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Thread: GameStop and criminal behaviour

  1. #51
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    I might have missed it, but when have you spoken out about average people's retirement accounts taking a hit when hedge funds with massive amounts of capital manipulate share prices? When have you complained when predator private equity firms destroy companies and put tons of people out of work just so they can make a few bucks by flipping the brand name or selling it to a competitor?

    As soon as we have a case of individual investors coming together to take advantage of a maleficent hedge fund, here you are alleging criminal behavior and worrying about those hedge fund investors who might have lost some money.

  2. #52
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Berghem Haven
    Problem is "law" (->criminal) and "morality" are 2 VERY different things.
    Here the "criminal" part is not present yet.....wait for the next moves

  3. #53
    BANNED
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I might have missed it, but when have you...
    I don't have to lay out all my values before speaking about something related, nor criticise every single thing that needs criticising. What gatekeeping bs is this, lol?

    As soon as we have a case of individual investors coming together to take advantage of a maleficent hedge fund, here you are alleging criminal behavior and worrying about those hedge fund investors who might have lost some money.
    No, the criminal behaviour is being carried out by the platforms that have stopped individual investors continuing to buy GME (and other) stocks, whilst still allowing the hedge funds to trade and get themselves out of trouble. If that isn't market manipulation what is? I've heard their excuses and I don't buy it.

    You really do love jumping to those conclusions.

  4. #54
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2010
    Location: A Former Forest
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    ...
    You really do love jumping to those conclusions.
    That seems to be the case all around this chat site, but then I am jumping to conclusions myself with that statement... Happy 2021! Oh, and I did not buy any of the shorted stocks, but I know a few people that did and made a tiny amount of $. They got in late, but still made some dough.

    And yes, I think it is collusion that online brokers shut down trading to protect the hedge fund people. You play the game and game the system? You get to suffer the consequences if the game turns against you. Itís only fair.

  5. #55
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Ireland was deeply religious, but not so much any more.

    The Catholic church was involved in too many scandals, and people realised that they had been enduring suffering on behalf of principles that the clergy themselves were not even adhering to.

    The abortion referendum - the first one - was one of the last things that the religious did when they were at their strength. They forced extremely draconian laws into the constitution, so no future (more progressive) government could change them without another referendum. Just over those 35 years, the support for those laws dropped from over 2/3 to under 1/3.


    Also, as an aside, I think the USA is the only country in the world who treats their flag as a religion, except maybe somewhere like North Korea.

  6. #56
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Location: Land of the crazy
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    I don't have to lay out all my values before speaking about something related, nor criticise every single thing that needs criticising. What gatekeeping bs is this, lol?
    You attempt to lay out your values all the time, unsolicited, including in this thread. I'm a lefty, I'm a lefty, etc. But I've noticed that in thread after thread, you always find yourself on the right/conservative/authoritarian side of the issue.

    And here you are... never showing an interest in stock price manipulation until some hedge funds took it up the behind, for once, and suddenly now it's a problem.

  7. #57
    verbose douchebag
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Lyon, France
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    You really do love jumping to those conclusions.
    If multiple people are jumping to conclusions, maybe you weren't clear enough in the first place?

  8. #58
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    I'm a lefty, I'm a lefty, etc. But I've noticed that in thread after thread, you always find yourself on the right/conservative/authoritarian side of the issue.
    The term you're looking for is "liberal".

    "Five degrees to the left of centre in good times, five degrees to the right of centre if it affects them personally."

    (Though managing to defend both fascists and hedge fund managers in a single week is almost impressive.)

  9. #59
    BANNED
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Quote Originally Posted by heywood View Post
    You attempt to lay out your values all the time, unsolicited, including in this thread. I'm a lefty, I'm a lefty, etc. But I've noticed that in thread after thread, you always find yourself on the right/conservative/authoritarian side of the issue.

    And here you are... never showing an interest in stock price manipulation until some hedge funds took it up the behind, for once, and suddenly now it's a problem.
    Wow.

    I can lay out my values if I want. I don't have to address EVERY military conflict in the world before I give an opinion on what's going on in, say, Yemen.

    How am I on the "right/conservative/authoritarian side" when the criminality I'm talking about is from the trading platforms please?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nameless Voice View Post
    (Though managing to defend both fascists and hedge fund managers in a single week is almost impressive.)
    Oh?

    Where have I don't either? Exactly where. Hedge fund managers and fascists, please?

  10. #60
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Well, our whole discussion seems to be around "what is enough to not be called a capitalist or a conservative". I threw the word "ultra" in, to make sure I think the Democrats are not even close to the middle or even the left. If you compare their actions to European progressive parties. Or if you compare their politics to politics through the last 100 years.
    Yes, that's precisely the source of our disagreement -- in my opinion Democrats are a right-leaning centrist party with a significant progressive wing, whereas you claim they are a far right party not very different from the Republicans. Democrats moved significantly to the right at the end of 80s, starting with the New Democrats (or Clinton Democrats) when they latched onto Reagan's neoliberalism. You can see something similar happening with Thatcher and New Labour's Third Way as an eerie parallel to the US. But I would argue that they stayed centrists during Obama and now have slided even more back towards the centre thanks to people like Bernie and Warren.

