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Thread: openDarkEngine

  1. #301
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2006
    Only 90% of the Dark Engine speed? Well forget it : P

    Actually, todays GPU's are more than 10 times faster, bringing down the adjusted 1988 rendering speed to 990%

    It would seem that once a base renderer is there, things like widescreen support, might not be far behind?

  2. #302
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    We'll see what can be done to improve the performance. When I say 90% (just a guess), I mean running Dark on the same machine. Otherwise, I agree.

    You know, I've only optimized the rendering to the point it was usable, so I could work on other parts of the system. It can be replaced by a more effective system any time, after it is written.

    Widescreen support should not be a problem even now, it would be sufficient to change the camera parameters accordingly (I've got one such display at work, so no problem to do testing).

    One thing is better even now - the rendering runs in 32bit depth, without the 16bit dithering.

  3. #303
    jtr7
    Guest
    One thing is better even now - the rendering runs in 32bit depth, without the 16bit dithering.
    Nice!

  4. #304
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hiding in Garrett's wardrobe.
    Don't worry, once I've worked on the rendering side it'll be a lot faster. Just need to find the time to work on it.

  5. #305
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    Don't worry, once I've worked on the rendering side it'll be a lot faster. Just need to find the time to work on it.
    SiO2. Are you ignoring me? I've sent you a few PM's and you still haven't gotten back to me.

    When you sent me the PM asking how to get our content, I told you to PM Sparhawk to get SVN access. I was wondering if you did that...and if not, do that now and he will gladly set you up with an account to get the content you need to take a look at things. I realize you're busy with Opendarkengine, but we could really use some help on the rendering side of the Dark Radiant editor, and it would be a HUGE help if you could take a look at it for us. We want the editor to be the best it can be for the community.

    I think there has been some confusion as to what part of the Mod you were working on. Dark Radiant is the editor, and a completely separate code base from the MOd and as I said in the PM's, you actually don't need the Dark Mod content to test the renderer in Dark Radiant, we have left Doom 3 compatibility intact, so you only need Doom 3 installed and then you can use the Doom 3 assets for testing. You can have access to TDM assets if you desire them, just PM sparhawk, but it would save you having to download the huge asset repository if you simply used D3 assets.

    Please reply. I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Did you not receive the original PM when you sent me the message on our forums? I sent it. The last you posted in our forums was
    I need to go off and aquaint myself with TDM seeing as I know, like, nothing about it. I'll be back in a few days...
    . As far as we knew, you were still doing that and just too busy with real life commitments to get back to us yet. We had no idea you were waiting. Why didn't you just post in the forums and say..."hey guys, I would like the content"?

    I could be misinterpreting, but it kind of feels like we're getting a cold shoulder because of a miscommunication.
    Last edited by New Horizon; 15th Sep 2007 at 10:01.

  6. #306
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hiding in Garrett's wardrobe.
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    SiO2. Are you ignoring me? I've sent you a few PM's and you still haven't gotten back to me.

    When you sent me the PM asking how to get our content, I told you to PM Sparhawk to get SVN access. I was wondering if you did that...and if not, do that now and he will gladly set you up with an account to get the content you need to take a look at things. I realize you're busy with Opendarkengine, but we could really use some help on the rendering side of the Dark Radiant editor, and it would be a HUGE help if you could take a look at it for us. We want the editor to be the best it can be for the community.

    I think there has been some confusion as to what part of the Mod you were working on. Dark Radiant is the editor, and a completely separate code base from the MOd and as I said in the PM's, you actually don't need the Dark Mod content to test the renderer in Dark Radiant, we have left Doom 3 compatibility intact, so you only need Doom 3 installed and then you can use the Doom 3 assets for testing. You can have access to TDM assets if you desire them, just PM sparhawk, but it would save you having to download the huge asset repository if you simply used D3 assets.

    Please reply. I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Did you not receive the original PM when you sent me the message on our forums? I sent it. The last you posted in our forums was . As far as we knew, you were still doing that and just too busy with real life commitments to get back to us yet. We had no idea you were waiting. Why didn't you just post in the forums and say..."hey guys, I would like the content"?

    I could be misinterpreting, but it kind of feels like we're getting a cold shoulder because of a miscommunication.
    Give me a chance to reply. I'm real busy.

    I spent ages trying to get set up, trawling the forum and the wiki for details of asset access only to find out that I need to go and ask someone else for access. I was not impressed. A tip: if you recruit someone from a Thief forum you can safely assume they don't want to be editing Doom3 maps.

