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View Poll Results: How long will Trump be President?

Voters
132. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1 Term (4 Years)

    26 19.70%
  • 2 Terms (8 Years)

    41 31.06%
  • 1st Term Impeachment/Assassination

    48 36.36%
  • 2nd Term Impeachment/Assassination

    4 3.03%
  • I don't know what's going on!

    13 9.85%
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Thread: ✮✮✮ !Trump Dump! ✮✮✮

  1. #11701
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Here's the way I think it'll play out. The Republicans are gonna try and twist this into a hearing against the Biden's. They're already attempt to schedule them to appear before the house, and even if the Democrats can push that aside, they'll definitely appear before the senate. At the same time, they'll have to prove that all the witnesses testifying against Trump are untrustworthy, and explain why Trump didn't attempt running an investigation through all the usual channels, instead relying on Giuliani working in secret. The Democrats job will be to forever try to keep things on topic, which won't be easy for them to do.

    The single most important thing that we all need to come to terms with is that won't be a bog standard, C-SPAN style federal court proceeding. You're definitely right about one thing: it's going to be a teetotal absolute shit flinging freakshow circus style fuckfest, squeezed for every drop of political gain to be had from it. I can guarantee you that clips from the trial will be aired by both sides during the 2020 campaign commercials.

    Though it may not necessarily benefit Trump. In the end, I think whoever ends up looking the least desperate will be declared the victor. Either way, the breakdown of our government will be spectacular to watch.

  2. #11702
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Here's the way I think it'll play out. The Republicans are gonna try and twist this into a hearing against the Biden's. They're already attempt to schedule them to appear before the house, and even if the Democrats can push that aside, they'll definitely appear before the senate. At the same time, they'll have to prove that all the witnesses testifying against Trump are untrustworthy, and explain why Trump didn't attempt running an investigation through all the usual channels, instead relying on Giuliani working in secret. The Democrats job will be to forever try to keep things on topic, which won't be easy for them to do.

    The single most important thing that we all need to come to terms with is that won't be a bog standard, C-SPAN style federal court proceeding. You're definitely right about one thing: it's going to be a teetotal absolute shit flinging freakshow circus style fuckfest, squeezed for every drop of political gain to be had from it. I can guarantee you that clips from the trial will be aired by both sides during the 2020 campaign commercials.

    Though it may not necessarily benefit Trump. In the end, I think whoever ends up looking the least desperate will be declared the victor. Either way, the breakdown of our government will be spectacular to watch.
    trump works well in the current shit show we have, I was surprised to see the democrats be stupid enough to fall for a circus that benefits trump . not sure how bloomberg is going to work out here either, do dems have a chance between bloomberg & Biden to take out trump? I don't see the rest of the clowns making it with independents and trump IS pissing off anyone who does not subscribe to the Howard stern/jerry springer/ WWE shit show they are ALL engaging in.

  3. #11703
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Don't assume Trump's immunity from scandal as a given. He may seem to thrive on strife, but we've also almost seen him in a controlled environment, where the variables are in his favor. If the Republicans don't play their cards quite right, if he breaks down in front of a hostile investigation, it'll do a ton to hurt his chances with the independent voters, which are currently pretty wishy-washy on their prospects for him.

    Remember, he doesn't just have to convince his base, he also has to convince those swing voters who previously signed on for Obama, but decided to give him a chance over Hillary in 2016. They're the ones who determine elections, not the core Democrat/Republican straight ticket voters.

    These ensuing impeachment hearings, and the inevitable trial is one big wild card for everyone. The Democrats can very easily overplay their hand, and the Republicans can end up dying on a hill they shouldn't be anywhere near. There are no guarantees anyone will come out of this unscathed, up to and including Donald J. Trump.

  4. #11704
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2001
    Location: uk
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Given the context, he's probably talking about 3rd world nations, where agriculture is still a big thing.
    Well I'm either talking about parts of the world that have the sort of population growth that that sort of thing might make a difference, don't already have those things and where Bill and Melinda Gates have spent huge sums of money keeping people alive and fighting poverty or I'm talking about the 1920s... I'm not really sure that "probably" has any real place in working out which does it?

