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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    I have a friend working on a custom game.exe that alerts the player when an AI on the map reaches first alert (or 2nd for regular ghosting, obviously)

    Example:


    Just curious if anyone would be interested in this? It's coming along slowly, and it's pretty annoying because he's trying to account for ALL versions of thief 1 and 2 (olddark, and every damn version of newdark possible)

  2. #77
    Dóttirin klęšist oft móšur möttli
    Registered: Apr 2015
    game.exe? Nobody is interested in a .exe. A custom .exe would cause a mess.
    Last edited by Unna Oertdottir; 26th Oct 2019 at 11:30.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Thank you for speaking for everyone, Unna. Glad to have the Official Forum Spokesperson™ clarify what the people who I'm asking (which I assume wouldn't even include you, how generous of you!) would like or would not like.

    Also, I was just generally posing the question as I was thinking of creating an actual outside program, something like Statsman for the Hitman games. And since I fucked up on the image, here is the example:



  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Ireland/Poland
    How does your friend modify the game .exe? Is this a modification of the latest ND executable?

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2015
    If the intention is simply to notify the player when an AI reaches certain alertness, this can be done without requiring a modified executable.

    This archive, when paired with a NewDark install, should provide this functionality. I imagine something similar can be done with OldDark, though it would likely require a modified gamesys since it does not support dbmods.

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax64 View Post
    If the intention is simply to notify the player when an AI reaches certain alertness, this can be done without requiring a modified executable.

    This archive, when paired with a NewDark install, should provide this functionality. I imagine something similar can be done with OldDark, though it would likely require a modified gamesys since it does not support dbmods.
    I figured something else would be possible and more preferable, as we only went into it by hex editing since that's what we're comfortable with (and wanted to use it as a learning opportunity, anyway). I'm sure this is something the community should start working on, perhaps? I'd imagine everyone would love the opportunity to /actually/ know if they alerted some of the harder to understand enemies. Well, unless more Official Forum Spokespersons jump to conclusions again.

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Im on the fence about whether I would use this. It would remove the charm of ghosting and break immersion quite heavily. How would Garrett know hes caught, besides hearing the alert? Getting a notice on screen would basically mean you wouldnt never need to listen for alerts any longer. On the other hand, for lets plays it would definitely serve a purpose. Success or failure claims would be more absolute.

    I agree with Unna though, modifying the .exe sounds like it could get ugly.

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Soon I'm gonna ghost Keeper of the Prophecies and I would like to ask about poison. I remember that in 3 missions Garrett is poisoned and lose gradually health. Is this a supreme bust? Is grabbing and using healing potions in this situation a supreme bust too? And if yes, is all that also bust of regular ghost?

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    I'd say it busts Supreme but not Ghost. Taking damage and using potions is still allowed, even though it's a last resort.

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Is taking damage from poison any bust?

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    IMO, damage is damage, it doesn't matter where it comes from. For Supreme, it could be excused if it's tied to the objective, but as far as I recall, it isn't in that mission.

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I have thought about this mission before and how it would affect the ghost rules, especially mission 2 Hallucinations. I have played it but not ghosted it. Since you start the mission already losing health regularly, i dont think it would be busting any mode. Does it count in the stats as damage? Even if it does, id say youre fine. I would even argue drinking health potions is fine, though the amount would certainly need to be reported. I know it goes against the rules, but here the conditions have been changed up front by the author and that warrants a review. But that is surely debatable. Good discussion though.

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    I understand the reasoning, but I still don't agree with it. I don't think the rules should be adjusted in accordance with new gameplay mechanics introduced in fan missions. Just call losing health and taking potions one big bust to Supreme and deal with it. As far as I remember, that mission is not ghostable anyway, so it would probably not even matter.

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Except Insurrection has been ghosted. From what I remembered Vanguard excused poison damage as something not done by his actions. And the whole run was like 5 min long. I think for supreme I just gonna forbid using healing potions and just like Vanguard do this mission and the next poison missions as fast as possible. I also need to be careful to not alert anyone while Garrett is shouting from pain.

    Also a supreme ghost question about Enterprise. There is a little clock, which is loot. And it's ticking, but after I'm taking it, it stopped ticking. Is that a supreme bust?
    Last edited by Galaer; 17th Nov 2019 at 07:31.

