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Thread: Thief 2 FM: The Skygem Connection (27-12-2006)

  1. #76
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Quote Originally Posted by dyald View Post
    And to show my appreciation, maybe I'll get started on the next chapter.

    Is it done yet?







    *an hour later*


    Still waiting .....


    not trying to rush you or anything.


    *tries to control involuntary reflex action of foot-tapping*




  2. #77
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Indiana
    Sticky Fingers:

    You are right, I kept in mind all the comments (+&-) while putting this one together and was paranoid that I would make the same mistakes. What took so long is that my stupid computer craped out on me when the Fm was around 80% and I had to get a new hard drive, twice. so it took awhile before I wanted to mess with it again.

    Unless I'm wrong, & Dyald broke down in tears after reading the DiD thread...
    Bawled like a baby

    For those who are thinking they might want to tackle building their first fm:
    There has never been a better time, pretty much any problem you will have has already been addressed in the editors guild, you can do a search or ask a question. The guys and gals in there are great and seem to enjoy helping newbies. Your first fm may not come out as great as you hope but you WILL find out where you need to improve. Myself, I want to hear constructive criticism. Then I can make the next one more up to standard. in the DID thread I may have sounded a bit frustrated, but that was with myself not the people who posted. The biggest lesson I learned was to have patience, I purposely didn't set a release date for SGC until I was sure it was ready.


    Is it done yet?

    Yep it should be released tonight. it is a whole one room fm that has a full complement of two ai's and three textures, the good thing is the automaps were a breeze.

  3. #78
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany

    Music in movie; Partial solution to the zip file mystery

    MrMunkeepants, the music used in the briefing movie was "O Fortunata", from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana". Certainly not Mozart, as The Fire Eater suggested.

    A small bug appears in the loadout (=shopping) screen: The price tag for the gas arrow says it's price is 500 gold, but it's really 600 gold. In the original game, the real price was 500 gold, however.

    I have had problems with the zip files as well and have investigated the case. Here are the results, but be prepared for a long read. If you don't like it, search for "Conclusion" in boldface letters below.

    At first, I used DarkLoader 4.3, and although there was no error message, the results were bad. The game crashed instantly. Both sgc_wv_1.zip (version with briefing movie) and sgc_nv_1.zip (no briefing) were affected. After that, Thief 2 would not start again, even if I selected another mission. I found out that the cam.cfg file was altered; the game was now set to run without a 3D graphics card, which Thief 2 can't do. After replacing cam.cfg with the original file, Thief 2 was back to normal, but every attempt to start "The Skygem Connection" resulted in the same problem.

    I checked the three zip files (sgc_wv_1.zip, sgc_nv_1.zip, sgc_vid.zip) with unzip32 (Windows) and unzip (Debian Linux 3.1), and all reported "50 extra bytes" somewhere in the first two zip files. sgc_vid.zip (Xvid movie only, no mission) was processed without any errors or warnings.

    I unpacked the two mission archieves and packed them again with Linux' zip. Unfortunately, Thief 2 still crashed the same way as before. I played another mission, Thief 2 crashed while playing, and then even a complete re-install of Thief 2 and DarkLoader did not help: The game did not run anymore, and Windows itself became unstable. I do not know whether this instability was caused by Thief or Windows, or both.

    I restored Windows from a backup and re-installed Thief 2 and DarkLoader 4.3. I downloaded all three zip files again. Suddenly, things were different.

    unzip and unzip32 still said something about "50 extra bytes" when unzipping or testing the two zip files containing missions, while the zip containing only the video still yielded no error message. However, when I started the mission from DarkLoader 4.3, everything worked. Maybe I got two bad downloads the first time?

    DarkLoader 4.1, however, was not happy yet, and said "Error in Zip structure" whenever I started it or clicked on the two mission files. It did not allow me to play the missions. DarkLoader 4.2 behaved like DarkLoader 4.3 did.

    Since the zip/unzip-DLLs shipped with DarkLoader 4.2 and 4.3 were considerably more recent than the ones from DarkLoader 4.1, I copied those DLLs into the directory where DarkLoader 4.1 resided. It still complained. When I removed the DLLs, DarkLoader 4.1 did not work. Thus, 4.1 really used those DLLs and not any DLL from Windows. Now why did 4.1 complain, but 4.2/4.3 did not?