  5. #11705
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Don't assume Trump's immunity from scandal as a given. He may seem to thrive on strife, but we've also almost seen him in a controlled environment, where the variables are in his favor. If the Republicans don't play their cards quite right, if he breaks down in front of a hostile investigation, it'll do a ton to hurt his chances with the independent voters, which are currently pretty wishy-washy on their prospects for him.

    Remember, he doesn't just have to convince his base, he also has to convince those swing voters who previously signed on for Obama, but decided to give him a chance over Hillary in 2016. They're the ones who determine elections, not the core Democrat/Republican straight ticket voters.

    These ensuing impeachment hearings, and the inevitable trial is one big wild card for everyone. The Democrats can very easily overplay their hand, and the Republicans can end up dying on a hill they shouldn't be anywhere near. There are no guarantees anyone will come out of this unscathed, up to and including Donald J. Trump.
    I was going to say he is taking a big chance here but the genie is out of the bottle on what he tried to do through his retard lawyer , do wonder how things will fare among independents who actually get off their ass and vote. republicans all seem to have put their eggs on the trump basket so it might be an all or nothing deal for them.

  6. #11706
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Everything's so damn fucky right now, it's hard to say what anyone will do.

    If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light. Call it what it is: the United States acting on behalf of Donald J. Trump, strongarming a vulnerable foreign head of state into playing a part in a campaign publicity stunt gone absolutely haywire. The mere fact that the White House allegedly handed Volodymyr Zelensky a preapproved script to read on live TV announcing the Ukranian government's intentions to reopen the case into Burisma should tell you everything there is to know about everyone's intentions in this.

    By the evidence presented, the whole shebang is a nigh on textbook example of bribery and corruption. I've grown a little too cynical to expect Trump to pay the consequences for it.

  7. #11707
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinatedzombeh View Post
    If you want to reduce birth rates the easiest way to do it is reduce infant mortality and reduce poverty, you don't go having 20 kids if you expect all of them to survive and you don't need to send them all out to work in the fields so that you have enough to eat.
    Bingo. As a rule, the more children survive to adulthood, the less children will be born. War-torn places like Afghanistan and Congo have some of the highest birth rates in the world. But of course explaining this to a conspiracy-addled mind is an exercise in futility, as Tony has proven with his immediate jump to forced sterilisation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light.
    It's still not clear what the Bidens' crime was supposed to be. Being on the board of a foreign company when your father is a politician is skeevy as hell (though not by far as skeevy as having your children work in the White House), but not actually illegal, as far as I understand. And carrying out US policy is not illegal either.
    Last edited by Starker; 11th Nov 2019 at 22:18.

  8. #11708
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Everything's so damn fucky right now, it's hard to say what anyone will do.

    If Biden is guilty of corruption, he deserves to be brought to justice over it. Same as anyone. Thing is, what Trump did was never about bringing Biden's alleged crimes to light. Call it what it is: the United States acting on behalf of Donald J. Trump, strongarming a vulnerable foreign head of state into playing a part in a campaign publicity stunt gone absolutely haywire. The mere fact that the White House allegedly handed Volodymyr Zelensky a preapproved script to read on live TV announcing the Ukranian government's intentions to reopen the case into Burisma should tell you everything there is to know about everyone's intentions in this.

    By the evidence presented, the whole shebang is a nigh on textbook example of bribery and corruption. I've grown a little too cynical to expect Trump to pay the consequences for it.
    Would NOT bother me one bit if BOTH Biden and trump ended up in jail

  9. #11709
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    It's still not clear what the Bidens' crime was supposed to be. Being on the board of a foreign company when your father is a politician is skeevy as hell (though not by far as skeevy as having your children work in the White House), but not actually illegal, as far as I understand. And carrying out US policy is not illegal either.
    If Biden used his government connections to remove a troublesome prosecutor from investigating his son's new business interests, that'd be corruption.

    Thing is, we all know the exact reasons why that particular prosecutor was removed from office. It was well advertised, well documented, and done entirely in the public eye. This wasn't something that Joe Biden did of his own volution, but via a bipartisan decision from congress, at the behest of multiple countries. The conflicts of interest that arose from it was investigated, and the most you accuse anyone of is cronyism on Burisma's part for hiring an underqualified Hunter Biden simply for his political connections.