    As for why there has been little change, (and the little there has been has almost entirely been due to Democrats), one part if it is simply that Democrats are not very good at this. If this was in any other place, they'd be the runt of the litter, but in the US they manage to look good simply by virtue of not being Republicans. They are bad at messaging and holistically bad at politics. Every now and then they get a superstar charismatic leader like Clinton or Obama, but most of the time they get their ass handed to them. But, most importantly, they are playing on a tilted field -- the Senate structurally favours Republicans, gerrymandering favours Republicans on a more local level, and being a big tent party inherently makes it more difficult to get things done. Changing things requires a lot of effort whereas opposing change is much easier. And Republicans are very, very good at obstructing things. And that's in addition to the usual pressure from lobbyists and big money interests.

    If Democrats wanted to even do something as simple as to proclaim that puppies are cute and cuddly, they'd face fierce, relentless opposition from a sizeable amount of Republicans with a new-found anti-dog position, they wouldn't get a single Republican to vote with them (but a couple of them might make non-committal noises and Susan Collins might furrow her brow at some Republican leader claiming that all puppies should be killed), and they would be endlessly taken to task by the news media how they are are weak on the domestic animal issue.

  11. #61
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    in my opinion Democrats are a right-leaning centrist party with a significant progressive wing, whereas you claim they are a far right party not very different from the Republicans.
    I've never said that. Not here, not anywhere. I've never said they are "not very different". I've even started to call the Republicans fascists.

    But from a purely economic standpoint, from a theoretical standpoint, they are indeed not so different. In practice the Republicans are a lot worse, because they are hypocrites. Many are (semi) corrupt. But the result, if you ignore the excesses, is not that different. No limitations for Wallstreet. Invading other countries for economic gain. Support the Saudies. Support the oil-industry. Oppose unions. Support globalization. You see the differences, I see the similarities.

    Biden has the presidency now. And congress and the house. Now is the time to see what Democrats really stand for. Let's talk again a year from now.

  12. #62
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Fuck Jimmy Kimmel.


    On a serious note. Options have expiration dates.
    The wiki-page suggests that: "Typically, exchange-traded option contracts expire according to a
    pre-determined calendar. For instance, for U.S. exchange-listed equity stock option contracts,
    the expiration date is always the Saturday that follows the third Friday of the month".

    Do any of you understand this in more detail? What are the expiration-dates for the GME options? I assume that until the last expiration-date of the last options-contract, people are gonna hold. I'm curious to know what that date is.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 1st Feb 2021 at 11:37.

  13. #63
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    "I never said X! But, indeed X."

  14. #64
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    I've never said that. Not here, not anywhere. I've never said they are "not very different". I've even started to call the Republicans fascists.

    But from a purely economic standpoint, from a theoretical standpoint, they are indeed not so different. In practice the Republicans are a lot worse, because they are hypocrites. Many are (semi) corrupt. But the result, if you ignore the excesses, is not that different. No limitations for Wallstreet. Invading other countries for economic gain. Support the Saudies. Support the oil-industry. Oppose unions. Support globalization. You see the differences, I see the similarities.

    Biden has the presidency now. And congress and the house. Now is the time to see what Democrats really stand for. Let's talk again a year from now.
    It's not that I see differences, it's that the differences are large enough in my opinion to not lump both parties together as pretty much equally conservative and equally capitalist.

    If Democrats support there being no limitations on Wall Street, then why did they pass Dodd-Frank? You might argue that it's not enough, but it has been the subject of intense lobbying to repeal it and Republicans have tried to repeal it ever since. If the agenda of Republicans and Democrats is essentially the same, why did Republicans do their best to cripple the CFPB and have major rollbacks and revisions of Obama rules and regulations to protect consumers? If the Democrats are the ones against regulation, why do they keep passing environmental regulations and Republicans keep trying to slash them?

    As for unions, I would argue that not only are the Democrats not opposing unions, they are actually paying too much attention to them, leaving the rest of the workers in the dust. All you could hear during the campaign was union this and union that. You can't walk five feet in US politics without hearing something about "good-paying union jobs". But the fact is that the unions are a part of a shrinking labour aristocracy that's losing power. As far as jobs are concerned, the US is first and foremost a service industry and manufacturing simply pays less and less of a role. And you might chalk that up to globalisation, but the fact is that the vast majority of these jobs are lost to automation and mechanisation, not trade or outsourcing.

