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Thread: Thief: DS 'Collective Texture Pack' released.

  1. #1

    Thief: DS 'Collective Texture Pack' released.

    Well - it's finally out.


    Sorry to those of you who have waited for a long time and whom I've told "just around the corner now...". Things tend to take longer than you think or anticipate.

    Wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the Editing forum, but I thought it would reach more 'regular' game users in this forum.

    This new texture pack contains all my previously known textures, but most of them in updated versions, plus a lot of new textures and files. And so I have called it my 'Collective Texture Pack'. You will be able to pick and choose what features you wish to install.
    All in all there are over 500 files in this new texture pack. There are new menu backgrounds, new loading screens, new window, wall, floor, furniture, character - you name it - textures (the loading screens are however identical to the originals except for Garrett's appearance - well, you'll see...).

    And here's the link to the download page.

    I'm quite tired as I write this, so I'll try to keep this short:

    There is an Install Readme within the new installer which will explain pretty much any and every aspect of using the installer/uninstaller, and I'd recommend that you read it first, at least the parts that apply to you.

    The only advice I would give here, is that you - once you decide to go through with installation - let it "run its course" as it were, and don't click Cancel or otherwise stop the process even if you have the opportunity to do so. This will ensure that the install process should go smoothly and you'll avoid problems later.


    I have put up a new comparison page at my website. Unfortunately, I just now noticed that none of the images turn up in Firefox 1.5. And I have no idea why. I first thought it was because of my hotlinking protection, but they didn't turn up even after I disabled that (so I've enabled it again). If someone knows why, and what to do to make it work for Firefox users, I'd be happy.
    The pages and images should turn up just fine using Internet Explorer, however.

    I hope you'll like the changes I have made, and feel that it has its use.

    The installer must be considered almost 'beta', even though I've tested it extensively. With so many different computers and configurations, there may still be bugs. If you think you find a bug however - please read through the Install Readme, since I've already mentioned a few 'peculiarities' there.


    Good luck.

  2. #2
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by John P.
    Unfortunately, I just now noticed that none of the images turn up in Firefox 1.5. And I have no idea why.
    I'm going to guess that it's because you used backslashes in the image URIs, which, as an illegal URI character, Firefox quite rightly encodes as "%5C".

    Awesome work as always, but in many cases the new textures seem to be excessively "clean" compared to the originals. The Museum 2 shots in particular illustrate this. The Fort_Ironwood shot as well-- the original age-worn, rough-hewn stone blocks look much better than the brand-new, machine-cut look of the updated texture.

    Also, what's the point of side-by-side comparison shots if it's physically impossible to view the same part of both shots at the same time? If you must use 1024x768 res, doing half-screens would work better.
    Last edited by ZylonBane; 2nd May 2006 at 17:35.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Does it matter?
    Looking through the pics on the page, I agree with Zylon's comment that many of the nex textures seem too clean comparred to the original ones, which (though lower res) are grittier and seem to fit in better with The City.

    Still, that's not going to stop me from downloading the pack . I'm a big fan of all your older Thief: DS textures (I have almost all of them installed) so I have no doubt I'll end up enjoying these. I look foward to giving the game a run-through with the pack installed .

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Marlboro, MA, USA
    Wow, some of those are amazingly better! A couple I prefer the old version, but mostly I like the new, great work!

  5. #5
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Columbus, Ohio
    Wow, I must say (God, I am trying not to sound ungrateful) a lot of them do look way too 'clean'. Otherwise, great stuff, thanks.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Corvallis, Oregon
    Great job! I have some feedback for you (about the fifth time I tried to reply to this thread):

    Things I like:
    • The cave textures in The Seaside Mansion: Whoa!
    • The green wall in The Seaside Mansion: Nice attention to detail.
    • The clocktower: Holy ****
    • Clothing: Again, nice detail.
    • The Installer: Very slick.


    Things that I don't like:
    • The brick textures' normal maps are too square. I never seen brick shapes like those anywhere.
    • The stone normal maps lack variation. They seem too flat on the surface.
    • The stone "moss" in the Keeper library. It makes no sense whatsoever for an inside texture (the green stuff is either moss, or the Keepers have a bad mold problem). This was probably my pet peeve for the previous version as well.