    Quote Originally Posted by jkcerda View Post
    Would NOT bother me one bit if BOTH Biden and trump ended up in jail
    Based on the above, it's hard to say why the Biden's deserve to be in jail. Using daddy's name, fame, and connections to hobnob and make some money isn't illegal. Biden using his powers of office to pressure Ukraine into removing a prosecutor would be illegal, if Biden had done it to benefit his son. But, like I said, we know the reasons why. Trump's banking on the implications of Biden's involvement, not the facts as they happened.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 11th Nov 2019 at 22:47.

  10. #11710
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Yeah, the butter emails thing definitely showed the power of overhyped mild scandal to match or even eclipse much more serious scandals in the public eye.

  11. #11711
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Hell, before that there was Benghazi and even before that there was Whitewater. It's been the Republican playbook for a long time.

  12. #11712
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Time did an article on excuses that have been brought to defend Lord Dampnut's abuse of power:

    https://time.com/5724220/donald-trum...hment-defense/

    We’ve reached the part of this tired charade where even those who’ve tried to escape the obvious conclusion now know that the emperor has no clothes. The mounting evidence from career diplomats, and Trump’s own political appointees, has laid bare his self-serving ploy in Ukraine.

    Many people have become numb to this Administration’s wrongdoing after almost three years of constant scandal. Some feel that no matter what Trump does, he’ll never be held accountable. Why should they invest time in today’s awful news, when it will give way in a few days or weeks without anything changing?

    This is the challenge the Democrats face as they open public impeachment hearings this week. Can they get the country to pay attention? Can they produce a coherent narrative that will help people understand this most serious of Trump Administration debacles?

    Trump has, per usual, thrown out a barrage of defenses, hoping something will stick. So far nothing has. Here are the key defenses he’s tried and those he’ll likely move on to next, and why they all fail.

    [...]
    Last edited by Starker; 12th Nov 2019 at 09:41.

  13. #11713
    If Biden used his government connections to remove a troublesome prosecutor from investigating his son's new business interests, that'd be corruption.

    Thing is, we all know the exact reasons why that particular prosecutor was removed from office. It was well advertised, well documented, and done entirely in the public eye. This wasn't something that Joe Biden did of his own volution, but via a bipartisan decision from congress, at the behest of multiple countries. The conflicts of interest that arose from it was investigated, and the most you accuse anyone of is cronyism on Burisma's part for hiring an underqualified Hunter Biden simply for his political connections.
    The prosecutor testified under oath that he was removed to protect Burisma.

    I've already outlined the (easily reproduced from public sources) timeline and the idea of everything being kosher and aboveboard requires believing in numerous "coincidences" all just being perfectly timed to line up events that made the Biden family rich with foreign policy decisions from Joe Biden.

    Based on the above, it's hard to say why the Biden's deserve to be in jail. Using daddy's name, fame, and connections to hobnob and make some money isn't illegal. Biden using his powers of office to pressure Ukraine into removing a prosecutor would be illegal, if Biden had done it to benefit his son. But, like I said, we know the reasons why. Trump's banking on the implications of Biden's involvement, not the facts as they happened.
    So is a quid pro quo engagement where they get the aid and in exchange the Biden family gets a kickback.

    Thing is we'll probably never know first hand because Unlike Trump, Biden was smart enough to travel over there in person and have a meeting far away from any recording devices.

    Based on the timeline of events (the relevant parties sequentially having meetings in person, then immediately followed by appointing Hunter.


    As much as I despise Glenn Beck, I did get talked into watching this summary and it's a very good outline (surpisingly for Glenn Beck) over some of the events I've already documented.

    https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1928356553933315

    tangent: it's amazing how much better any journalist gets once they get away from Fox News.

    Time did an article on excuses that have been brought to defend Lord Dampnut's abuse of power:
    If it makes you feel better Don Jr. got booed off stage. The base is turning on them and you're seeing a huge conflict between the Boomer generation that adheres pretty strongly to Neocon ideals and the "Zoomers" that are America First and want America to focus on it's own problems first.

    That said they'll probably still vote for him over any Democrat (Except Tulsi might split the Republicans due to her anti-war, anti-Israel stance) but a member of Trump's own family getting chased out of their own event is going to make it's way to the orange man himself and probably rattle him a bit.

