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Thread: Ghost rules discussion

  1. #426
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I would not use T3 as a reference for anything pertaining to Thief1-2 or TDM. I agree with you marbleman that the stealth tool should be referenced and encouraged (even strongly so) in the rules. The main reason being alerts are so difficult to detect that you dont want to get caught without knowing it. Thief is different because alerts are easier and you get no alert round up in stats. Since you are forced to see it in TDM, this tool makes it so there are no surprise busts at the end. I also agree that although the stats screen shouldn't be deciding matters, the player shouldn't use that as a reason to excuse busts. That's why the stealth tool is good, because it forces the player to double check and track his progress during gameplay, making him more aware of his surroundings, which a ghost should be.

    Questions: Can you not eavesdrop on doors in TDM? And is there no way to see the max pickpocket count in the stats? Is there no secret count?

  2. #427
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Eavesdropping works. I did that earlier today in fact. You can't hear everything as clearly as in Thief, but leaning into doors helps quite a bit.

    By default, there's no max pickpocket count. There is also no lockpick and secret count at all. Maybe it's something an author can add, but I'm not sure.

  3. #428
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    In Thief, when you haven't heard anything, it usually means there were no alerts because they are so easy to detect. This is not a case in TDM. I don't agree that you can ghost a mission, get a few alerts on the stat screen and go "Well I didn't hear anything so I'm good \_(ツ)_/"
    Whether it is easier to miss alerts in one game over another, It can still happen in both. You can't really legislate for it?

    And unless if the stealth report gives specific details of the alert, it cannot be used as proof either way. It could have been scripted, a response to another AI, or something else excused (such as if people agree with discounting loot-alerts). Or just a plain old bug.

    I mean, if you allow alerts from sleeping enemies as has been suggested, you may assume that this is what caused the cited alert, but for all you know, you might have missed a distant guard and that was the cause? Or a bug, again.

    I appreciate the preference for a "clean" stats screen, but they aren't absolute proof.
    Thief 3 is its own game with its own mechanics. I wouldn't use it to justify anything in TDM, or Thief for that matter. If a Thief 3 ever gets its ghosting community, they might add clarifications allowing these kinds of alerts even though they might not allowed in TDM (it's still to be decided).
    Fair enough. But let's just say that the reasoning I have heard makes sense to me. The spirit of the rules are not about preventing the taking of loot per se, and they do mention that the ghost can provide evidence of their exploits via the loot they have taken.

  4. #429
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    No, TDM only counts alerts caused by the player. Scripted sequences do not count for anything.

  5. #430
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2013
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    Thief is different because alerts are easier and you get no alert round up in stats. Since you are forced to see it in TDM, this tool makes it so there are no surprise busts at the end. I also agree that although the stats screen shouldn't be deciding matters, the player shouldn't use that as a reason to excuse busts.
    I think the OMs did have a stat for number of enemies alerted?

    I don't think we are talking about excusing busts. We are talking about the situation where you ghosted a mission (in as far as you can detect according to what happened in game, and what there was evidence of), but then the final stats screen says that there was an alert.

    All I am saying is, is that given the potential for bugs, or alerts that would have been allowed, why enforce people to become enslaved to this.

    The rules re the OMs make no requirement for specified stat values? They even mention that these shouldn't be taken as proof of anything. I mean if they do say you lost health or an AI was alerted, and you cannot remember either happenning, then you might redo the mission just in case it wasn't a bug or a far off Fire Elemental spotting a Burrick, but that is up to you. The rules themselves don't insist on stat-adherence/monitoring.

  6. #431
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    About sleeping AI - I played A New Job to check if there is any change in behavior of sleeping AI, but I didn't notice any change. On the other hand I noticed something else. I was wrong in my report, sleeping AI doesn't alert to the sound of opening wardrobes and cabinets, but rather to your footsteps. I didn't notice that, because I was casually ghosting and I didn't care too much about 1st alerts, so I was just crouch running in room and that was source of 1st alerts. So on wood you just need to hold creep when moving no matter the speed of your movements. In other words you can run while standing and it will be fine, but only if you also hold creep.