    At any rate, I may scrap my texture work, or maybe just add speculars (maybe fix those normal maps), for the Realist Mod.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2002
    Location: Reno
    Wow, very nice John P. - some of those wood/stone textures are almost photo realistic! Thanks for doing one installer. The Thief series has the best modders I've ever seen.

    P.S. As mentioned above some weathering on that gray brick texture would look even better.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Australia
    OMG thanks soooo much!

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jan 1999
    Location: Same place as the lost pens
    Maybe that is not such a bad thing - compare thief 2 and thief 3. (Does anyone have a story-wise explination for why the city looks really run down in thief3 after thief2? I know there must have been some upset as the hammers reformed... but I would have thought that would have caused even more regeneration in the city - and yeah I know we see mostly the slums in thief3)

    -actually from looking at JP's excellent work there might not actually be an issue to address any more regarding how skanky the city looks... oh damn I am missing the episode of quantum leap with the evil leapers... the conclusion!! ((it was brilliant as always.)) - anyway, I prefer the cleaner look to the city, ther is no way it could get so trashed in the 1 or 2 years from thief 2
    Last edited by Raven; 3rd May 2006 at 10:47.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    John P.: Not to sound ungrateful, because you've done great work on these textures - but do you think there might be an update, making some of the textures more weathered and less clean? I'm asking because in this case I'd wait for that update.

  11. #11
    Thanks for the feedback!

    Oh - and thanks, ZylonBane - that was pretty embarrassing...
    -I've never made a mistake like that before (using backslash in HTML). I'm not exactly a web coder, so my web pages barely hang together by a thread, but I should have caught that.
    I'll also look into making the comparison shots 'split screen'. I already thought of it, but I was afraid it would be hard to show all the different things in each image that way. But I'll try and do something somewhat clever.


    Quote Originally Posted by ascottk
    Great job! I have some feedback for you (about the fifth time I tried to reply to this thread):


    Things that I don't like:
    • The brick textures' normal maps are too square. I never seen brick shapes like those anywhere.
    • The stone normal maps lack variation. They seem too flat on the surface.
    • The stone "moss" in the Keeper library. It makes no sense whatsoever for an inside texture (the green stuff is either moss, or the Keepers have a bad mold problem). This was probably my pet peeve for the previous version as well.
    Several of you mention that the new textures aren't gritty or worn enough, and I partially agree. But I'll explain why, and at the same time explain the moss on the rock wall in the Keeper Library:

    As I was remaking textures, I pretty much went from one map to the other, and stayed in one map until I felt I had remade the "worst" textures there, then I moved on to the next map.

    When I came to the museum, I wanted to remake the large brick texture, because it was used 'everywhere' in there (I have pretty much stuck to textures that would give the greatest impact). Now - this is inside, in a rather posh museum. I therefore didn't see why these large bricks/stones would become worn down or gritty in such an environment. So I found an image of a real brick wall (with large bricks), and made a tileable texture out of it, then a new normal map (more about the normal maps further down).

    This actually took quite some time, before I thought I'd got it right (for my own tastes). It wasn't until a lot later, when I found myself in Auldale, that it became a "problem". It turned out, that the same large brick texture was used to cover a lot of the buildings there (on the outside), but not the entire walls. So my new 'museum' brick texture now clashed big time with another, very similar (same texture family) texture.

    So I now had to remake that texture as well, to make one fit the other. Since I had already spent quite some time making the museum brick texture, I didn't want to begin from scratch again, so I used that texture when I made the other texture, which was used in Auldale (the textures in question are 'civwallb_d.dds' and 'civwallb_n.dds' only for the museum, then 'civwall512b_d.dds' and 'civwall512b_n.dds' for Auldale. All four are used in Auldale).


    This is a "phenomena" that has coloured several of my textures; I make a texture, it looks OK in one location - I then come to a new location and the texture doesn't fit so well there. It's weird, because this happens even if I try to stay close to the originals when it comes to colour etc. But often when you introduce detailed textures, it's easier to see misaligned textures etc., because a blurry texture meeting a blurry texture isn't as visible as a sharp and detailed texture meeting a another sharp texture. If that makes sense...