    Deep within the file History.html in the DarkLoader directory, the author mentioned changes to DarkLoader since version 4.1. The last change for version 4.2 reads "Suppress some of the messages from ZipDLL". I guess that the message "Error in Zip structure" is one of the messages which are suppressed now. Apparently, DarkLoader 4.2/4.3 just says nothing when encountering an apparently damaged zip file, prays for the best, unpacks the file and starts Thief 2. DarkLoader 4.1 at least tells us there's something wrong.

    Since the file contents seemed to be okay this time, I unzipped and re-zipped the sgc_wv_1.zip file with Linux' zip/unzip programs as well as with Winzip 8.1. Every resulting zip file was accepted by DarkLoader 4.1 and yielded a playable mission with the briefing movie.

    I used all available compression levels in WinZip 8.1, and all resulting zip files were playable. None of them was of the same size as the original file I downloaded, so something did change when doing the unzip/re-zip trick.

    I assume that dyald uses a zip program which can create zip files deviating from the zip standard (if there is any...), but does not always do so, since the zip file containing the Xvid movie is not affected.

    By the way, MP3 compressed sound in a video is not a problem for any DarkLoader. MP3 sounds in videos are not handled by DarkLoader or Thief, but by the proper (Windows) codecs instead. Only files containing in-game sounds have to be converted from MP3 to WAV format because Thief handles those files. DarkLoader has to convert them before Thief will recognize them. Thus, the MP3 compressed sound in the video is completely unrelated to the problem here, regardless of whether one uses DarkLoader 4.1 or 4.2/4.3.

    Conclusion: While I have no explanation for the crashes with my first download, there is some problem present with the two zip files which contain missions. Unzipping and re-zipping sometimes works, sometimes it does not. The movie inside one of the zip files obviously is not the source of the problem. Rather, the zip program used by dyald creates zip archives which are somehow "non-standard", thus creating problems with zip utilities not familiar with those types of zip files.

    WinZip 8.1 (Windows) and Zip (Linux) seem to create standard zip files, but I would not be surprised if there are more zip programs which do this.

    MP3 compression in videos is not handled by DarkLoader. Only conversion of in-game sounds in MP3 (or OggVorbis) format has to be done by DarkLoader and thus requires version 4.2 or above.

  4. #79
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Indiana
    baeuchlein:

    I used winzip 9 but I also split the files with a program called masterspliter into smaller files so I could upload them easily.
    Every time I zip up something I always will get a different file size, I have in the past done repeated zips to get a slightly smaller zip size when every byte counts.

    Thats beside the point, What I get out of that is that the problem with the file probably is a result of the spliting process. I imagine that if I just use winzip to split it, that might just take care of it.

    the music used in the briefing movie was "O Fortunata", from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana".
    I was kind of wondering if ayone got that.

    This info is a great boon for me if I can fix that, and I would Like to say thank you for the work you did in tracking it down. If my file in any way caused you any problems, then please accept my apology. Am I right in assuming that you have a perfect files A result?
    Last edited by dyald; 8th Jan 2007 at 12:25. Reason: cain't spail

  5. #80
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Sheffield, UK
    Quote Originally Posted by dyald View Post
    ...Yep it should be released tonight. it is a whole one room fm that has a full complement of two ai's and three textures, the good thing is the automaps were a breeze.
    YEEEEHAAAAAAAAA

  6. #81
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    YEEEEHAAAAAAAAA
    Seconded, thirded, and fourthed!!!




    *does a little dance in front of her confused cats*

  7. #82
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: The Den
    awesome mission! absolutely loved it! hey did any taffers find the
    spoiler:
    tunnel in the stream by the temple that led to that secret place where you can dance with karras and the zombie lady?
    it's hilarious!

  8. #83
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Bay Area, N. CA
    Well sorry about mistaken ID for music in Vid..but it sure sounded like part of the Opera that he wrote when his Father died (as per the Movie that came out several years ago). But then again maybe that was just the music that was played while he was writing the Opera instead (think he was supposed to be on his deathbed at the time as well?). Too long ago for my memory to remember properly about it.

  9. #84
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: The Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fire Eater View Post
    Well sorry about mistaken ID for music in Vid..but it sure sounded like part of the Opera that he wrote when his Father died (as per the Movie that came out several years ago). But then again maybe that was just the music that was played while he was writing the Opera instead (think he was supposed to be on his deathbed at the time as well?). Too long ago for my memory to remember properly about it.
    I thought the music choice was GREAT and very well chosen! Wasn't it the music from the movie "The Omen" or "The Excorsist"?