    I need to go off and aquaint myself with TDM seeing as I know, like, nothing about it. I'll be back in a few days...
    Silly me. I thought I'd evaluate the mod and report back with my findings and proposals. I posted that roughly two weeks before your reply to my PM asking where the setup instructions were. How did you expect me to acquaint myself with TDM without any assets? Why didn't you reply to this at the time and save me all that frustrating searching of dead ends?

    "seeing as I know, like, nothing about it". I THINK THIS WAS A CLUE.

    as I said in the PM's, you actually don't need the Dark Mod content to test the renderer in Dark Radiant
    This was not stated in any PM's I've seen (either here or at thedarkmod) except the one *after* I'd PM'ed you in frustration at not being able to find setup instructions.

  7. #307
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2007
    Location: behind a taffer, blackjack out
    Is there any possibility that OpDE can do normal/specular mapping like Q2E/DarkPlaces-Quake/Quake4engine,...etc. ?

  8. #308
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    Give me a chance to reply. I'm real busy.
    Sorry. I was just anxious to hear from you, and it felt like you were skipping over my messages. Not saying you were, it just felt that way since you answered messages after my own.

    This was not stated in any PM's I've seen (either here or at thedarkmod) except the one *after* I'd PM'ed you in frustration at not being able to find setup instructions.
    I was referring to the recent PM's. Sorry for the confusion.

    "seeing as I know, like, nothing about it". I THINK THIS WAS A CLUE.
    This really wasn't clear. It simply sounded like you were going to do some personal research on the Mod for your own interests. As I am about to explain, the task asked of you didn't require any knowledge of the dark mod, it's a completely technical task.

    Silly me. I thought I'd evaluate the mod and report back with my findings and proposals. I posted that roughly two weeks before your reply to my PM asking where the setup instructions were. How did you expect me to acquaint myself with TDM without any assets? Why didn't you reply to this at the time and save me all that frustrating searching of dead ends?
    We didn't reply because you said you would be back in a few days. It just sounded like you wanted to familiarize yourself with the history of our project, it gave no indication that you were looking for assets.

    The confusion seems to be coming from exactly what it was we were asking of you. Just to further clarify, we have two separate projects.

    The Dark Mod and Dark Radiant. Dark Mod contains ALL of the textures, sounds, models..etc...a separate, yet related project. Dark Radiant is simply the editor, a completely separate code base, and the project I asked you to review.

    Here is my original message to you:


    I saw your link to some of your work, very impressive. I do a lot of PR and recruiting for The Dark Mod, and I'm wondering if you would consider the possibility of lending us some of your time to take a look at the realtime preview in our customized version of GTK Radiant...Dark Radiant?

    As it stands, it doesn't give an accurate representation of what a mappers level will look like ingame. We don't want to get too fancy, no animated lights or shadows are required, but it would be great to have a much more accurate portrayal of how the lighting and shadows will simply look.

    Hope to hear from you.
    I invited you to work on Dark Radiant, not TDM. It is open source and can be downloaded from Sourceforge.

    Dark Radiant can be used for Doom 3 and TDM editing...that's why you don't need TDM assets for the requested task of reviewing the Dark Radiant editor.

    This is why you were not initially given any guidance towards gaining access to TDM assets, you didn't need them. TDM assets were unrelated to the task of reviewing the map preview renderer in Dark Radiant.

    I'm not casting blame, I'm simply explaining why things are the way they are.

    If you prefer to have full TDM access, then you are more than welcome to have it, you simply need to contact Sparhawk with the username and password you would like for the SVN account. You're probably aware of how SVN works, so you'll know that the download is hefty, due to all the backup versions of the files. Currently the SVN repository is around 3 gigs. It's a LOT to download for the very precise task we asked of you, but like I said...you're welcome to the access.
    Last edited by New Horizon; 15th Sep 2007 at 15:47.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    The sad reality is, unless some former LGS staffer has the source code hidden away somewhere...and in my dreams someone does...we will never see the Thief Source Code.
    Even if the original source code is lost, there is a possibility that the program-database-files (.pdb in VS2005) are still archieved with the built release EXEs/DLLs. IF we had permission to use those, it would make it possible to understand the disassembled machine code.