    Another problem I made during my testing was I was releasing creep before releasing my movement buttons. This led me to making extra step without creep, which was a source of 1st alert from sleeping AI. To avoid that, first stop moving and then release creep button. That's what you need to do on wood, but most likely different surfaces will give different leeway. I'm guessing that on cobblestone or carpet you will not need to creep, but on metal you will be forced to crouch walk + creep. In other words to avoid 1st alerts from sleeping AI you must listen to your own footsteps. If you make louder footsteps while in room with sleeping AI, it will counts as 1st alert. Also be careful of loud dropping objects, but most likely AI will just wake up to that. Also during my testing I managed to supreme ghost lord's bedroom in A New Job FM. So it's possible to learn how what you need to do to 1st alert sleeping AI without having indication from it.

    About eavesdropping - I tried that, but I couldn't make it work. But since marbleman said it's possible and I got tip about it during loading screen. So eavesdropping works a bit differently than in Thief. Leaning forward towards door doesn't work. You must instead lean left/right towards door and after 1-2 seconds you will hear what's happening on the other side. I guess that's the step towards reality.

  7. #432
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: I ghosted A New Job already and definitely got an alert 1 from the secretary desk opening, not from footsteps. Were you able to do that whole room with no alerts at all? If so, that is very strange. I also detected that he alerted to footsteps, so I creep crouched the entire way. I checked before and after opening the desk multiple times. And it definitely counted in the stats but like you I didn't see or hear anything. I'll try it again, but 99% sure on this one.

  8. #433
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Yup, I'm positive that this room can be beaten without any alert. I checked again, played a bit with dropping book and he only 1st alerted to loud drop of book from high. But I played this room couple of times and even beaten without saves and scored no 1st alerts. I also managed to make diary unfrobbable by putting book on right side of cabinet door and closing cabinet, book will fall on floor and become unfrobbable. And by the way, even this doesn't 1st alert sleeping lord.

  9. #434
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    You are right, Galaer! When I did it this time, I got no alerts either. That is so strange. Last time I stood by the desk, checked the stealth stats and saw no alerts, then opened the desk and check the stats again, 1 alert. This time I got an alert 1 a few times, but that was from tapping my shoes going past the bed. But I got none from the desk. The first time I must have unknowingly tapped the forward key just as I was opening the desk, because he can give an alert to this. I still don't think alerts that aren't verbalized or visible during gameplay from sleeping enemies should be bust Supreme, but it's very nice to know what is possible or not.

    I'm happy I wrote I was 99% sure in my last comment, and not 100%...

  10. #435
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    A few more observations.

    Guards will sometimes comment on doused torches if they are like that to begin with. Guards will also comment on doors left open by other AIs. These remarks should obviously be excused.

  11. #436
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    I noticed that also, reacting to torches I mean. It caught me by surprise, as I expected that to have been fixed by the dark mod team already.

    Noticing doors opened by player doesnt add alerts to the stats though, so I assume perhaps the same goes for alerts to missing loot? Can't remember if you said it already.

  12. #437
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Yeah none of those count for anything in the stats, but we were talking about remarks regarding open doors busting Supreme. So I'm clarifying that these remarks can happen without the player's actions.

  13. #438
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    Scripted responses to being pickpocketed or noticing missing loot are allowed.
    After playing some TDM, I'm a bit confused by the word "scripted" in your statement here, marbleman. Are there non-scripted alerts to missing loot. If so, how can you tell the difference?

    Also, I feel a missing loot alert rule should be absolute; either all if them are allowed (like now) or none, but what about those cases where an enemy starts hunt mode and alerts several other enemies as a result of detecting missing loot. Are these also allowed then, given you are not seen or heard in the process? If they are, it will make for a very different ghosting experience. You have to monitor which loot items trigger such responses, and plan to take those last so you can escape soon after.

  14. #439
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    First, let's separate pickpockets from loot. Guards always alert to being pickpocketed.

    Second, scripted in the sense that -- if I understand this correctly -- it's up to the author to set whether AIs alert to missing loot and which pieces they notice being missing. There are good arguments for these to both bust and not bust Ghost. On the one hand, it may take AIs several minutes to notice a piece being missing, and it might be impossible to know if they do alert if you've already moved on. On the other hand, when they do alert, it's equivalent to a 4th alert, though it doesn't count in the stats.
    Last edited by marbleman; 9th Jul 2021 at 17:16.

  15. #440
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    After playing a few TDM missions, here are some things I noticed. These are not questions, just observations that I'm interested to see if others have experienced similarly or differently.

    1. There is no silent outer edge of objects/terrain. This was a neat trick in Thief to use to traverse across metal pipes for example, or even to land on to remain silent.