    She-Thief: Yeah!! How great is this easter egg??!!!
    Did you also found the
    spoiler:
    way into the building right outside when you leave the hollow tree? ........I mean .......through the water!
    ?

    Gloria Creep
    There're angels who playThief and angels who don't ........ both go to heaven ............
    Dare to join .............

  10. #85
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Bay Area, N. CA
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria Creep View Post
    I thought the music choice was GREAT and very well chosen! Wasn't it the music from the movie "The Omen" or "The Excorsist"?
    Gloria Creep
    The music used in the briefing movie was "O Fortunata", from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana, as per thread above. Don't know if your referring to the opening Video as I was trying to do or if your trying to ID music in game itself? I haven't played the game as yet so I don't know about that at all.

  11. #86
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Indiana
    I think they did use O Fortunata in one of the omen movies. on every cd I've seen there is two versions of the piece, at the begening and at the end. I used the one at the end because it has a bit more energy in it.
    The fire eater:
    We are working on the zip problem and I am confidant that it will be resolved in the near future.
    Last edited by dyald; 9th Jan 2007 at 10:16. Reason: added something

  12. #87
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2006
    Location: The Den
    Quote Originally Posted by Gloria Creep View Post
    I thought the music choice was GREAT and very well chosen! Wasn't it the music from the movie "The Omen" or "The Excorsist"?

    She-Thief: Yeah!! How great is this easter egg??!!!
    Did you also found the
    spoiler:
    way into the building right outside when you leave the hollow tree? ........I mean .......through the water!
    ?

    Gloria Creep
    Yes, I did

  13. #88
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: The Netherlands
    She-Thief:

    spoiler:
    when you're swimming in the watertunnel, there's an opening to the right towards a little space. Climb up and click the red button on the right, behind you. A door opens which will lead you to the iron platform where you can control the crates. I mean. You can drop one there.


    Gloria Creep
    There're angels who playThief and angels who don't ........ both go to heaven ............
    Dare to join .............

  14. #89
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2006
    spoiler:
    I got to the library basement where the keeper comes and opens the passage to the tunnels for me. I saved after he left, but after I reloaded there was a bug and he said the latter half of his speech again while standing off to the side facing backwards, and then the secret passage closed (I guess he's set to frob it at the end of his speech, and due to the bug he frobbed it again after it was already open.) I reloaded again, and went down the passage before he closed it. What I want to know is should I bother to continue playing, or would I have to start over because at some point I'll have to come back up the passage and won't be able to due to the bug?

  15. #90
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2006
    spoiler:
    I don't know how to fix the conversation bug, but you could prevent the keeper from closing the passage by having him send his signal through a relay trap with the "Once" control flag.

  16. #91
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Bay Area, N. CA

    (or OggVorbis) format has to be done by DarkLoader and thus requires version 4.2 or above.

    I have seen something somewhere regarding Ogg type files but can't remember where...? However, in this instance, are those files used by Thief 3? If so then I wouldn't necessarily need 4.2/3 for that as I don't have that game nor will be doing any Mods for it consequently. I have also read where more work was needed to be done for Darloader 4.2 and/or 3 so I'm hesitant in getting it yet but when it's really good for using I probably should upgrade mine just because I guess. This one has served me well for a long time so I really felt no need to replace.

    I still would like to know from someone that has Darkloader with a sub-folder for Missions attached to it. Would it be safe enough to reinstall the newer version for Darkloader over the one I have or must I do otherwise? Thanks for assist.

  17. #92
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Indiana
    Eigenface:


    I'm not sure that is a bug I can fix.
    spoiler:
    The good news is, once you leave the archives, you don't have to go back.
    When you saved it the conversation was still technicaly still going on, (untill the keeper stops walking). I think it is already set to "once". anytime I have saved it in a conversation it starts back in the conv but not in the exact timeline. I think if you saved it in the middle of a conversation in any mission including om's the same could happen.


    The Fire Eater:
    Would it be safe enough to reinstall the newer version for Darkloader over the one I have or must I do otherwise?
    Possible solution: Darkloader only takes about one meg of space, how about installing 4.2 in its own dir then when you set it up have it point to the folder where you have your fm's? then forget about the older version.
    Last edited by dyald; 10th Jan 2007 at 12:41. Reason: added some

  18. #93
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2001
    Although I didn't find it on my own, She-Thief found the secret with the dancers near the temple via the side water tunnel.

    Want to give us a hint on the other secret?

