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Thread: Engage nerd frenzy: HBO does Ice and fire

  1. #201
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by PeeperStorm View Post
    I really did not need to see Pycelle doing squats in a flimsy nightshirt while backlit.
    Clearly it's for the ladies!


    also:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxLOXUGmRKI

  2. #202
    Still Subjective
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Idiocy will never die
    Well, Scots, I'm not in a position to comment on how good the adaptation is. What I can say is I've enjoyed this series and although the Mountain is very much a background character so far Jaime comes across as an entirely detestable character to me.

    Season finale was mixed but had some great moments, and I'm glad I was right about Daenerys. The actress is a little hit and miss but that plotline is exciting to say the least.

  3. #203
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: sup
    Let's begin with the good:

    • Production values: generally great, they obviously had to cut one or two things to meet budgetary constraints (CG landscapes, massive amounts of extras, an entire battle or two) but the overall value prevailed. Given how popular the show has become it's unlikely that we'll have budgetary issues facing Clash of Kings.
    • Dany's storyline: what often fell flat for me on page really took on a life of its own in the show, particularly the second half of her arc after Viserys is dispatched. I always found the Dany chapters somewhat boring so it was nice to see them pop a little onscreen.
    • The Wall: it looks amazing and I think despite Jon's character growth being stunted (blame the source material there), the way all of that plays out is pretty much how I envisaged it.
    • The acting was generally excellent, I have very little problem with the actors. In fact all of them with the exception of Viserys do pretty excellent work. I have more opinions on how they've chosen to interpret the characters in the writing as opposed to their acting.
    • From episode 3-5 I think they developed Ned and Robert's relationship well to set things up for the quick slide into chaos on the later half of the season - I think they could have focussed this sooner though and achieved more from the characters.
    • Characters:
      • Robb: I feel much more for his arc in this incarnation than I did in the books this early and it *major spoiler* sort of broke my heart seeing he and Cat resolve to kill the Lannisters and really wanting them to succeed yet knowing where it all goes.
      • Ned: Hamstrung early on by not having enough screentime to flesh him out beyond a foolishly noble man, he really earned our investment towards the end. Sadly, the show is more definitive in Ned's demise than I felt Martin ever was - intended or not - and I fear I may have to put my longtime hope of Ned surviving to rest. :'(
      • Tyrion: dodgy accent aside, he and Bronn's adventures have been a bright spot of the show thus far. He pretty much nails it and I can't wait to see what he gets to play with in the next season when he goes to court.
      • SYRIO FUCKING FOREL: There was one character who you just KNOW from the way they filmed it he's coming back.


    The bads are also numerous:

    • The opening slew of episodes move far too quickly and really make it obvious that this should have been a 12 episode season and not 10 episodes. There's simply too much to cover and as a result characters get short shrift, which lessens the impacts of certain events, or they just hamfistedly jam in motivation/exposition/foreshadowing where it's not appropriate because they just *have* to lay groundwork somewhere and their time is running short on where to do it.
    • Characters:
      • The biggest offence for me is Littlefinger - between the horrifically on-the-nose laying bare of his motivations and drives, he was far too moustache-twirling for my liking. You, as a reader, only came to understand just how much influence Littlefinger had later on than what they've set up here.
      • Secondary to this is Varys, it's like they've done a switcheroo on Varys and Littlefinger - again, both of their motivations and modes of behaviour are reflective of where you feel they end up closer to the end of book 3/4, but less reflective of who you saw them as at the start. For example: I didn't think you could trust Varys at all in book 1, whereas the TV has him as an honourable character constrained by his environment, with Littlefinger pulling all the strings. I could be wrong but I felt this was not how they portrayed them in the first book.
      • Jaime, the work they did early in the piece to soften the "Kingslayer" was one of the timing missteps I spoke of above and is another missed opportunity for later character development.
      • Shae, bit of a head scratcher to be honest - they've completed changed her, at least at this very early stage. She had some level of control over Tyrion but it was through appealing to the massive gaping wound in his psyche from the Tysha incident, not through appealing to him on an intellectual capacity.
    • HBO's mandatory Tits to Plot ratio had some poor choices in it - the biggest offender being the opening episode's treatment of Dany from being a series of fairly traumatic events relegated to close-up breast-squeezing and softly-shot doggy-style tittilation. The fingerbanging prosititutes was probably the most ridiculous use of gratuitous nudity I think HBO have ever done, however it's not as bad as what those scenes often lead to...
    • Sexposition info-dumps: you can just see the HBO execs sitting around a table worrying "Hmmm, too much talking, not enough beheadings (subtitute beheadings for "whackings' for Sopranos) let's shove some tits in their face to keep them awake". This give birth to Ros, the actively listening hooker who is present for not one, not even two, but THREE sexposition exposes. Christ almighty, I don't know what's worse - the whole concept or the terrible dialogue that litters these scenes. So on-the-nose about character motivations and backstory that you just cringe.