    So this is also the "explanation" for the rock wall texture in the Keeper library:

    That is an "outdoor" texture for most of the beginning of the game, and then suddenly becomes an "indoor" texture nearer the end. I did notice last time that it looked a little weird perhaps to have moss in the cracks inside the Keeper library, but I was quite happy with the texture, and rationalised it by thinking "Well - they did use moss and such as insulation in the old days", although I admit it's perhaps a rather weak rationalisation.

    But that's one of the problems of remaking textures for this game (and DX:IW); they are used all over the place - sometimes a little snippet of a texture is used together with another texture, to make a whole. So you never know where your new texture might wind up, so to speak.

    About the museum normal map:

    In addition to making a texture that was clean and looked real/detailed, I also knew I wanted to give the normal map more depth than the original has.

    Making a new normal map - with some real height and details - from scratch, which is what I've done for this texture (and the normal map for the rock texture in the "Before Mansion" screen shot, and a whole lot of other normal maps), only using Photoshop with the Nvidia normal map plugin, and in addition make it tile so that it can be repeated in all directions without visible seams, isn't easy. I have developed my own method of doing so, but it obviously won't be as good as if I had modelled the wall and made a normal map from that mesh.

    So that partially explains the normal maps and why some of the textures that perhaps should've been more rough and 'dirty', aren't, plus the moss on the Keeper library rock wall. As for the very square shape of some of the bricks - I have seen that kind of brick wall in real life. Perhaps I should take some photos and put on my web pages.

    I will of course take note of all of your observations though, and I agree with them to some extent, so I'll try to do something about it if I decide to make more textures for the game in the future.

    I think you shouldn't wait for an updated installer now, because it will probably be a while - right now I'm pretty exhausted. Perhaps later I'll make a 'patch' with fixed/new textures, so you won't need to download another 90MB.


    -If you want to install my wall etc. textures, but don't want those mentioned Museum/Auldale ones, you can go to Start\All Programs\Eidos\Thief - Deadly Shadows\Collective Texture Pack\, and click the shortcut to ibt_patcher.exe.
    It will look through all the textures at first, but once it's "settled down", you can scroll down the list of textures until you come to the texture names I mentioned above. You can then uncheck the checkboxes for those few textures, and when that's done, the original textures will show up in-game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raven
    Maybe that is not such a bad thing - compare thief 2 and thief 3. (Does anyone have a story-wise explination for why the city looks really run down in thief3 after thief2? I know there must have been some upset as the hammers reformed... but I would have thought that would have caused even more regeneration in the city - and yeah I know we see mostly the slums in thief3)

    -actually from looking at JP's excellent work there might not actually be an issue to address any more regarding how skanky the city looks... oh damn I am missing the episode of quantum leap with the evil leapers... the conclusion!! ((it was brilliant as always.)) - anyway, I prefer the cleaner look to the city, ther is no way it could get so trashed in the 1 or 2 years from thief 2
    -Thanks for providing a different perspective on things. Maybe I can get away with it now...

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: England
    Good job Yer, like others though, a lot are too "clean for me", like the wall thing you already talk about, has too "harsh" edges, but yer.

    You know the "pebbles in cement" style wall? I prefer the original of that - your normal maps are better but it's less "higglydey piggldey" and realistic it seems to me, and I just prefer the original sorry. and some of the other wall ones. Also, the rat beast whatever it is thing seems to clean.

    Sorry if I haven't explained this well enough

    just like i said in another thread that these 1 and 2 look too "manufactured to me and i prefer the originals. I am sorry, I don't know how to best explain it, but I hope you can see what I am getting at?

    Apart from that though, really good work Well done, must have taken quite some effort!

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    I think I'd go along with that. Very good job, but at times it looks too manufactured for my tastes. Still, I'll have to try both versions (once I get through Morrowind, which is taking up my time at the moment).

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2005
    Location: Vasa, Finland
    Looks awsome!!

    Will these also affect fm's?

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Great work John. I personally feel you've pulled a lot of the textures closer to the T2 style and helped to further tie the series style together.

  16. #16
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Columbus, Ohio
    Well, I relent. I just downloaded this (along with the Deus Ex:Invisible War offerings you have up), and they look great. The still screenshots really don't do them any justice. You really have to see these in-game (preferably at a high resolution...1280x1024 or higher)to appreciate them fully.

