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Thread: openDarkEngine

  1. #126
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Luthien
    Are you suggesting he has psychic powers and knows beforehand that the Doom 3 engine will be open sourced in the future, despite the fact that the Doom 1 and Doom 2 engines are not?
    The Doom 1/2 engines ARE open-source, genius. As are Quake, Quake II, and Quake III. Noticing a pattern here?

  2. #127
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    @Vocla:
    In case that is of any help to you, I can convert your project sources to use the automake/autoconf/libtool system to generate the source tarballs and configure scripts that are easy to compile on any system.

  3. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Luthien
    P.S.: If you quote something to convince people, don't quote like a boulevard magazine. He didn't say that the Dark Mod will eventually be an Dark Engine II.
    What the fuck are you talking about.

  4. #129
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: The Kingdom of Prester John
    The source code for the original Doom engine was released in 1999, if memory serves me right. Here's one place you can get it.

  5. #130
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Thank you, Gestalt, I see. I must have missed the 1999 release and just remembered the non-open source release from 1997. Sorry.

  6. #131
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2002
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by Luthien
    How come that as a Dark Mod developer you do not know that the Doom 3 engine it is based upon is not open source? Essentially, Dark Mod would be a closed source Dark Engine II.

    1) The SDK contains a lot of the code, so that you have pretty much freedom, even though the renderer and other stuff is closed. Of course it would be handy to have the engine code as well but it is not strictly neccessary, because teh Doom 3 engine was designed with moddaibillity in mind. Not because of modders, but because they want to make money with it by selling it to game developers.

    2) Id is known to release their code to the public as GPL. It happened to Doom, Doom 2, Quake, Quake and now Quake 3, so there is no reason to assume that this will NOT happen with Doom 3 as well. Considering the stance that Carmack takes towards the open source community, this would be unlikely. So we can expect in 5-6 years (maybe more) that we can have a fully open sourced darkmod.

  7. #132
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Luthien:
    Seems you suceeded compiling the code, I'm glad if you did.

    I'm now tidying the code, splitting into separate files, and rewriting some of the horrible stuff, and anjuta prepared the automake scripts for me, but I would definetaly be glad if you will try it and tell me if it works for you. I hope I will post the cleaned-up version of the source to sf. today (in an hour or so - no update for the functional part, only cleanout)...

    Thanks

  8. #133
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    @Volca:
    I've moved the technical discussion to the sourceforge forum. Would be nice if you reply to my post there soon.

    Edit: Raaahh! DON'T use the anjuta automake scripts! They're ugly and unmaintainable! Writing the whole project structure takes me no more than an hour or so

  9. #134
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Luthien
    Thank you, Gestalt, I see. I must have missed the 1999 release and just remembered the non-open source release from 1997. Sorry.
    You also missed all the dozens of source ports that have been created in the intervening SIX YEARS?
    Last edited by ZylonBane; 14th Dec 2005 at 16:15.

  10. #135
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    I'm a Thief player, not a Doom player.

  11. #136
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt
    Doesn't that rely on someone recreating the original levels from scratch in the Doom 3 engine, though? If all it uses are the sounds, you still have to deal with the brushwork, static mesh placement, and scripting and all that. The Dark Mod script idea would be useful for recreating levels, but not playing them in their original form, which seems to be the point here.
    Well, tbqh and OPENLY FRANK about this, Thief 2 levels in the Doom 3 engine would look like total and utter shit unless you heavily reworked them.

    The very idea of that low poly, low texture, incorrect lighting ugliness that would ensure!

    To look halfway decent, levels have to be made for Doom 3. Even if that means copying the layout, you still need modern textures, modern models, etc. Otherwise there's a good chance it'd end up looking WORSE than the dark engine.

  12. #137
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: The Kingdom of Prester John
    I know, I was mostly just saying that The Dark Mod will not do what the openDarkEngine project intends, which seemed to be what oDDity was implying. Light count would be a problem as well, since you have to be much more careful about that with Doom 3 than with the dark engine.