  14. #11714
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    On one hand...

    1. The thing Burisma was probed for had to do with improper acquiring of licenses, not anything remotely connected to Hunter Biden's position on the board. There is not a single shred of evidence that Biden's son had done anything illegal or was in legal jeopardy at any point.

    2. Getting rid of the prosecutor was not something Biden was doing on his own. He was carrying out the policy of the United States government. It was the position of the US, the EU, and many international and activist organisations that the guy had to go and despite what he himself claims, it was pretty much the consensus that the prosecutor had been far too lax on rooting out corruption.

    3. The prosecutor was in fact fired months later, after IMF officials threatened to withdraw funding.


    On the other hand...

    1. Lord Dampnut illegally withheld military aid earmarked for Ukraine by the Congress. It was only released against the president's orders after the responsible officials (including John Bolton) concluded that they had no legal standing to withhold the money.

    2. There is compelling evidence, including testimony by multiple credible witnesses, that Ukraine was pressured to both investigate the president's main political rival and to publicly announce the investigation.

    3. Vindman testified that he tried and failed to add key details to the "transcript" of the president's Ukraine call where he says "I'd like you to do us a favour, though" in response to the Ukraine president saying they would actually really like to receive the military aid they were promised. Also, that "transcript" was placed on a highly secure server not meant for that purpose in order to restrict access to it.

    4. The White House has impeded the investigation by ordering witnesses to not testify and refusing to hand over documents related to the investigation.

  15. #11715
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Drain the swamp:

    https://www.politico.com/news/2019/1...-allies-069638

    At least eight former White House, presidential transition and campaign officials for President Donald Trump were hired as outside contractors to the federal health department at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year, according to documents newly obtained by POLITICO.

    They were among at least 40 consultants who worked on a one-year, $2.25 million contract directed by Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Administrator Seema Verma. The contractors were hired to burnish Verma’s personal brand and provide “strategic communications” support. They charged up to $380 per hour for work traditionally handled by dozens of career civil servants in CMS's communications department.

    The arrangement allowed the Trump allies to cycle through the federal government's opaque contracting system, charging hefty fees with little public oversight or accountability.
    [...]

  16. #11716
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    The prosecutor testified under oath that he was removed to protect Burisma.
    Yeah, he did, but his take on matters is incredibly suspect, and has a lot to gain by lying. Other sources are saying there never was an issue with the Bidens, and that the investigation into Burisma stemmed from a possible money laundering scheme that occurred before he even sat on the board.

    I've already outlined the (easily reproduced from public sources) timeline and the idea of everything being kosher and aboveboard requires believing in numerous "coincidences" all just being perfectly timed to line up events that made the Biden family rich with foreign policy decisions from Joe Biden.
    There's only one coincidence here. Admittedly, it's a big one, but the evidence tends to mitigate it. It's not like the Biden's were the only party threatening to withhold funding to Ukraine unless it dealt with its internal corruption issues. Viktor Shokin's ouster at the behest of the US Government wasn't committed in a vacuum. There were plenty of pressure being applied by multiple interests. Like I said, everyone knew exactly what Biden did, and why he did it. Hence why it wasn't that huge of a deal at the time, even when the media was bringing up the potential conflict of interests to public attention.

    So is a quid pro quo engagement where they get the aid and in exchange the Biden family gets a kickback.
    If you can prove that Burisma courted Hunter Biden specifically to get his father to act on their behalf, prove that Joe Biden used the influence and position as Vice President to stymie a troublesome investigation into his son's company specifically for his benefit, then yeah, it'd be a quid pro quo on the same level as what Trump is being accused of now.

    Right now, with all things considered, you can't prove that intent. That Hunter Biden possibly profited indirectly from government action spurred on by his father's involvement in a wider issue isn't proof of a quid pro quo in and of itself.

    For added proof, here's testimony from former Ambassador John E. Herbst concerning internal corruption in Ukraine, written months before Biden forced Shokin's ouster.

    While reform progress was substantial in 2015, it was not enough for many in civil society and at least some reformers in the Rada and the government. Critics focused on the absence of any real changes in the Procurator General’s Office and in the judiciary and claimed that the president and prime minister were not interested in going after these major sources of corruption. Both institutions were known to facilitate corruption. They pointed to the failure of the government—through the Procurator General—to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption. They complained,too,that Procurator General Viktor Shokin was a compromised figure who had served as Procurator General in the Yanukovych administration.

