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Thread: T2FM - A Tough Night [6 May 2020]

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by frobbin hood View Post
    Thanks. I think Raputo is lost! I've been in the tavern for about 20 mins.

    The guard is dead - so I cannot get the mask. I got him (and most of the guards) to chase me to my House - the guards there don't like intruders!
    Yes, you have to wait a long time for Raputo to show up since he has a very long route. Maybe more than 20 min. Don't worry it's not lost If the guard is dead, in the house is still the actor, Mr Orwell who patrols from inside to the outside of the house. See if you can catch him when he open the door and get inside. I will test in the game now to see what is the exact waiting time for Raputo if you stay in one place.
    Well i tested this and it's seems it's not such a good ideea to wait for him in one place since only in his mansion he stopped for 20 min. Maybe it's better to search for him again in these 4 locations: tavern, mage building, mage casino (that's next to mage building) and his mansion. And pay attention on the streets between these location maybe you will find him patrolling.


    The patrol route is set in dromed this way:
    -he starts patrolling from his mansion
    -after 10 minutes he reaches the tavern
    -he stops at the tavern for 10 minutes
    -he resume patrolling and reaches the mages casino after 4 minutes (this is not the casino in the market next to Cedric, it's another casino situated in Raputo's Quarter next to the mages place, this map has two casinos)
    -he stops at the mages casino for 10 minutes
    -he resume patrolling and reaches the mages place arter 4 minutes
    -he stops at the mages place for 10 minutes
    -he returns at his mansion in 10 minutes
    -he stops at his mansions for 20 minutes then repeat this route
    Maybe this will help you to find him sooner.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 13th May 2020 at 03:54.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Cragscleft, Bedfordshire, Eng.
    Ok, thanks. I'll wait some more.

    Sadly Mr Orwell fell in the canal, so I can't get in that way either!

  3. #53
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by frobbin hood View Post
    Ok, thanks. I'll wait some more.

    Sadly Mr Orwell fell in the canal, so I can't get in that way either!
    Unfortunately the only solution to that is to load a previous save, since is no other way to enter the Mr. Orwell house. In the future update i will have to fix that.
    About Raputo - maybe is better not to wait for him - that can be quite long. Search for him in that four locations until you find him. I gave you the patrol route in my previous post. Check first if he is in his mansion. Then go to the tavern. Then at the casino near the mages location. Next search at the mages. If you still can't locate him repeat with that. Since he is moving much slowly than Garrett and pauses at these locations you will catch him from behind.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 13th May 2020 at 09:47.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: Cragscleft, Bedfordshire, Eng.
    Ok, found Raputo at last. Thank you.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by frobbin hood View Post
    Ok, found Raputo at last. Thank you.
    I am so happy you found him and you did it at expert mode! That's no easy task.
    Found another bug from what you said earlier, my AIs don't die if you throw them in the water after you KO them. Seems they are water resistant I tried this with Mr. Orwell, street guards and more..

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2012
    Spent 2-3 hours on this mission and have yet to complete any objectives so decided to give up on this one. I admire your ambition Master of Dromed but as other have suggested making a great mission is a lot more convoluted than pure ambition. The map is just too massive which would be ok if players could work out where they are going but with so many streets looking identical that is an impossible task.

    The maps are unusable as pointed out previously but beyond that there are no significant way points in the mission that allows players to understand exactly where they are, this could be addressed with detailed maps and clear markers in game such as house names and street names, at least then players could have an idea as to which direction to go.

    Thankfully I played on hard so I may have missed the soft lock door issue mentioned above, having said that having read about that issue i was careful to sneak into buildings whenever I saw someone come out but I agree with everyone else that is a no no, not only in thief but just about every other game I know, to make a game that works you have to follow the rules both written and unwritten.

    As for for finding Raputo....well what can i say, it's completely unacceptable for you to design a mission with a primary target patrolling such a large area, it's guaranteed to p**s off players if they have to spent 2 hours chasing an AI who they have no idea where to find him.