    Again, great job. Thank you very much for this, and all of your other wonderful contributions to the community,

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: Corvallis, Oregon
    Quote Originally Posted by John P.
    As I was remaking textures, I pretty much went from one map to the other, and stayed in one map until I felt I had remade the "worst" textures there, then I moved on to the next map.

    When I came to the museum, I wanted to remake the large brick texture, because it was used 'everywhere' in there (I have pretty much stuck to textures that would give the greatest impact). Now - this is inside, in a rather posh museum. I therefore didn't see why these large bricks/stones would become worn down or gritty in such an environment. So I found an image of a real brick wall (with large bricks), and made a tileable texture out of it, then a new normal map (more about the normal maps further down).
    I often use photographs as a base for textures. Here's a couple I did for the TDS community project:



    This tutorial for the GIMP came in handy:
    http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Tileable_Textures/

    This actually took quite some time, before I thought I'd got it right (for my own tastes). It wasn't until a lot later, when I found myself in Auldale, that it became a "problem". It turned out, that the same large brick texture was used to cover a lot of the buildings there (on the outside), but not the entire walls. So my new 'museum' brick texture now clashed big time with another, very similar (same texture family) texture.

    So I now had to remake that texture as well, to make one fit the other. Since I had already spent quite some time making the museum brick texture, I didn't want to begin from scratch again, so I used that texture when I made the other texture, which was used in Auldale (the textures in question are 'civwallb_d.dds' and 'civwallb_n.dds' only for the museum, then 'civwall512b_d.dds' and 'civwall512b_n.dds' for Auldale. All four are used in Auldale).
    I know how you feel The stonemarket and cemetary matlibs share the same textures.

    This is a "phenomena" that has coloured several of my textures; I make a texture, it looks OK in one location - I then come to a new location and the texture doesn't fit so well there. It's weird, because this happens even if I try to stay close to the originals when it comes to colour etc. But often when you introduce detailed textures, it's easier to see misaligned textures etc., because a blurry texture meeting a blurry texture isn't as visible as a sharp and detailed texture meeting a another sharp texture. If that makes sense...
    Stonemarket textures are reused from the cemetary (the hammer section), the church, the docks, the keeper compound/library, the mansion, and a few others. So it's hard to keep things cohesive when textures are reused in several different maps. Easy to understand.

    So this is also the "explanation" for the rock wall texture in the Keeper library:

    That is an "outdoor" texture for most of the beginning of the game, and then suddenly becomes an "indoor" texture nearer the end. I did notice last time that it looked a little weird perhaps to have moss in the cracks inside the Keeper library, but I was quite happy with the texture, and rationalised it by thinking "Well - they did use moss and such as insulation in the old days", although I admit it's perhaps a rather weak rationalisation.
    That's a bad design move on the original texture artist's part (seems to fit the general theme of TDS production), the outdoor textures should be separate from the indoor ones. We could separate the textures through the matlibs. That would mean, though, that the number of textures being used increases. TDS is hard enough on hardware as it is.

    Making a new normal map - with some real height and details - from scratch, which is what I've done for this texture (and the normal map for the rock texture in the "Before Mansion" screen shot, and a whole lot of other normal maps), only using Photoshop with the Nvidia normal map plugin, and in addition make it tile so that it can be repeated in all directions without visible seams, isn't easy. I have developed my own method of doing so, but it obviously won't be as good as if I had modelled the wall and made a normal map from that mesh.
    I often make normal maps from scratch as well with the GIMP. They may look good with only diffuse & normals, but when I added speculars, the normal maps' effects were lessened a great deal. So I revised the way I created normal maps. I used to manually create them using this method:

    http://66.70.170.53/Ryan/nrmphoto/nrmphoto.html

    That's even more tricky (creating four different bump maps per texture, each simulating a shot from above, below, left & right), & it's hard to get the colors right, which was why the speculars lessened the normal map effect. Now I just create a height map, use the normal map plugin (which is sometimes a pain, it interprets gradients as being angular, so I end up using a gaussian blur to smooth them out).