    - prjames

  19. #94
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Indiana
    I can't think of a clever hint, so here is one that is extreeemly vauge,
    spoiler:
    the other one is in the archives
    If a player finds and tells, thats ok, but I think that is as much as I should give.

  20. #95
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2004
    Location: Germany
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fire Eater View Post
    I have seen something somewhere regarding Ogg type files but can't remember where...? However, in this instance, are those files used by Thief 3? If so then I wouldn't necessarily need 4.2/3 for that as I don't have that game nor will be doing any Mods for it consequently. I have also read where more work was needed to be done for Darloader 4.2 and/or 3 so I'm hesitant in getting it yet but when it's really good for using I probably should upgrade mine just because I guess. This one has served me well for a long time so I really felt no need to replace.
    I do not know whether Thief 3 uses OggVorbis files, but DarkLoader 4.3 (or any previous version) cannot be used to start missions for Thief 3 (Source: DarkLoader Homepage, http://www.thiefmissions.com/darkloader/).

    There is only one mission I've encountered which is said to use OggVorbis files, "Mountain Monastery" (in German: "Das Bergkloster") by Christine, build for Thief 2. There are a few others which use MP3 sound files and thus require DarkLoader 4.0 or above (Source: History.html in DarkLoader directory).

    If you refer to the problem with the INI file getting larger than 64 kB, there's no change from DarkLoader 4.1 to 4.3 (as far as I know) - it neither gets better nor worse.

    So, unless you encounter a mission specifically stating that it uses OggVorbis files (or Ogg files), you can stick to version 4.1 and wait for the next release.

    Quote Originally Posted by dyald
    What I get out of that is that the problem with the file probably is a result of the spliting process.
    I have downloaded Mastersplitter and split and re-joined a few of the zip files created, including the original sgc_wv_1.zip and my "repaired" version. Worked well, no problems. Maybe the split files get damaged during the upload process, or maybe the one receiving your upload uses another version of Mastersplitter?

    Quote Originally Posted by baeuchlein
    the music used in the briefing movie was "O Fortunata", from Carl Orff's "Carmina Burana".
    Quote Originally Posted by dyald
    I was kind of wondering if ayone got that.
    Easy to do if you like that particular piece of music and know exactly on which CD you find it...


    Quote Originally Posted by dyald
    If my file in any way caused you any problems, then please accept my apology.
    No apology needed, I guess, since you didn't do anything on purpose, did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by dyald
    Am I right in assuming that you have a perfect files A result?
    If that means "superb performance in school", then the answer is: Not exactly. I was good, but almost never perfect. But the strange thing with the zip files was an interesting mystery, and when I started examining the situation, my interest in solving this riddle grew. Actually, I find this kind of detective game funny (as long as I am making progress, at least).

    And since I finished your mission yesterday, I must say it was worth it. You are hereby sentenced to creating a sequel for your vile zip-splitting crimes.

    Oh, one last thing: I encountered another small bug. I found two frogbeast eggs, but when I throw them at something, they make a sound like a large rock thrown around. They remain at the point of impact, as if glued to the spot. No frogbeast appears. This bug was present in one or two other fan missions, but I don't know their names anymore.

    When I restarted the mission, the eggs behaved like they should. Weird.
    Last edited by baeuchlein; 10th Jan 2007 at 17:48. Reason: Huge number of errors found

  21. #96
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2006
    Location: Manchester, UK.

    great fm!

    Dyald,

    this is a great fm! i really enjoyed playing it. it was not too difficult and there were still plenty of interesting
    things to do in the mission. i particularly liked;
    spoiler:
    the monster in the tunnels - it was very scary !

    and;
    spoiler:
    helping sarah escape by showing her dewdrop

    plus;
    spoiler:
    the egyptian architecture was cool .

    but what i liked best was;
    spoiler:
    karras and his zombie-friend dancing to that track by 'the doors'! LOL !

    There was a bug, near the picture in T's bedroom but in re-loaded the game and just avoided that area. i hope you
    get it fixed.



    well done,
    Nightstone .

  22. #97
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Bay Area, N. CA
    baeuchlein...thank you for your help as well as Dyald re: Darkloader. I think I shall wait in that case. Already played Christine's mission, which in spots was a bit of a problem overcoming certain areas, heh, but played fine The other .ogg files were in another game I have as I rediscovered the other day. I think it was the demo for Gothic 3 (also bought the game but am very disappointed in the limited number of fixes that haven't addressed other important bugs) but have not installed it as yet due to that fact!. It has other very good qualities but some of these bugs are really putting a damper on it

  23. #98
    Archivist
    Registered: Sep 2002
    Location: Museum of the Ancients

    Good mission dyald Excellent work
    At some aspects it exceeds Damsel in distress. No city and mansion this time, but a keeper compound, a cave complex and an old temple. it's not as big and long as the first mission, but more linear which makes it clearer about what to do and where to go.