    Having said all that you can easily make this FM a lot more player friendly by....

    1. Draw some decent maps
    2. Name every street in game and mark on map
    3. Keep Raputo in a limited area.
    4. Add furniture to both streets and buildings to make them all a lot less samey, as it is it's tedious for players to see street after street that looks the same as what they saw on the other side of the map.
    5. Beta test any future missions with experienced testers before releasing, you'd before amazed as to how much a mission can be transformed from a so-so mission into something spectacular with the input from those who know what works, and thus help you develop your mission into something that players what to play.

  7. #57
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by fortuni View Post
    Having said all that you can easily make this FM a lot more player friendly by....
    1. Draw some decent maps
    2. Name every street in game and mark on map
    play.
    Gonna jump in here fortuni and contradict you on two points, cause I feel very strongly about maps and wayfinding; feel free to yell at me!

    1. The maps are pretty decent when the palette is fixed (for example). They are too busy, and the fact that everything's a box—i.e. that connecting parts of streets have lines cutting across from the edges of boxes—makes them hard to read. Erasing unnecessary annotations and arrows; cleaning up the street parts; and making the compass roses correct and matching the in-game compass would make these maps very usable.

    2. Don't ever name every street: that's just adding more noise, and makes the map less effective. Name important streets, and the larger/longer ones that connect areas. Street names should be landmarks, and are useful when your mission doesn't otherwise have natural landmarks designed into its layout; the opera house is a good natural landmark, but most of the other named buildings in this mission are not effective. Take a look at The Haunted Cathedral to see a good example of street names used sparingly but effectively. A good alternative—or complement—to street names is making an automap that shows the general area; Ambush! is a good example to study: note how it has landmarks (the market, the graveyard) in some areas, and street names in the middle of areas where there are no strong landmarks.

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Regarding the map I think good idea would be adding map of the whole city. Of course in less detail. Some FMs are doing that when cities are really big. This helps player to figure out to what map switch next after leaving 1st area. And that was my other problem with using map. Other than barely visible maps, I had no idea to what map switch after leaving starting area. Map of the whole city would help.

    Also I think it will be good to lower time Raputo spend in 4 places. Like 10 times. Right now if player has bad luck, he can wait for Raputo to reappear in one of these places even 2 hours. That's too long.
    Last edited by Galaer; 15th May 2020 at 14:30.

  9. #59
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Regarding the map I think good idea would be adding map of the whole city. Of course in less detail. Some FMs are doing that when cities are really big. This helps player to figure out to what map switch next after leaving 1st area. And that was my other problem with using map. Other than barely visible maps, I had no idea to what map switch after leaving starting area. Map of the whole city would help.

    Also I think it will be good to lower time Raputo spend in 4 places. Like 10 times. Right now if player has bad luck, he can wait for Raputo to reappear in one of these places even 2 hours. That's too long.
    I was thinking at the same idea yesterday Galaer He spend 10 minutes in every place and in his mansion 20 minute. All his route takes 1 hour and 45 minutes way too long as you said. I was thinking about 2 minutes in every place and 5 minutes in his mansion. Fortuni is right, so many players told me they can't find Raputo. I have to find a way to fix that. Thank you all for your suggestions and feedback, i will use that in my next update

    I spent the last 3 days drawing maps, problem is not all city is covered with a map there are areas that don't have map available like Raputo's mansion and mages area. I have to draw map for these areas too. It's a good ideea to draw a map for the whole city like Galaer said, i will try to do that, even its not an easy task. An automap would be and ideal solution but it's beyond my capabilities for the moment.
    Last edited by Master of Dromed; 15th May 2020 at 17:12.

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I just started playing this mission and I am a bit confused about two things: When I entered a certain part of the building that has the opera ambient I suddenly completed the "go home" objective. I don't think that place is my home. Also the servants in that building don't care that I am there. The key that I found under the cart (which opens the gate near the cart) also unlocks a door to that same building with the opera ambient.