    So that partially explains the normal maps and why some of the textures that perhaps should've been more rough and 'dirty', aren't, plus the moss on the Keeper library rock wall. As for the very square shape of some of the bricks - I have seen that kind of brick wall in real life. Perhaps I should take some photos and put on my web pages.
    I've done a lot of research & photo hunting for my bricks. I haven't come across the square shaped bricks yet. I'm curious about those photos.
    Last edited by ascottk; 3rd May 2006 at 20:37.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: In bed with an octopus
    If we already have one of your earlier fantastic textures do we have to uninstall those before we install the collective pack, or will it replace them automatically?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Dopetastic
    If we already have one of your earlier fantastic textures do we have to uninstall those before we install the collective pack, or will it replace them automatically?
    You should uninstall them first. The textures would just become overwritten, but the overriding process of the original files is a little different, so my new uninstaller wouldn't be able to restore the original textures on uninstall if you do it that way. If that doesn't bother you, and you're not planning to play the game with the original textures again later (without a game reinstall), you can go ahead and install over the older packs. Another thing though is that there will be registry strings remaining from the old packs if you do this. Not really a problem, but over time, you don't want a cluttered registry full of unused strings.

    To ascottk:

    Thanks for that post, and the normal map link. I highly doubt I'll go through all that in order to create a normal map though. But perhaps I got an idea or two from it.

    Come to think of it, I actually didn't use the same method of making a normal map when I made the museum bricks as I did when I made the cave wall one. So I'll look into that as well.

    I too have used photos to a great extent when making this pack. The brick texture for instance in the Blue Heron is also from a photo, as is the cave wall. I have then made those photos into tileable textures, much like it looks like you did from the screen shots above.

    I'm not sure I've seen the square, very 'sharp' bricks in photos, but I've seen very similar in real life. I'll take a look and see if I can find some example. But by all means; if you look at the texture, the sides of the bricks are obviously very clean and 'straight', but I thought the height of the normal map would mask that to some extent. I may look into making those bricks more 'irregular' on the edges.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: cesspool
    ascottk, I hope you'll not stop your work on your own texture pack, I like your textures a lot, they look very realistic.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Location: Switzerland
    Quick addition: I installed Thief 3 again (after a year or so) this morning; then I installed the texture patch. While my earlier points re: the 'over-neatness' of some of the textures, the new textures are very well made and make the game look quite stunning in places. Thanks for your work!

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2006
    That wall texture in the library is simply amazing, as is the texture in the caves (Before_Mansion).
    For an alternative way of comparing them, you can have one shown by default and a switch to the other on mouseover. I have a poor memory for HTML strings but I nicked this from an Oblivion PC/Xbox graphics comparison: (Everywhere below that I have 'on Mouse Over' and 'on Mouse Out' I mean the same without the spaces- it keeps getting censored)

    (HTML BRACKETS) img on Mouse Over="document.name1.src='http://wherevertheimageis.com/blah.jpg';" on Mouse Out="document.name1.src='http://wherevertheimageis.com/default.jpg';" name="name1" src="http://wherevertheimageis.com/default.jpg" />

    The 'name1' is arbitrary- it just has to be consistent everywhere that it's written. Put the address of the image you want it to switch to at on Mouse Over="document.name1.src='...';" and the address for the default image in on Mouse Out="document.name1.src='...';" and 'src'="..." as shown (so that it will both be the default image and switch back to it when the mouse is no longer over it).

    Hopefully that helps. I'm sorry if you already knew how to do this and I'm just patronising you. Of course the main issue is that you need to store both images, and so need twice the space.
    Last edited by KingAl; 6th May 2006 at 06:57.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by KingAl
    For an alternative way of comparing them, you can have one shown by default and a switch to the other on mouseover.
    I did think of using some kind of mouseover effect, but was unsure of how it would work on various browsers and browser settings. Thanks for the tip though; I'll look into it.

  24. #24
    BANNED
    Registered: May 2005
    Location: Columbus, Ohio
    Yes, I love these. Thanks so much, every time I load it up I can't wait to get to the next mission to see the changes.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    I don't come here often but seeing as I'm working up to playing through Thief: Deadly Shadows all the way this time, all I can say is fan-fucking-tastic work, John P. Now I can play it as it is meant to be played - of course, I'll still be hacking out the loot glint and arrow trails.

    That clock upgrade and the Auldale mine shaft blew me away.

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