    Now, let's get onto the fun part and start speculating about season 2:
    • Will it be called Clash of Kings?
    • Who will play Quorin Halfhand, Stannis Baratheon and Melisandre? Juicy roles for sure.
    • What elements of later books do you think they will drag into season 2 - mark these with spoilers for the non-book-readers amongst us. eg. I reckon Jaime's incarceration and loss of hand will play in season 2
    • What scene are you looking forward to/dreading the most in the next season? BATTLE OF BLACKWATER FUCKKKK YEAHHHHHH and Snow killing Quorin

  4. #204
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    Latecomer to Game of Thrones; so what else is new? Never read the novels, but now I'm contemplating doing just that since it's going to be almost a whole year before GOT season 2 comes out. Have to admit that it was boredom and Sean Bean which led me to watch the GOT pilot. And then I was hooked.

    I'll also admit, being a hardcore Sean Bean fan, that I had the same seriously disappointing feeling upon seeing Ned's beheading that I had watching Boromir bite it in LOTR(even though I knew it was coming in that one). S. Bean is such a phenomenal actor that I was looking forward to more from him in this series. However, the rest of the cast are actors accomplished enough and the multiple plots sufficiently convoluted to keep me interested. Could have done without some of the gratuitous sex scenes but I guess they felt filler was needed here & there, though
    Pycelle doing squats in a flimsy nightshirt while backlit
    almost made me start bleeding from my eyes.

    I'm looking forward to seeing Dany's (that's how they spelled it in the info section on the HBO guide) arc unfold. I do admit that I find myself hoping she ends up succeeding in taking her homeland back (the people of the North were once loyal dragon worshippers, right? So I'm hoping they'd be safe from her revenge - I'm thinking of little Bran & his seriously weird littler brother while typing this.) Even though I saw the dragon-hatching coming from a mile away, I still found it compelling.

    Also can't wait to see how Sansa handles her future little douchebag husband, finding out Shae's mysterious history, what becomes of Arya & her new BFF, the armorer's apprentice (who seems to have his own mysterious-but-not-really background arc going on), and just plain enjoying more of Charles Dance's exquisite performances as Tywin Lannister. And finding out just what the hell is on the other side of The Wall.



    I will, however, seriously miss Jason Mr.-Eye-Candy-take-me-I'm-yours Momoa.

    Last edited by Dia; 28th Jun 2011 at 12:01.

  5. #205
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    In time...in time.


    And then it just fades out for the season with Dany and her Dragons and Joffrey kicking off what promises to be a cruel reign. It's like HBO should not force people to wait almost an entire year, on a series that people can say "fuck it" and pick up the books and be through the entire series half way before the next season comes out.



    Oh, the blue balls of it all.

  6. #206
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    AWAKEN YE DEAD FROM YE SLUMBERS,
    ARISE FROM THINE EARTHLY MINISTRATIONS
    SO THAT THOU MIGHT LOOK THE LIVING IN THEIR MILKY EYE
    AND SCOWL IN SILENT DISAPPROVAL

    So... we're almost at the end. There have been songs, there has been ice, there has been fire. And there's been a truncated final season that trades depth for visceral immediacy, and chainguns plot points like bullets into the audience without giving them enough time to care about the pawns it's moving across the board. Game of Thrones? Game of Thrones. I've not felt so conflicted over something before, in that it did a lot of things well over the years, but now serves up a penultimate episode with almost perfunctory closure to some long-trailing threads. It's disappointing, and yet we've had some incredible moments so far that I wouldn't think of trading. I figure in the harsh light of day the visuals may fade, but my feelings over the lack of depth will deepen. I suspect that GRRM and D&D did the best they could, but I can't help but wish they'd done years of blood and piled-up tragedy more justice.

    Ah well. This is just a reaction post, not a critique. But I figure it's as good a time as any to reopen this thread for just that.

    (Also FYI Varys didn't deserve to go out like that, Jaime and Cersei would have made more sense if there'd been some actual, I don't know, plan or thread that either of them had before dying by rocks hitting them on the head, Dany's snapping into fire murder queen was forced, Arya's sudden about-turn after eight seasons of murderous intent in the wake of Clegane's unsolicited advice was... forced, and Tyrion was one of the worst-served characters this entire season. Frankly, the most interesting character was Drogon. My boy won the war all by himself! *so Euron killed Viserion entirely by chance, it appears, and can't kill a one-armed man in melee combat. So much for that walking shitheap. GAME OF THRONES? GAME OF THRONES.)
    Last edited by Sulphur; 13th May 2019 at 06:51.