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Regarding the clock, it's not a bust. You can't remove lights, but there is no rule about removing sounds.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Am I the only one who thinks that the rule against losing health is an arbitrary rule that has nothing to do with the philosophy of ghosting?

    The other rules about property damage and no loadout purchasing and re-locking doors etc, all fit in with the philosophy of minimising your changing of and impact on the world,, leaving it as close to how you found it as possible, and minimising the evidence that you were ever there.

    Stubbing your toe in a basement miles away from anyone is as irrelevant as walking on marble when there is no-one to here you.

    Yes I know some will justify it as increassing the challenge, but to my mind you shouldn't have arbitrary rules that have nothing to do with being a ghost (or else why not introduce time limits and forbid running, jumping, and swimming just to make it harder?)

    If losing health is to be mentioned at all, it should be mentioned the same way the use of potions is, ie frowned upon but allowed.

    If I was a real life master thief think I'd rather take a bit of pain falling after retrieving a rope arrow, than risk going past AI even if I was successful in getting past them.

    Just wondering what others thought about this seemingly odd-one-out rule.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Is disarming mines and then putting them back allowed in supreme ghost?

  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Cigam: Losing health is only frowned upon in the plain Ghost rules, not disallowed completely. For Supreme it isn't allowed under any circumstance.

    Galaer: Removing sounds is not a bust. It's not even mentioned in the rules. Neither is disarming mines. That would be the same as picking a lock on a door, which is allowed for all modes. If you pick the mine up, you'd have to put it back unless you use it for something and it blows up in the process.

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Thanks, klatremus. I was actually worried that disarming mines is more like disabling watchers with a switch and that's why it could be forbidden.

  20. #95
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jul 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Soon I'm gonna ghost Keeper of the Prophecies and I would like to ask about poison. I remember that in 3 missions Garrett is poisoned and lose gradually health. Is this a supreme bust? Is grabbing and using healing potions in this situation a supreme bust too? And if yes, is all that also bust of regular ghost?
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    I have thought about this mission before and how it would affect the ghost rules, especially mission 2 Hallucinations. I have played it but not ghosted it. Since you start the mission already losing health regularly, i dont think it would be busting any mode. Does it count in the stats as damage? Even if it does, id say youre fine. I would even argue drinking health potions is fine, though the amount would certainly need to be reported. I know it goes against the rules, but here the conditions have been changed up front by the author and that warrants a review. But that is surely debatable. Good discussion though.
    I think this situation is covered by Rule 12 since this is a scripted event that the player has no control over, and is not a result of the player being seen or heard. Rule 12 does leave this open to a consensus of the community on a case by case basis. I'd say it doesn't bust a ghost, even Supreme, though that last is worth discussion, I suppose.

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    I have a question. I'm playing Nightcrawler mission and at the start screen I need to get 4000 loot, after starting mission this change to 5000. This is known bug. Can I get 4000 and skip this mission or do I need to get 5000 and finish this mission normally?

    Edit: Nevermind, I decided to do both versions.
    Last edited by Galaer; 6th Dec 2019 at 14:55.

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    You need to do whatever it says in the objectives during the mission, not whatever it says before. Sometimes objectives stated in the loadout screen disappear in the mission. Then you dont need to do them.

  23. #98
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Yes, but this loot objective bug has been mentioned in the thread. Author wanted to fix that, be he never did that.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    There are many bugs in missions that authors would like to fix. Whatever is in the final release of the mission is what counts.

  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Wait a moment. Are you saying that I should be playing these buggy missions without dml fixes, because they were made by someone else, probably without any consultation with original author? If that's what you mean, then few missions I ghosted can't be finished. For example first mission of Shadow of Doubt. Without dml fixes "Going to Embassy" objective is being completed only when I'm on street near Embassy and gets uncheck when I'm leaving this area. This means there is no way to trigger Hammerites at the end and finish this mission.

    So with Nightcrawler I had dilemma if I should finish in the way intended by author (by getting only 4000 loot) or by current buggy way (getting 5000 loot). I know what you want to say, but I feel like the intended solution is better, because I recognize author's intent.

    Also I would like to ask about a bit different situation. Objectives before starting the mission shows getting 4000 loot. After starting it changes into 6000 loot. And there is only 5000 loot in this mission. What in this situation?

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