  10. #310
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by *Zaccheus* View Post
    Even if the original source code is lost, there is a possibility that the program-database-files (.pdb in VS2005) are still archieved with the built release EXEs/DLLs.
    Are you referring to debugging symbols? Those will most likely have been removed from the executables for the final release. Even if they were still there, all they give you is the internal names of some variables and functions, which is a far cry from source code.

    IF we had permission to use those, it would make it possible to understand the disassembled machine code.
    Not sure where permission comes into it, they are either in the EXE or they're not. However disassembled machine code (even with symbol names) is only really useful for certain small-scale hacks, like figuring out the internal IDs and codes used for operations or their arguments, and is nowhere near as useful as having the actual source.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by OrbWeaver View Post
    Are you referring to debugging symbols?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrbWeaver View Post
    Those will most likely have been removed from the executables for the final release. Even if they were still there, all they give you is the internal names of some variables and functions, which is a far cry from source code.
    For release code you can generate a separate symbol file which is not shipped but archived. These symbol files are useful for diagnosing crashes reported by customers. If these were created at all, they might still be archived somewhere even if the source code was lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrbWeaver View Post
    However disassembled machine code (even with symbol names) is only really useful for certain small-scale hacks, like figuring out the internal IDs and codes used for operations or their arguments, and is nowhere near as useful as having the actual source.
    Nowhere near as useful, I agree, but it would give some useful insight into how the code works - assuming permission for reverse engineering is given.

  12. #312
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Oh I see what you mean, you are thinking that Eidos might have saved the separate debugging files but not the source code, and might provide these files to the community? It seems a rather small probability to me, but I guess it is possible.

  13. #313
    Permanently Enlarged
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: I could care...but I won't.
    Ive just gotten into reversing myself, starting with the old Diablo games. Still trying to make sense of all this ASM gibberish... God, im gonna need an x86 ASM book, anyone got one they would be willin to UPS me?

    If i can learn to make sense of all this jargon, I might be of some use to this project finally... As my compilers always end up too jumpy and bitchy for me to work on the code side...

  14. #314
    New Member
    Registered: Sep 2007
    awesome work Volca.
    i hope the project will be in a playable state soon

  15. #315
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002

    SiO2

    Well done m8! keep it up you are one of the few to talk and do! Respect!

    PS:
    Igonre all the "Will it be like Dark-Places engine? Will it be all sparky like Doom3?"
    and etc. questions. Focus on your work get it done to your taste then listen to
    others Because the more you will concentrate on others the less you'll do...

  16. #316
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hiding in Garrett's wardrobe.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaNtAn View Post
    SiO2

    Well done m8! keep it up you are one of the few to talk and do! Respect!

    PS:
    Igonre all the "Will it be like Dark-Places engine? Will it be all sparky like Doom3?"
    and etc. questions. Focus on your work get it done to your taste then listen to
    others Because the more you will concentrate on others the less you'll do...
    Thanks. Not bad advise.

    I've been taking a look at some Thief1 and Thief2 levels in OPDE. It took a while to get a working build and to figure out what resources were needed and where they needed to be. The project is in a pre-alpha stage so it's not unexpected.

    I'll be spending some time running levels and crunching numbers before I start coding. I need numbers like how many textures are loaded, how much vidmem they take, total vertex count for a level, portal count, max/min visible portals, etc. These numbers will indicate the best way of approaching rendering a level that can be made with Dromed. The DX9 renderer works well so I'll be running the engine though PIX to gather renderering statistics. PIX is the Direct3D interactive 3D debugger that comes with the Debug install of the DirectX SDK.

    Great job by Volca.

  17. #317
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    Thanks. Not bad advise.

    I've been taking a look at some Thief1 and Thief2 levels in OPDE. It took a while to get a working build and to figure out what resources were needed and where they needed to be. The project is in a pre-alpha stage so it's not unexpected.
    Yep, the resource management system is probably next on the list. Currently, it's a bit messy I'm afraid.

    I want to make everything simple, clean and reliable as a primary goal for the 0.2.1 (now) -> 0.3.0 (end of year?)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    I'll be spending some time running levels and crunching numbers before I start coding. I need numbers like how many textures are loaded, how much vidmem they take, total vertex count for a level, portal count, max/min visible portals, etc. These numbers will indicate the best way of approaching rendering a level that can be made with Dromed. The DX9 renderer works well so I'll be running the engine though PIX to gather renderering statistics. PIX is the Direct3D interactive 3D debugger that comes with the Debug install of the DirectX SDK.
    You're THE MAN I've been searching for since the beginning of the project

    Quote Originally Posted by SiO2 View Post
    Great job by Volca.
    Thanks!