  7. #207
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    I haven't seen the latest episode yet. Shall do so tonight. But I've been thinking about how to capture the direction it's taken, and I think I've tracked down the issue. It started loosing its power when the show detached from the books, and I don't think that's an accident. It's not that things were simplified. The show was already simplifying the books, and it was doing a fine job at boiling down complicated things into coherent scenes. And I trust that D&D are keeping the general gist where the books are going.

    But where I think the book-show connection was most important was that the books were giving guidance to how the plot should be packaged in the mid-level ... not the top-level (overall plot) nor the ground-level of individual conversations. But the middle-level of connecting plot points and the logic of relationships and events, I think Martin did a masterful job and thought through all of that in writing the books, and the show just took a lot of that as it was. It was pre-thought-out for them, and they got the direct benefit of it. But once it detached, the show lost that, and they didn't have the time or talent to fill in all that content at that level of thoughtfulness, even if they knew the overarching plot arc and could still write interesting individual scenes. Losing that mid-level connecting plot tissue is what's plagued the show since the books ended. That's my hypothesis. I'd have to go back and watch it and pay attention to see if that's really the issue, but that's my intuition.

    I feel like before we were watching the actual events as they were occurring, and I feel like now we're watching a dramatization of events by authors that weren't really there and trying to make the best of the scraps of the legends they had at hand.

    That way of thinking is informing how I'm watching these episodes... like someone that's invested in the "actual events" watching the dramatization to get an idea of the actual events, and how the story actually pulls itself together towards the climax. So I'm still invested in it, but not like if it'd maintained that thoughtful plotting it had earlier on, where I think the real heart of the show is.

  8. #208
    El Shagmeister
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Under your fingernails.
    Still enjoying it, but certainly had to gradually temper my expectations in the last few seasons.

  9. #209
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    @dema: while I've not read the books apart from half of the first one (GRRM's prose style is... tiring), I'd say your assessment jives with something I've been feeling for the past bunch of seasons, which was the nagging sensation that characters I used to enjoy seeing on the screen were gradually devolving into ciphers and plot points. The authorial confidence you could normally take for granted (and where that feeling of satisfaction is derived in that you know someone's got an intricate, well thought-out plan for the future) was slowly lost. If nothing else, it means I'll probably have to eventually wade through Martin's writing to get that feeling back.

  10. #210
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    One interesting thing I read, one thing that could very easily show that the writers were planning tonight's events well in advance (or could at least well versed in ass pulling enough to make it look so), is the prophecy shown during the season 2 finale.

    It's not snow Danerys saw raining down on the iron throne in the ruins of the Red Keep. It's ash.

  11. #211
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Though all things considered, I'm coming to the conclusion that GoT is ultimately doomed by its source material. That there's so much story left for GRRM to tell, that it's all of such grand scope, and that there's only so much budget that HBO can give the show, these last 2 truncated seasons worth of episodes were destined to read like the cliff notes version of what's probably the true intended ending.

    Nothing that happened tonight came entirely out of left field, but since we're being delivered the fast forwarded version of the story, scenes that could've given tonight's events more impact, given it all more detail, have been glossed over, so it all feels like it's building things up way too fast.

    That's not to say I'm not enjoying it, but I think that the show needed 3 full seasons to flesh things out, and HBO probably couldn't afford it.

  12. #212
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    holy christ the first few pages of this, what a time it was

  13. #213
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    and that there's only so much budget that HBO can give the show, these last 2 truncated seasons worth of episodes were destined to read like the cliff notes version of what's probably the true intended ending.
    HBO told D&D that they could do 10 episodes per season, for seasons 7 and 8. Despite that, they chose to do 7 & 6 episodes. Grrm has told them he thought they needed 3 season (7, 8 and 9) to wrap up the story properly. That was another 30 episodes after season 6. D&D chose to do it in 13 episodes. GoT was the biggest hit-series of HBO. I don't they think they wanted it to end. In fact, they encouraged D&D to take more time. They were ok with more seasons. But D&D didn't take the opportunity. They could have done a better job, but they didn't care.