    2. Above a certain height (3-4 feet), there is no way to drop without making noise when landing. Only on silent surfaces like carpet or grass does it work, but on others like stone or wood even, you cannot drop crouching and avoid making sound like in Thief.

    3. Stationary (and sitting) enemies pivot their heads around randomly. This you can exploit to move on one side without them seeing you if you wait for them to look away. Been able to take several loot items this way that would otherwise bust Supreme.

    4. Crouch-walking and tapping the run key makes you go faster without making the running sound. On hardcore, enemies are especially vigilant for sound, so this trick is useful. I saw in the .cfg file that sound is cranked up to 1.5 on hardcore while visual alertness only to 1.005. Since 1 seems to be default, would it be an idea to only require 1.0 for both categories for ghosting? I mean if the rules say highest difficulty then you technically should crank these up to 10. What if they add another option in the menu in a future update to say 'insanity' and that increases both to 3.0? Would this be required for Ghost then? Right now, their audible perception is almost unrealistically high.

    5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall. If you look around after leaning, it's almost as if you lower your head to the ground, where the game thinks you are now at ground level. It then applies the ground's light properties to you and you turn even darker. In one case I did this and went from fairly lit up and detected by enemies to almost completely dark and no alerts. I'm not sure if my explanation made sense, but I'll do more experimentation on this.

    6. Enemies can bump into you just a tad without alerting, but at a certain threshold they will automatically alert. Also, if you touch them even the slightest from behind, you can't blackjack them.

    7. Mantling in a standing position makes more noise than from crouching, which is usually completely silent.

    Really enjoying TDM now that I'm getting into it. I love the stealth tool and the quantified stealth score at the end. It makes for very good comparisons between reports. Even if you're failing Supreme or regular Ghost, you still want to lower that score as much as possible. I'm really missing the lockpick count in the stats though, I wish that was there. I saw on a new update they are putting 'load times' in the stats just like the 'save times' are there now.

    Would really like your feedback on this, and perhaps other things you have noticed.

  16. #441
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    Yeah, I have noticed most of those things as well, namely, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 7. The bottom line is that TDM plays a lot differently than Thief, and while a lot of tricks of the latter are not applicable, there are many tricks unique to the former.

    Regarding 1, while you can't simply drop onto pipes and chains, you can still jump and mantle them from a side without making noise. I also noticed two other things here:
    - TDM doesn't have the infinite fall+mantle trick like Thief. If you fall from a height and catch a ledge, you will mantle it but you'll also take damage.
    - You can turn while jumping in TDM! This doesn't come into play often, but I used this several times in The Painter's Wife, which helped quite a bit.

    Regarding 3, patrolling guards do that too.

    Regarding 4, I don't see every ghoster checking their .cfg files. Should we just lift the Hardcore-only requirement and allow playing on preferred settings? What are the values for Nearly Blind/Deaf? Are they above 1.0?

    I never tried 5, but I did notice that leading around corners almost always gives you away unlike in Thief, which is quite annoying. Interesting that it has such an advantage.

    Finally, regarding 7, you don't have to be crouched to begin with. It's sufficient to crouch as you're mantling.

    Here's a few more observations:

    1. The upward and downward angles at which guards can see you are insane. Definitely higher than in Thief.

    2. Guards can hear you climb ladders, so you have to creep while doing that. Speaking of, if you jump while climbing a ladder, you'll climb it faster.

    3. Tiny spiders do not alert to you. The big spiders are a pain the the absoulte ass however. Their movement is random and sporadic, and I still don't understand how to deal with them.

    4. There is no lock-blocking in TDM, and you also can't use a guard's patrol to bypass lockpicking a door. Guards always close doors, and if you try to interfere, they alert.
    Last edited by marbleman; 13th Jul 2021 at 14:04.

  17. #442
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by marbleman View Post
    What are the values for Nearly Blind/Deaf? Are they above 1.0?
    I believe they are around 0.2. By the way, I played Training Mission while having guards sensitivity at Nearly Blind/Deaf and noisemaker arrow training is impossible. On this lowest setting guard will just 1st alert to sound of noisemaker arrow, it was impossible for me to lure guard away. Also if guards are turned away and you are running on metal, they will just 1st alert.In flashbomb challenge you can run to hole without using flashbomb and guard will go only into search mode (3rd alert) instead of hunt mode. In other words, this setting is pretty much broken.

