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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #701
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    That is not true. A very important part of the banner's functionality is to hide the entrance. When it's cut, you can clearly see the entrance so the functionality is drastically changed. Also, cutting banner is one of the 3 examples specifically used in the rules, along with breaking crates and bashing in doors.
    Yes, banner is in rules, because in OM's it blocks your path. As for covering entrance you can see it from the side, you can lean through banner and see passage. And AI see perfectly fine through objects.

    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Let me ask you this, Galaer. What if you were given a tool like a crowbar that made you able to bend the middle bar of the prison door without cutting it. After that you could bend it out in order to leave and then bend it back to make it look like it was normal. Would you then say it is property damage? You have compromised the integrity of the cell door just the same, by weakening the metal enough in order to leave. This is a good discussion to have and I appreciate your input. My point is that I don't think the makers of the rules thought about situations where you can reverse the damage, or where you question whether there is real damage done even. Is weakening something real damage?
    Yes, if you wouldn't cut metal bar and bend it with crowbar, it wouldn't count as damage property, because you can bend it back and integrity of cell door is preserved. But when you cut metal bar it's integrity with the rest of cell door isn't preserved (because of the cut). It's like there are 2 ways of removing wooden planks with crowbar: you can break them in half and that's a damage property. But you can also pry up the plank, so it will be removed without damaging it's integrity. If you would be prison warden and see this cell door, would you do nothing about that and say it works the same like other cell doors? Or would you rather buy new cell door?

    Also you count damage property only if it's affects functionality and it's big enough in size. But there is nothing about that in rules. It actually focus on visual aspect of change. Here is direct quote: "No property damage" means no visible damage. Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before." See, main focus of the rule is visible damage. Functionality part was added for invisible for the eye damage (bashed doors). Since this rule is more explained via real life logic than other rules, I will give you some examples from real life.

    Not long time ago I wanted to kill a fly. It sit down on lid of my laundry basket. I wanted to kill it, I pressed too much on the lid and small plastik fell off from it. Functionality of the lid didn't change it. You can still open and close basket. But when my parents see that, verdict was clear: it's broken and it doesn't look good. You need to by new basket.

    And about painting. Imagine someone would make graffiti on painting. It's functionality doesn't change, but anyone will tell you that this piece of art is destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    put a question mark after both of his statements, indicating that he is uncertain and requesting confirmation.
    He's waiting for confirmation, so he will get it. I agree with him. I believe that rules want to prevent act of vandalism that later leads to hiding evidence of damage. This thief isn't vandal. That's what you do with cell door. At first glance damage isn't visible, but if you look carefully this cut is visible.

    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    But we are not making exceptions. Flash bombs are never even mentioned in the rules, Galaer. The only thing mentioned is if enemies alert. If they don't alert, it is not a bust. Changing an enemy's ability to see you if it doesn't illicit a visible or audible reaction of any kind is not a bust.
    Yes, there is no rule about flashbombs. So is about gas equipment. Because of that at some point dafydd excused usage of gas equipment in his Sisterhood of Azura 1:Esteridge report. His reasons were:

    A) it's not mentioned in the rules (not even now, I checked it).
    B) it doesn't count as knockout in the stats.
    C) it doesn't deal any damage in stats.

    Because of that he claimed success. Afterwards was small discussion proving that gas equipment is forbidden, though status of report never changed to say it was failure. Gas equipment is one of unspoken rules. And the same goes with flashbombs - it's again unspoken rules, but we know we shouldn't use under any circumstances.

    About eel - I went to play this mission to check if it's true. Indeed at first I didn't notice change of it's behavior, but if I looked closer I noticed change. So eel has it's electrical attack. When I went close behind it, so eel didn't notice me, electrical attack still got activated. I got damaged, so I swam up and noticed that despite attack eel didn't notice me. So this attack isn't connected to being seen or smelled by eel, because if it would be the case, eel would go into attack mode after electrical attack. But it was completely unalerted. So this attack is based on proximity. Why am I mentioning it? Because burrick pee not only blinds(or not allow it to smell enemy if you prefer) eel, but also disables it's attack. And that's illicit change of behavior.
    Last edited by Galaer; 21st Aug 2022 at 08:01.

  2. #702
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by Cigam View Post
    But are there any other accepted excused busts of this kind? Would turning the Watcher back on reverse the bust of turning it off? Vomiting up the speed potion (if any FM has tht mechanic) undo the bust of drinking it? Turning the light back on excuse turning it off?
    But those are not fair examples to compare to. 1) They are knowingly reversible. The rulemakers knew you can turn back on cameras and turn on lights again, but they still made the rule. Property damage you are not supposed to be able to reverse. 2) The point of those rules are to not take advantage of their effects. That is not the case with property damage. It is an honorable rule that a good thief doesn't destroy other people's property, which is why I argue what matters is its condition when you end the mission. 3) Those rules you mention are all Supreme violations, not regular ghost ones.

    But ok, I will accept the majority vote and change Heartcliff to a failure, plus mention it in my next video. I am not convinced, far from it. It seems very strange to me that the property damage rule doesnt apply to you pushing out a whole wall section in Sound of a Burrick, yet making a small cut in a metal bar, which you can bend back, and which you can make unfrobbable so it is no longer compromised, is not allowed. For me, logic crashes there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    Yes, there is no rule about flashbombs. So is about gas equipment. Because of that at some point dafydd excused usage of gas equipment in his Sisterhood of Azura 1:Esteridge report. His reasons were:

    A) it's not mentioned in the rules (not even now, I checked it).
    B) it doesn't count as knockout in the stats.
    C) it doesn't deal any damage in stats.