  13. #138
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Eh, it's just a matter of time until Id adds lightmap support to the D3 codebase.

  14. #139
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I doubt it, ZB. There are rumors that Id will reimplement lightmaps in their next engine, but beyond the occasional bugfixes and code tidying they're done with D3.

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane
    Of course you would. It may be buggy, but obviously it works. ...the entire point of such an exercise would be to future-proof existing Thief content.
    There is no hard core proof that you need a 100% replica to make the FMs work. In my opinion (and game programming experience) you don't.

    But we have to wait and see what happens.

  16. #141
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2004
    Location: The Kingdom of Prester John
    There is a way to use lightmaps with the Doom 3 engine, but it's kind of tricky and requires outside 3d modelling/rendering software.

  17. #142
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    That's fairly informative, but I think you could get the same results as that example map right inside of D3 by using your ambients.

    If you were doing a daylit city a'la Half Life 2 then that'd be a must. But for smaller, more controlled areas you could use ambients and light textures to achieve the same effect.

  18. #143
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Why use them at all? Wouldn't you want dynamic lighting in Thief 2 levels?

  19. #144
    If you think all the shadows cast in the DarkEngine are real time, then why do you think ID kicked up a big fuss about their Doom 3 engine being the first to have 100% dynamic lights?

    The shadows created by the lights in DarkEngine are static, rendered during the map compile before it's released to play.

    The dynamic lights in the game can manipulate these shadows by making them lighter when they get nearer, but these dynamic lights don't cast shadows of their own.

    It is a waste of proceessing power to do all your shadows dynamically when most of them will never move. Even ID have realised this and are including support for static shadows in their next engine.

  20. #145
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by Domarius
    It is a waste of proceessing power to do all your shadows dynamically when most of them will never move. Even ID have realised this and are including support for static shadows in their next engine.
    D3 already does that to some extent. If you have a light that can't be turned on or off and doesn't move, the engine will precalculate it when it's loading the level. That way it doesn't eat any unnecssary CPU cycles.

    And I think what Aja is trying to say is if you have access to both, why not use them? He's not saying that Dark can do realtime lighting.

  21. #146
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic
    And I think what Aja is trying to say is if you have access to both, why not use them? He's not saying that Dark can do realtime lighting.
    Yes, thanks. Obviously dark can't do realtime lighting.

  22. #147
    Member
    Registered: Aug 1999
    Location: terrible canyons of static
    Actually it can do shitty real-time lighting, but not real-time shadows.

  23. #148
    BANNED
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt
    I know, I was mostly just saying that The Dark Mod will not do what the openDarkEngine project intends, which seemed to be what oDDity was implying.
    WHat exactly does this project intend? I can't see it having any purpose at all.
    No one is going to want to make new missions for it with the Dark Mod available (which it will be by the time this is finished), you don't need it to play OMs or FMs, all you need is Thief installed, and all of the Thief content is dated rubbish anyway, except for the superb sounds (which the dark mod can make use of as I outlined before) and the AI code/stim/response system (which the Dark Mod will at least equal and most likely better)
    If you're just making this for the hell of it and for the challenge, then fair enough.

  24. #149
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Well there are a few reasons.

    Ability to play on Linux without a single glitch (wine just doesn't work for me)
    Ability to play on new PC's where DarkEngine just stops working or is unstable or so.
    Engine improvements - dynamic shadows and lightning, reflections, model vertex interpolation (improved resolution of models)
    Free Code - So AI could be improved for example
    Modularity - making a new systems and scripting in new languages
    Different map and object formats loaders - For example Quake BSP. You cold maybe possibly load even doom3 levels if Irrlicht will have support for them in the future (so it would be even possible to make one executable to run Thief, System Shock and DarkMod levels)
    Fun - it is enjoyable to do this

    ... etc.

  25. #150
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Aaaanyway, anybody who is interested in the openDarkEngine project and wants to discuss it or help with it is invited to the opde-discussion forum on sourceforge:

    http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=517377

    (Although I politely request you to keep the flaming out of Sourceforge.)

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