    As for the oil industry, Democrats are the ones who want to to phase it out, Republicans are the ones who talk about supporting it and even expanding it. Let's reminisce for a moment -- who was it who promised to bring coal back and who was it who gave out drilling permits like candy at Halloween? Conversely, who is placing a moratorium on oil and gas drilling on federal land? I'll give you a hint: https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/20...n-federal-land

    As for invading other countries and support for Saudis, yes, Democrats are part of the establishment and have not shied away from continuing and furthering US imperialism, that much is true. However, the only meaningful opposition to it has also come from the Democrats. It was the Democrats who tried to patch over relations with Iran over the objections of Saudis, for example, and it has been Democrats condemning the Saudi-led invasion into Yemen. Nearly all of the Republicans supported attacking Iraq over flimsy excuses whereas less than half of Democrats did so. And look if you can spot a pattern in who opposed it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...f_the_Iraq_War

    As for globalisation, that is such a big topic, you could fill a Trump Dump sized thread with it and it would only be a starting point. Democrats have eagerly tried to take advantage of globalisation, yes. But it's not like anyone can put the globalisation genie back in the bottle. The best we can do is to try to counter the problems it causes.
    Last edited by Starker; 1st Feb 2021 at 22:40.

  15. #65
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrian View Post
    "I never said X! But, indeed X."
    THE REPUBLICANS ARE BIG BRIGHT RED.
    The Democrats are different, but they are stll red. Not green or blue.

    Starker and Pyrian: don't you see the differences? The Democrats are not as red as the Republicans. They are clearly green.

    @Starker, I think we don't really have different opinions. Our differences are mostly that you don't want to put the same label on the Democrats as we put on the Republicans. I get why. Yes, they are different. But in my eyes the fact that the Democrats are more moderate capitalists than the Republicans, doesn't make them no capitalists anymore. The fact that some Democrats have more progressive ideas (Bernie, AOC, etc), does't change the fact that Democratic majority and Democratic Presidents have been relatively conservative. Relative to the rest of the world.

    Maybe I should't have used the word "ultra".

    Again, Biden has now the power to make changes. Let's see what he does. Action speaks louder than words. I truly hope Biden will prove me wrong.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 2nd Feb 2021 at 04:22.

  16. #66
    BANNED
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    I also think you're splitting hairs a little bit on this.

    They're all super capitalist, it's just the Dems aren't quite as insane as the Republicans.

  17. #67
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    More than that, though, I think that part of the argument is that reducing things to just one simplistic measure and then saying, "They're all more or less the same. The difference is one of degree only." isn't particularly adequate.

  18. #68
    BANNED
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    From a European perspective it's a bit weird though, isn't it?

    It's like comparing chocolate cake and victoria sponge. If European politics is victoria sponge, and US politics is chocolate cake then the Democrats are Fudge Cake and the Republicans are Black Forest Gateau.

  19. #69
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by SubJeff View Post
    They're all super capitalist, it's just the Dems aren't quite as insane as the Republicans.
    Exactly my point.

  20. #70
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    who gave out drilling permits like candy at Halloween?
    Joe Biden and his administration?

    Biden Admin Issues 30+ Drilling Permits

  21. #71
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    I think it's safe to assume that until there actually is a moratorium announced on this, the spice will continue to flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
    Starker and Pyrian: don't you see the differences? The Democrats are not as red as the Republicans. They are clearly green.

    @Starker, I think we don't really have different opinions. Our differences are mostly that you don't want to put the same label on the Democrats as we put on the Republicans. I get why. Yes, they are different. But in my eyes the fact that the Democrats are more moderate capitalists than the Republicans, doesn't make them no capitalists anymore. The fact that some Democrats have more progressive ideas (Bernie, AOC, etc), does't change the fact that Democratic majority and Democratic Presidents have been relatively conservative. Relative to the rest of the world.

    Maybe I should't have used the word "ultra".

    Again, Biden has now the power to make changes. Let's see what he does. Action speaks louder than words. I truly hope Biden will prove me wrong.
    I'm not sure what you're getting at now. At no point have I claimed the Democrats are blue or green or not capitalists. The opposite, in fact. Multiple times. But, you're saying that they are extremely red, extremely conservative, extreme capitalists, etc., which I simply don't agree with. Not even a majority of them are at the extreme end of right-wing politics. As I said, in my view the party as a whole is centre right, with a significant progressive wing. As in, significantly more to the centre than Republicans. And their conservative wing that can actually be compared with Republicans, the Blue Dog Democrats, is very much in the minority.

    As for Biden's power to make changes, I think you might be underestimating what can be achieved by executive order. And 50 senators in the Senate is a hell of a tightrope to walk in a party as diverse as the Democrats. Say what you want about McConnell, he is a master at what he does. And as shrewd a politician as Schumer is, he's no McConnell.

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