    After reading your last post MoD it seem that you are expecting every player to take the same approach to navigate the mission. For me it wasn't so much as too much light, but no shadows other than one tunnel (so far) and a couple of one room buildings. The players here that have been playing for 20 years are a valuable resource, and as such some seasoned players would be happy to beta test any mission to help locate bugs and help you polish the mission. I read that your brothers beta tested, but it helps to have a panel of testers because one will notice something that the others don't.

    I think that this mission is a good first start but it could have used a little more work.

  11. #61
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    I just started playing this mission and I am a bit confused about two things: When I entered a certain part of the building that has the opera ambient I suddenly completed the "go home" objective. I don't think that place is my home. Also the servants in that building don't care that I am there. The key that I found under the cart (which opens the gate near the cart) also unlocks a door to that same building with the opera ambient.

    After reading your last post MoD it seem that you are expecting every player to take the same approach to navigate the mission. For me it wasn't so much as too much light, but no shadows other than one tunnel (so far) and a couple of one room buildings. The players here that have been playing for 20 years are a valuable resource, and as such some seasoned players would be happy to beta test any mission to help locate bugs and help you polish the mission. I read that your brothers beta tested, but it helps to have a panel of testers because one will notice something that the others don't.

    I think that this mission is a good first start but it could have used a little more work.
    The building with opera house ambient is indeed Garrett's home It's marked on map as House not Home, my bad But i suppose you can't read the map because bugged and you probably play in New Dark. This building has 3 entrances, including a back door, the key you found work for all of them (bad ideea for me to lock Garrett's house.. as it looks unnatural). And yes you can find some servants in that building and other people since Garrett lives in the first floor appartment (I forgot to mention this in the story, again my bad). Even in Garrett's appartment you can find some servants, yes, he has servants it's not the poor guy from TDP anymore
    About the streets, yes it's too many light, that should be fixed in the next update, guards are very sensitive - i need to relight all the map to be more friendly to players and to provide more shadows to hide.
    Of course this mission needs more work, maybe a lot of work. Thank you for your feedback!

  12. #62
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I saw something rather peculiar: I'm not sure which building it is, but I managed to lock the opera actors inside that building, and later when I passed by that building, I could see that the opera actors were trying to walk through the door. After I ran out of the Thieve's hideout I saw the "hermit" voice actor walk through that door and walk back to the opera.

    btw home or house... either way. I didn't want to sound harsh, but there are lots of things that can be addressed.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    I saw something rather peculiar: I'm not sure which building it is, but I managed to lock the opera actors inside that building, and later when I passed by that building, I could see that the opera actors were trying to walk through the door. After I ran out of the Thieve's hideout I saw the "hermit" voice actor walk through that door and walk back to the opera.

    btw home or house... either way. I didn't want to sound harsh, but there are lots of things that can be addressed.
    I know there are many things that need to be fixed, i work making an update right now Don't know when this will be ready since there are so many things to fix, fixed almost 100 bugs and issues until now. Thanks for your feedback and I will wait to see if you can complete the mission, many people reported that is hard to find Raputo.

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I found Cedric, but later the thief killed Cedric. I would like help with finding the back door.

  15. #65
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    I found Cedric, but later the thief killed Cedric. I would like help with finding the back door.
    Not sure if i understand well.. Cedric gave you the key to the manor and the scroll? Look if you have the objective "Find Cedric in the market" checked. If yes it doesn't matter if he is dead or not.
    About the back door: you first have to enter Raputo's quarter. From the entrance in the market go north on the compass. You will find a big fake gate near a tower with a big R letter. Near the gate is a guard with a key who is turning from time to time in two directions. Knock out the guard take the key and open the door near the guard. That is the entrance in Raputo's quarter. Next you have to find Raputo in this quarter. He is patrolling on the streets with his 2 bodyguards, a swordsman and a bowman. From time to time he stops in four locations: on the tavern, on the casino near the mages area (not at the casino in the market, there are 2 casinos in this map) at the mages building and at his mansion. The back door is in case he is in the mansion otherwise you don't have to use it. You can finish this mission without entering the mansion if you find Raputo in the other places. Raputo's mansion is south east of the map on the compass.

