are meeting certainly would not be a bust.

    2. Guards alerting to loot normally would bust supreme. However, this is fairly illogical as the loot being gone would necessarily be noticed sooner or later anyhow. If most of the loot in dark mod would be noticed as gone then it would all have to be skipped for supreme, which wouldnt make sense either. Tough one this.

    3. Putting out lights is not allowed for supreme, period. Ok for regular ghost though.

    4. If the item cant be put back, you are not busting supreme. If it turns unfrobable for example. It would be ok to take loot even if it means moving something that cant be reset.

    Perhaps someone else who has played more dark mod than me could chime in as well. :-)
    Thanks! Seeing as your YouTube channel is my inspiration for starting with supreme in the first place, I will gladly defer to your judgement.

    1. OK, good to know. Sometimes neutral AI will react to the player's weapon with a "Hey, watch out with that thing" or "Put that away before you hurt someone" or similar. I will treat that as a bust, but a regular courtesy greeting is not.

    2. As far as guards noticing missing loot in the Dark Mod, I can tell you as a mission author that it is an active choice that the mapper has to make on a per loot item basis. It's normally a percent chance to notice while it is within their field of view. They do not react more easily if the item is stolen while they are seeing the item either. Your case for it not being a bust is strong, logically they would notice at some point anyway. You don't just have all the valuables taken from your house etc and carry on like nothing happened.
    Doors have a binary argument "should be closed" which means the AI will always notice if the door is open when they walk by, and go into hunt mode. If the door is picked open but not left ajar they will not react. I feel like that could be a bust, or at least breaking with the spirit of supreme. I.E. The guards know someone is skulking around.
    Another difference to Thief is that AI always react to getting pick-pocketed in TDM. They will stop their patrol for a few seconds, reach for their belt and utter a phrase (for example "Oh, where did it go?" or "Did I drop it?"). This one I also feel is not a bust since the AI don't really get suspicious, they just notice it's gone.

    3. Upon reading the rules about lights again, it is quite clear. I think it's fair to call it a bust as it's supposed to add a significant challenge over regular ghost mode.

    4. Ok, that makes sense. I guess it's the same principle as with items that go in to your inventory but can't be dropped again (which is quite common in TDM). I too feel like loot is higher priority than returning every item to it's original spot.

    Awesome, well I think I am almost ready to start doing some supreme ghost reports now. I was planning on recording them with commentary on YouTube as well. I will be adding a little script that gives a pop-up message if an AI was alerted, because you sometimes get alerts from far away that you can't hear, and then you get a nasty surprise in your stealth score after the mission ends as your first and only indication. Hopefully this is allowed, looking back at what Psych0sis was suggesting on the previous page of this thread.

  7. #107
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I have a question about grabbing plans through painting in Thief 2 Demo and Life of the Party. Is grabbing this plans through painting in Karras Office shouldn't be considered a supreme bust? My problem with this painting is it doesn't behave as a normal painting, but more like safe door. In other words frobbing painting gives sound of something being locked. And painting is operated by the switch nearby pretty much like for example safe with diamonds in Bank in the same mission. Or every other secret stash in the game. That's why I think this painting should be considered as a door rather than decorative object hanging on wall.

    And that means grabbing scroll though painting should be considered engine exploit. Because let's be honest - you aren't grabbing scroll through painting, but through wall very close to the painting. That's why it should be a supreme bust.

    What do you think?

  8. #108
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jul 2008
    Yes, I would say that breaks the rules for Supreme which does not allow any engine exploits. Even if you think of it as a painting, if it's on hinges then it's not as if you could just move it aside.

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