  18. #318
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2002

    You can't realy find the SDK for 8.1/7.0 or 9.0a can't you?
    You realy have to dig into google.

    What is the SDK that your using SiO2? 10? hope not otherwise all
    will be limited to "Vista" stuff, hey one more thing, I bet you saw
    alot of guys here that use Linux/Unix or even Mac OS X, I guess that
    if it's on (Sourceforge) you might want use OpenGL and FMOD (or
    OpenAL ) source dlls (after analyzing all the statistics by PIX).

    Keep it up you both!

  19. #319
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hiding in Garrett's wardrobe.
    Using the latest DirectX SDK doesn't limit you to just developing DX10. That would just be plain stupid and make people hate DX10 even more than most people seem to now. Anyway, I was a beta tester for DirectX from DX5 to DX9 so I have every DXSDK from DX5.0 up to DX9 on CD's sent to me by Microsoft.

    I'm not after API-specific quantitative data - the use of PIX is just to get general statistics.

    The final renderer API is down to Volca. My own investigations will target DX9 (and maybe DX10) and will probably result in a separate renderer to the current codebase. Volca can then decide what to do with it (modify current/replace with mine/ignore/etc).

    OpenAL is a sound library. Sound is outside the remit of a 3D renderer, so it's up to Volca as to which sound API to use. Coincidentally, I'm currently using OpenAL in my own game engine (separate to OPDE) and have found it fairly easy to use. Also, OpenAL is the only way of getting 3D HW sound in Vista since DirectSound is software-based only on Vista (thanks, MS).

  20. #320
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    Quote Originally Posted by Iain View Post
    Is there any possibility that OpDE can do normal/specular mapping like Q2E/DarkPlaces-Quake/Quake4engine,...etc. ?
    Why there shouldn't be? Once engine is fully functional nothing stops from adorning it with bells and whistles like that.

  21. #321
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Hiding in Garrett's wardrobe.
    Quote Originally Posted by 242 View Post
    Why there shouldn't be? Once engine is fully functional nothing stops from adorning it with bells and whistles like that.
    You can have anything you want since the renderer is being written from scratch - well, within physical hardware limits and limits of my free time.

    HDR, bloom, motion blur, refractive/reflective water, refractive glass (see my demo for an idea), bump mapping, gloss (specular) mapping, normal mapping, fur, DOF (depth of field),POM (parallax occlusion mapping), etc. Actually, POM is pretty severe - it only runs at decent frame rates on my DX10 card; considering it's ray-tracing it's not too surprising.

    Take a look at my website for more eye-candy. http://sio2.g0dsoft.com

  22. #322
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Sydney, NSW, Australia
    As fun as all of those features sound, the main things I'm interested in are; proper 32 bit support, greater polygon/texture count, a much better animation system (with lip synch support) for the models and dynamic lighting.

  23. #323
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Those fancy features should not be so hard to do, compared to the work required for the core systems (Sound system, Stim/Receptron, Act/React, scripting, physics...). I don't mean they are easy or such.

    I'm not still sure about the OpenAL/FMOD. From what I know, some sounds are compressed with a win32 specific codec that I don't know if OpenAL will handle. FMOD seems to support numerous codecs, so it's probably a better solution, and is free for this kind of project. The sound system depends on schema parsing, room database and event system (maybe others I'm not currently aware of?), so these are the things that have to be written first in order to get a fully working sound.

    The dynamic lightning is a feature I'd also like to see. Let's wait what SiO2 will surprise us with

    Lipsync would probably require new set of AI models, which will be possible (I mean Ogre format meshes, which can be loaded as a replacement for the original even now.). AI mesh loading will be done in the time to implement AI. This is planned for version 0.4 -> 0.5. Now we're officialy at version 0.2.1.

    SiO2: I'll sure consider (hell, not only consider(!)) using your code.

  24. #324
    The sound files use ADPCM encoding, and a quick look at the OpenAL sources suggests that there is code for handling it. Also, if FMOD has a "free for non-commercial use only" license, and OPDE is GPL, then the licenses may be incompatible.

  25. #325
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Thanks for the info. The sound system implementation is still far away, so I only took a quick look at the sound libs. If openAL will handle the format, we will probably select it as the used lib.
    Still I think the FMOD should be license - compatible as OPDE won't be distributed commercially.

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