  16. #66
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    I found his quarters, but the problem I have now is I'm on my last health shield (typical for me) and I have no KO left. Don't I need to KO Raputo?

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by john9818a View Post
    I found his quarters, but the problem I have now is I'm on my last health shield (typical for me) and I have no KO left. Don't I need to KO Raputo?
    Of course you need to KO him And with 1 shield hp left i don't think you will do it Just load a previous save and remember to save often and have many saves not just 1. I remember in the market one hammerite has a healing potion on his belt, maybe you cant return to market and steal that potion to heal then return to Raputo's quarter.

  18. #68
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    ...unless you have a gas arrow left.

    I actually had a very satisfying experience with a gas arrow in this mission. I took Raputo down with his two companions and the barman in the tavern - 4 in one shot!. It was a bit of a chance though. And I believe, the gas arrow KO did not contribute to the KO limits. Not sure if intentional or not, but I ended up with 14 knockouts and I remember I opened a save game in Dromed some time before getting Raputo to check how many I already knocked down (cause I lost track) and the 'drsknockout' variable had a value 13. (I KO'ed one more guy before Raputo).

  19. #69
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Quote Originally Posted by PinkDot View Post
    ...unless you have a gas arrow left.

    I actually had a very satisfying experience with a gas arrow in this mission. I took Raputo down with his two companions and the barman in the tavern - 4 in one shot!. It was a bit of a chance though. And I believe, the gas arrow KO did not contribute to the KO limits. Not sure if intentional or not, but I ended up with 14 knockouts and I remember I opened a save game in Dromed some time before getting Raputo to check how many I already knocked down (cause I lost track) and the 'drsknockout' variable had a value 13. (I KO'ed one more guy before Raputo).
    PinkDot you found the expert KO limit impossible? I was thinking to make the KO objective on expert optional in my update. What is your opinion?

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    I don't know. 16 sounds generous enough, except you don't know, how many humen are left there, so I took it a bit relaxed early on and knocked out some annoying guys. If not for the gas arrow thing, I would have struggled much more to complete it. BUt if you address issues mentioned by others, like streets too well lit, without places to hide, then it may be just enough to succeed. Cause once spotted, I often had to run through a number of streets to find a place to hide or escape and then I got lost, cause I couldn't find a way back in that maze... So, if hiding is not that difficult, then you wouldn't need to KO as many of them.
    Also, since I'm on it - the KO limit should not apply to Raputo I think, as he needs to be KO'ed anyway. Unless you state it clearly, that he is included in the limit, but then you may raise the limit a little bit.

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Texas
    Yeah the gas arrow KO don't count against the total. I can understand Garrett not wanting to KO too many because (in the manor, building etc. ) would get suspicious, but only in a story. The AI probably would not actually get suspicious. I remember one of the OM had a KO limit but that wasn't a city full of AI. This mission has 114 AI and I don't know how many are rats/spiders or AI off the map for behind the scenes uses, but I ask myself would Garrett really limit himself when it comes to KO. I'm always happy to KO every AI in the mission, and in a big city a lot of excess time is spent running back and forth, and for me it would be less time consuming if I didn't have to ghost everywhere. Having just one health shield isn't really a problem as long as I don't get hit by anything.

  22. #72
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2020
    Location: Bucharest
    Thank you for your feedback guys, obviously navigating in such a big mission with 114 AI with a KO limit is too much. I will set the KO limit objective as optional in the update. Since this mission cannot be ghosted (obviously because is a kidnap mission) maybe ghosters will find a challenge in this.

  23. #73
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2003
    Location: Frederikssund, Denmark
    Master of Dromed
    Thanks for the mission.
    Nice gameplay.
    Very confusing and unlogical map.

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