    The briefing movie worked really well. The way the history of the Skygem (before Damsel in distress) is explained, the style of the art, the change of the drawings, and of course the music.
    I immediately knew that it's from the Carmina Burana when I heard it. When i was 10 years old i sang this in several child concerts, including O Furtuna.
    Great to hear this again in a Thief mission .

    The camvator sequence is also a nice extra before starting the actual mision. I watched it several times to fully understand and see everything. And it was pretty humurous because of the scene outside the window on the streets, and a part of the conversation between Garrett and Keeper William :
    Keeper William: knocks on door
    Garrett: "Go away!"
    Keeper William: unlocks door, walk inside and locks it behind him "Garrett, we must talk".
    Garrett: "That was locked for a reason"


    Another nice Garrett imitation, SlyFoxx (where would Garrett be in fm's without your voice!) and also compliments to the voice actor who did Keeper William. Very clear and well spoken.
    Sadly i couldn't hear the other conversations clearly because they were so soft.

    Thanks to the movie, camvator sequence and the readables, the story about the Skygem is fully explained, and continues perfectly from the first part of the series.
    More information is explained during the mission and new surprises appear, like the side quest about Gilly and her daughter Sarah, who are caught by Talanvor. Using the doll to let poor Sarah follow Garrett is a nice idea, a little different then in Saints and Thieves where you could highlight the children in order to halt/follow.

    I knew we would see the villain Talanvor again. That he is the one who knows of the way to get back to the real world after placing the gem back in it's original place.
    Quite a surprise to see that he continued his evil plans and has a whole new base of operations.


    The mission has some interesting locations, like the hidden tomb, and the keeper's Training Course (finally another mission where Garrett can test his skills). Mocktown was really brilliant, with the wooden copies of townsfolk and guards placed in the streets. The first time i saw the guard i thought: huh, why doesn't he move. The old temple is also a nice creation, with the mechanist style design, crane control system, the force field and the alternative way of entering the temple (which was really useful).
    A few things that were dissapointing are the absence of custom resources. The architecture is pretty good, but there is not so much variation in the style and this made the mission a little plane. At least to me.
    Also it is pity that the keepers are not transparent like in other keeper missions as 'A Keeper's Betrayal' and 'Equilibrium'. it would've made infiltrating the compound a bigger challenge.

    Overall it's clear that there's was a lot of time spent to make this a worthy sequel: the story, the (auto)maps, the voice acting, the movie and camvator sequence, the guardians, Talanvor's base of operations and the new design of his army, the secret grammaphone and dancing ai's, the puzzle of finding the code, rescueing Sarah, i loved every part of it
    Not a very difficult mission in the type of "Where do i have to go now", but some clever puzzles, traps and hidden things give it just the bit of progress-slowdown it needs. A mission to recommend!

    Quote Originally Posted by dyald View Post
    The next fm's name is a clue and much more is explained in it. I have still left out more of the details in it in case I make a third.
    It didn't became Clue, but Skygem Connection sounds even better

    I really hope you make a third part, dyald. This story is definitely not over yet.
    Now it's Garrett's job to enter the portal, place the skygem back in it's original place and use Talanvor's teleportal statues to return to the real world after the portal is collapsed.
    And i expect that Talanvor comes after Garrett in the third part, because he spoiled his plans twice now. That should be an interesting confrontation
    .

    A question:
    -There is a scroll in Mock Town that says:
    If someone borrowed my good hammer, please return it.
    Can this hammer be found in the mission? Sounds like a valuable artifact for Garrett to take with him.

    Statistics
    Difficulty played: Master
    Time taken: 1 hour, 34 minutes, 32 seconds
    Loot found: 1710 out of 2185
    Secrets found: 1 out of 2
    Last edited by The Phantom; 15th Jan 2007 at 18:09.

  24. #99
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2001
    Location: 0x0x0
    ...and also compliments to the voice actor who did Keeper William. Very clear and well spoken.
    Thanks!


  25. #100
    Member
    Registered: Oct 2006
    In the room with the masks, what is the code that opens the door? I have looked everywhere and can't find it...

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