    I think D&D were tired of the show. It was 10+ years of their life. They were done with it. They had gotten their praise. They had gotten their reputations out of the show, which will allow them to find work for the rest of their lives. They have a new contract with Disney to do Star Wars things. They didn't care about GoT anymore. It's that simple. It also became clear that D&D were good at adapting stories to the screen. They are not good at writing.

    It's a shame. The root cause of course was the fact that GRRM is a lazy bastard. Who couldn't plan properly. And was overly optimistic about what he could achieve. He had the opportunity to create the greatest fantasy series ever written or showed on screen. But he messed it up. I doubt him releasing the books will fix that. I doubt he will finish the books even.

  14. #214
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    greatest fantasy series ever written, bold words my friend even if it was just an opportunity

    actually wouldnt mind hearing from stitch, scots what they thought of the finale

    also can you stop saying "D&D" cos all I can think of is owlbears
    Last edited by PigLick; 13th May 2019 at 09:46.

  15. #215
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Someone said somewhere that the final 2 books are done, and that GRRM has a contractual deal with HBO to not release them until the show is complete. Probably total BS, but who knows.

  16. #216
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Dungeons and Dragons for me. Which GoT has heaps of.

    I think GoT has fallen into the exact same pit that many anime fell into, where they were following the source material (manga in this case), then reached the point where the final few seasons weren't written yet, so went off on their own tangent, to their detriment. Many anime have fallen victim to that. All had sucky to average final seasons.

    For me, it was the final battle with the army of the Night King that was the biggest disappointment. Too many characters had plot armor. Don't get me wrong, it was the most epic battle I've ever seen on TV. But half of it, you couldn't see because it was too dark.

    Season 8 should have been 100% about the battle with the Night King, then have another season or so to THEN deal with Cercei.
    Last edited by icemann; 13th May 2019 at 13:24.

  17. #217
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I had written down some words about GoT and the producers here.
    I just watched S08E05.
    I think every word written, every thought about this tv-series, is wasted.
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 13th May 2019 at 17:47.

  18. #218
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2016
    Location: Trollinus Maximus

  19. #219
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren View Post
    Someone said somewhere that the final 2 books are done, and that GRRM has a contractual deal with HBO to not release them until the show is complete. Probably total BS, but who knows.
    Just so you know: this rumour irritated GRRM so much, that today he actually responded to it.
    http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2...-the-internet/

  20. #220
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Wish you hadn't edited/deleted that last entry Gryz. It made a whole lot of sense and provided some great insight into the differences between the show and the books.

  21. #221
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    I am a sad and bitter little man. When I post my opinions on Internet-fora, and read them back later, it reminds me of how sad and bitter I am. That's not fun. No matter the subject, it seems I can not comment on anything without being negative, nihilistic and bitter.

    I kinda gave up on GoT during season 6 or so. I did watch all the episodes in S6-S8. S08E03 didn't bother me too much. But tonight I watched S08E05. And it was just one big let-down. It was like watching a Transformers movie. FFS. Someone should sue Dave&Dan, get them in court, get them convicted, and then behead them in public. I am so sad how they butchered everything I liked about ASOIAF. I'll stop now.

    Video on Dany: https://old.reddit.com/r/freefolk/co...e_well_at_all/

    Comparing S08E05 with LotR (long, but very good post): https://old.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comm...ouring_of_the/
    Last edited by Gryzemuis; 13th May 2019 at 20:52.

  22. #222
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    Haha, we're all Bran now.


  23. #223
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: Canuckistan GWN
    The problem is largely organic. Stories get more complex over time and any series will eventually become top-heavy, usually about the time that viewers are getting fatigued. Subplots and sub-subplots get ignored, excused or hastily (not) resolved. Unfortunately the main plots may suffer as well.

    Characters start doing out of character things. Nobody wants to take charge of the writing, it seems, and the man who should, is bored.

    For me the grating annoyance is the abyssal military strategy and tactics. Doesn't Westeros have the equivalent of a Sun Tsu? Didn't a single advisor think to explain that Danny didn't need to torch the whole city, just the Red Keep. Kill the Queen, become the Queen, and get all her stuff too! Derp. And just how many sheep and shepherds does a dragon have to eat to generate enough fire to torch a million people? Is Drogon like one of those infinite ammo mounted 50 cals you can find on most shoot-em-ups?

    The sad thing is, it didn't have to end this way.

  24. #224
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Danny going from how she'd been in the rest of the series to mad queen within 3 episodes is stupid.

  25. #225
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Quote Originally Posted by icemann View Post
    Danny going from how she'd been in the rest of the series to mad queen within 3 episodes is stupid.
    The snap could've been done better, but she's been subtly broadcasting her crazy for a good, long while now.

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