    By late fall of 2015, the EU and the United States joined the chorus of those seeking Mr. Shokin’s removal as the start of an overall reform of the Procurator General’s Office. U.S. Vice President Joe Biden spoke publicly about this before and during his December visit to Kyiv; but Mr. Shokin remained in place.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 12th Nov 2019 at 13:11.

  17. #11717
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Tarantula View Post
    The prosecutor testified under oath that he was removed to protect Burisma.

    .
    source please.

  18. #11718
    Interesting video...on a tangent but the material is worth considering because itís easy to conjecture as to why Trump voters donít really have any interest in democracy.

    Iíll let the present present but itís an interesting take on what makes societies functional.

    Iím curious if the declining intelligence of the country is to blame in large part for whatís happening.



    TLDR: Intelligence is a fairly strong predictive factor for economic productivity; and as experiments demonstrate itís because a higher level of intelligence makes cooperation possible as the participants in any cooperative endeavor are capable of rationally analyzing future consequences and benefits from on going co operation instead of simply focusing on short term gain.

  19. #11719
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    I hope Trump is s strong swimmer, what with that Stone around his neck...

    Rick Gates, who served as Trump’s deputy campaign chairman, testified Tuesday that Stone began discussing Clinton leaks with the campaign in April 2016 and that from May onward Gates understood Stone to be the campaign’s intermediary with WikiLeaks. By July 2016, Gates testified, Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort said he was updating Trump and others regularly and directed Gates to keep following up with Stone. After Trump ended one phone call from Stone at the end of that month, Gates testified, the future president said to Gates that “more information would be coming.”
    What? Trump lied in his written responses to Mueller? Say it ain't so, Joe! Say it ain't so!

  20. #11720
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    So we've got allegations of corruption, bribery, and now lying under oath?

    Shame none of it's illegal, huh? They can't convict without a blowjob to hang it all on.

  21. #11721
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    everything appears to be "hear/say" from everyone , missing from today is trump actually saying what they all seem to believe...........

  22. #11722
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2009
    Location: The Spiraling Sea
    That's because we need to magically transform all the gray areas into what we want!...

    ...in order to get rid of Drumpf!...

  23. #11723
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    No real gray area about withholding military aid and pressuring a foreign government to investigate your political opponent and publicly announce it.

    "I'd like you to do us a favour, though."

    And despite all the bluster about how he would welcome the impeachment and it would be good for him, the first instinct of this chickenshit president was to try to bribe the Democrats with gun legislation to make it go away.

  24. #11724
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus
    I think the surprise of the day was Quigley: "hearsay can be much better evidence than direct."

    Say what?!

  25. #11725
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    FiveThirtyEight sums the whole thing up quite well.

    What Democrats don’t appear to have at this point is a witness who can testify directly about why the White House withheld the aid. Sondland has only said that he “presumed” the funds were tied to an investigation. And the other witnesses didn’t speak with Trump himself about communications with Ukraine. But the testimony Democrats already gathered contains plenty of circumstantial evidence. What we have yet to see is how they’ll stitch those threads together, and how compelling their story will be for people tuning into the hearings.
    The Democrats have a case where a number of people are commenting on how weird and suspicious and not quite right everything was, but lack the proverbial smoking gun. Though on the flipside of that, the Republicans don't have much of a defense against what's been presented, other than saying that whatever highly suspicious thing that was going on didn't succeed, because Trump released the funds two days after the whistleblower did his/her thing, and HEY LOOK, THE BIDEN'S, GRR!

    If we're all expecting a highly entertaining, no holds barred fist fight trial of the century where Trump is either exonerated to the heavens high, or damned straight to hell, it's going to be highly disappointing. It's going to be dragged out, and none of the people at the center of it all, Giuliani, Mulvaney, Bolton, et al., can even be compelled to testify because Trump's cited executive privilege to ignore all the congressional supoenas, which can't be circumvented without going to SCOTUS to see if his take on it is constitutionally kosher.
    Last edited by Renzatic; 14th Nov 2019 at 14:00.

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