    Because of that he claimed success. Afterwards was small discussion proving that gas equipment is forbidden, though status of report never changed to say it was failure. Gas equipment is one of unspoken rules. And the same goes with flashbombs - it's again unspoken rules, but we know we shouldn't use under any circumstances.
    Rule #2 says: "...no knockouts or kills of any kind are allowed, whether or not they show up in the final stats..." This is no unspoken rule as you put it. Gassing enemies goes against this rule, period. I have changed dafydd's report in the list to not claim success. I just never read his report is all. Flash bombs have no comparison to this situation, because they don't cause a knockout.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaer View Post
    About eel - I went to play this mission to check if it's true. Indeed at first I didn't notice change of it's behavior, but if I looked closer I noticed change. So eel has it's electrical attack. When I went close behind it, so eel didn't notice me, electrical attack still got activated. I got damaged, so I swam up and noticed that despite attack eel didn't notice me. So this attack isn't connected to being seen or smelled by eel, because if it would be the case, eel would go into attack mode after electrical attack. But it was completely unalerted. So this attack is based on proximity. Why am I mentioning it? Because burrick pee not only blinds(or not allow it to smell enemy if you prefer) eel, but also disables it's attack. And that's illicit change of behavior.
    Not doing anything is not a change in behavior. In fact, I think 'illicit a reaction' is a better way of describing it. If there is no visible or audible reaction from an enemy, nobody would claim a bust to anything you do, as long as it doesn't break any other rule. Just because the eel doesn't do anything, you are claiming it is a bust, which is funny to me because the whole point of ghosting is not to have enemies react to you. If your argument holds true, then if you douse 10 torches in a room and the room goes from light to dark so you can sneak through it unseen, then you say it is a bust because the guard is now having a change in behavior because he is not reacting when he normally would? Absolutely not.

    I am done discussing the flash bomb situation. I have made my point clear.

  3. #703
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    But ok, I will accept the majority vote and change Heartcliff to a failure, plus mention it in my next video. I am not convinced, far from it. It seems very strange to me that the property damage rule doesnt apply to you pushing out a whole wall section in Sound of a Burrick, yet making a small cut in a metal bar, which you can bend back, and which you can make unfrobbable so it is no longer compromised, is not allowed. For me, logic crashes there.
    The difference is very simple. You cannot destroy wall or metal bar with your bare hands. If this would be possible it would imply that these objects were damaged before. But you damaged metal bar with metal file not with bare hands. But if you feel better, I don't mind calling pushing wall in Sound of a Burrick damage property. I prefer this over excusing damage property just because of it's small size.
    Last edited by Galaer; 21st Aug 2022 at 14:59.

  4. #704
    In TDM, lighting and extinguishing your own lantern wouldn't count as a bust for Supreme Ghost, would it?

  5. #705
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    No, you are allowed to turn on lights, and if you do, you need to turn them off for Supreme, if possible.

  6. #706
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    When it comes to a mission like Ruins of Originia 3 that has an objective to kill everything but only on Expert, would it be less of a bust to play it on a lower difficulty instead? I mean, it would still be a bust, but at least the run would be much cleaner.

  7. #707
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    marbleman, If the objective is to kill everything, why would that be a bust? Unless if you are talking about unavoidable alerts etc. that result.

    If so, then I think My thoughts here would be that Not playing on expert isn't even Ghost is it, let alone a Ghost-bust?

    I think I would prefer to Ghost a lower percentage of a mission, but to still have ghosted as much of it as I could have, than to Ghost 0% of the mission by not playing it on Expert?

  8. #708
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Originia 3 requires you to kill all the burricks, I believe, which cannot be done without alerting many of them, so it forces busts almost by design. I wouldn't say playing on a lower difficulty is ghosting 0% of it, but it's a pretty severe bust. I would say if a person chooses to do that rather than inflict damage and multiple other busts, that would be totally legitimate as long as it is reported. Galaer did something similar when ghosting Running Interference on lower difficulties, because there you don't have a knockout objective, which actually makes that playthrough a lot harder. However, the burricks that are alerted in Originia are also getting killed, which is a lot better than alerting enemies that remain alive.

  9. #709
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    However, the burricks that are alerted in Originia are also getting killed, which is a lot better than alerting enemies that remain alive.
    Really? I always thought alerting enemies is more preferable than KOing or killing them.

  10. #710
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I mean if there is an objective to kill enemies and you have to alert enemies in the process, it is better that the ones you alert also fall under the killing objective (as in you have to kill them also), than you alerting other enemies too that does not fall under that objective. I'm not sure if I'm making myself clear here. I probably worded myself horribly before.

    If you have to alert enemies, it is better to alert ones that end up dead, than ones that don't.

  11. #711
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Yeah I get what you mean now.

  12. #712
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Just edited Ghost rule #5 and Supreme rule #12 to include information about enemy suicides and infighting, as discussed back in May. Please let me know if you see any glaring mistakes.
    Here
    Last edited by klatremus; 6th Oct 2022 at 00:21.

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