    But on the other hand their reaction time to switch between alerts into full alert is the same and if they are in 4th alert, they become very sensitive. I had situation in A New Job in Inn I decided to KO talking guys. I KO-ed noble guest and guard talking with him went into 4th alert. With all alerted guards it was not only hard to KO all of them, but also stay undetected. And all this time their setting was on Nearly Blind/Deaf.

    As for klatremus' idea to crank up guards settings to 10 - I'm against that, because this means increasing difficulty outside of the game. Similarly in T!/T2 you could edit FMs to have guards on highest sensitivity. Or install Ultimate Difficulty Mod.

  18. #443
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @marbleman: What do you mean turn while jumping? That you can easily do in Thief, so I must be misunderstanding you.

    Yes I also noticed you can instead mantle pipes, and that leaning exposes you, super annoying. It kind of defeats the purpose of leaning for concealment purposes.

    I think the next step down for hearing below hardcore drops it to 0.8 or something. I mostly think we should keep it at hardcore though. It's better to make it more challenging than too easy. We are bound to get better at ghosting TDM anyway. I absolutely am against letting it be up to player, the minimum levels should be specified in the rules

    I haven't encountered small spiders yet, but regular green ones are obnoxiously frustrating. I experimented a long time but got nowhere.

    @Galaer: I didn't mean to suggest increasing it to10. I was just saying it's a simple cfg change, so developers might change the menu settings in the future outside our control.

  19. #444
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2016
    Location: France
    I mean you have a slight bit of air control in TDM. In Thief, once you jump, you can't change the direction in which you go, but in TDM, you can. Not by much, but you can.

    Also, I don't think we should expect such changes from TDM developers. The settings work fine, so why would they tweak them?

    Oh yeah, one more observation: if you save in shade but reload when you're lit, your light gem will be bright for a split second uplon loading, which is enough for guards to give a remark. Kind of annoying as it instantly forces a second reload.
    Last edited by marbleman; 14th Jul 2021 at 09:11.

  20. #445
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    In Accountant 1 (TDM) there is web hanging under ceiling. On top of it are crates needed to pass electrical floor. You must shoot one of ends of rope, so web will fall on electrical floor and vanish. I doubt one rope would destroy the whole web and I don't think electrical floor should destroy it in split of second. So is this apply under damage property rule?

  21. #446
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    5. A very strange trick I found that might not always work (but has worked several times for me) is if you are in a semi-lit room and can't find shade, go into a corner, lean into the room and then turn your mouse to view back towards the wall.
    This is how you can ghost my mission (Patently Dangerous). Some people were saying there's a particular part near the end that's impossible, but I figured out it's possible with this trick, so I left it like it was. (Note that this was back in early 2009 before even 1.0 was released.) I was happy to see at least one YouTube LP figured it out.

    I think the only concession I made to ghosting was related to your reason 1. You could ghost past the last guard in Benson's place if you went over the bookshelf, but I had to put a carpet on it for it to be silent enough. I think there's at least one other way too though, if you scooted across in front of the fireplace fast enough.

  22. #447
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    @Galaer: Cobwebs are not considered property under the new clarifications. See the ghost rules, section B3 under commentary and interpretation. Neither is it a bust to use arrows, as long as nobody is alerted.

    @demagogue: Yes that trick works in many places in various missions I've played since then. It could be very important in preventing busts in future runs. May I ask what YouTube LP shows it?

  23. #448
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2018
    Quote Originally Posted by klatremus View Post
    @Galaer: Cobwebs are not considered property under the new clarifications. See the ghost rules, section B3 under commentary and interpretation. Neither is it a bust to use arrows, as long as nobody is alerted.
    No, no, I mistook the word, I was talking about fishing net.

  24. #449
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    Hmm yes if it's a fishing net then it would fall under the property category. Anything constructed by intelligent creatures or humans. Is a fishing net substantial enough to break the rule? I'm not sure. In this case you'll probably just have to make a decision and report about it. What do you think?

  25. #450
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2003
    Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA, Earth
    In TDM, I've also noticed that enemies occasionally alert to seeing fastened rope arrows, but such alerts also do not count towards the stealth score. Just like reacting to open doors, I likewise think these alerts should bust Supreme, but not regular Ghost. Enemies don't deviate from their path or move if stationary, so they are equal to first alerts. It should be added to the amendment under Supreme rule #4.

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