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Thread: Thief 2 Gold?

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault View Post
    For individual missions that might be interesting, but I can't see how you'd get a whole cohesive campaign done that way. And I think that's what most people are interested in.
    Yes, but as of right now this is going no where fast. Most would want a full campaign of course, that would be years, even then, will those missions just end up idle on someones comp. Could happen. I am not knocking efforts, just depends on how long we all want to wait. If we had a time frame, that would help, there is no time frame.

    In the end, it might be better off released as a contest, and see what happens, things would for sure happen a lot faster, you know people would jump on it. Just some thoughts. I'd rather see them released in a contest, and have something done with them, then stalled, and not be released at all.

    Something is better than nothing.

  2. #27
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: someplace better than this
    i disagree. i mean, it's, what, just four missions? it can't possibly take you guys as long as T2X took, especially since you don't have to come up with all the extra assets that T2X needed. (let's just ignore CoSaS for a bit, hm? ) i think you should make a concerted push to get some stuff done, with monthly updates, and in a year from now, see where you're at relative to where you were in 2007.

    shame that nicked left, but a project losing its leader isn't always the death of said project- the goldeneye source project is still going strong 'cuz of the passion they have for such a shitty game. c'mon, don't you guys love thief? of course you'd like to see this stuff finished, right?

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    My concern with the project, from the very beginning, was that there was talk of going to a lot of extra work to create 'new' content. When you start doing that...you increase your work load a LOT.

    To get this project finished in a reasonable amount of time, I suggest the following.

    1. Only use T2 textures that came with the original game. Yes, we are all familiar with them by now...but it will keep the missions looking like they were made back in the day. It will also keep the download 'minimal'.

    2. Try to use 'only' the existing AI characters. There might just be enough 'un-used' conversations to make the missions. Only create new voice sets as a LAST resort. Do as much as you can with readables.

    In essence, pretend you're an LGS designer...and all your sound/ texture designers have been let go, due to budget constraints, in order to get T2 Gold out the door.

    Keep it simple, and a few experience Dromeders could have these missions out within the next 12 months.

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by dethtoll View Post
    i disagree. i mean, it's, what, just four missions? it can't possibly take you guys as long as T2X took, especially since you don't have to come up with all the extra assets that T2X needed. (let's just ignore CoSaS for a bit, hm? ) i think you should make a concerted push to get some stuff done, with monthly updates, and in a year from now, see where you're at relative to where you were in 2007.

    shame that nicked left, but a project losing its leader isn't always the death of said project- the goldeneye source project is still going strong 'cuz of the passion they have for such a shitty game. c'mon, don't you guys love thief? of course you'd like to see this stuff finished, right?
    What he said

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by New Horizon View Post
    My concern with the project, from the very beginning, was that there was talk of going to a lot of extra work to create 'new' content. When you start doing that...you increase your work load a LOT.

    To get this project finished in a reasonable amount of time, I suggest the following.

    1. Only use T2 textures that came with the original game. Yes, we are all familiar with them by now...but it will keep the missions looking like they were made back in the day. It will also keep the download 'minimal'.

    2. Try to use 'only' the existing AI characters. There might just be enough 'un-used' conversations to make the missions. Only create new voice sets as a LAST resort. Do as much as you can with readables.

    In essence, pretend you're an LGS designer...and all your sound/ texture designers have been let go, due to budget constraints, in order to get T2 Gold out the door.

    Keep it simple, and a few experience Dromeders could have these missions out within the next 12 months.
    Listen to NH. He is showing wisdom.

    .j.

  6. #31
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Solabusca View Post
    Listen to NH. He is showing wisdom.

    .j.
    Well, I can't claim to be wise...but experienced..yes. Everything needed to finish these missions is already at our fingertips. A year has passed already? They really should have been released for beta testing by now.

    How many mappers are on this team now? If you can get one mapper per mission, each mapper should do a 'phase' of each mission...just to keep things fresh. Stage one could be texturing...then when the texturing is done, pass each mission to the right {with notes on your ideas for the map} and have a different mapper look at it. It will make the process a bit more interesting, since you'll get to play in the world another mapper has begun, and make improvements to it. By the end, each mapper should end up with their original mission for tweaking / bug testing and final revisions.

    Set an alpha stage deadline of 3 months from the day everyone begins. Surely there must be experience mappers who would be willing to get behind this and get the levels out.

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Wellllll...

    Perhaps Brother Renault could enquire after some of the 'lost resources' that are working on TDM to refresh their DromEd skills...

    .j.

  8. #33
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I'm not sure what everyone else's vision of this project is, but to me it's a lot more than just taking the three released .mis files and texturing them. Thief Gold expanded The Dark Project's story a bit, but most people know that Thief2 was rushed out the door to meet a deadline. The whole game could use at least a minor overhaul. Many thing need to be considered, such as:

    • Plot - what are these missions about? What are the objectives? Probably going to need a bunch of readables to explain it all.
    • Continuity - where do these missions fit into the T2 timeline?
    • Modifications - what needs to be changed in the OMs so that these new missions fit in cohesively?
    • Briefings - at least five new briefings, possibly changing or editing existing ones.
    • Maps - five new (ingame) maps are needed as well.
    • Conversations - these are of course optional, but have you ever played a Thief level that didn't have at least one?

    None of this includes any kind of custom AI or items, as are mentioned many times over in Emil's notes.

    A few very select custom textures are optional, but would be a nice touch for an expansion such as this.

    Also keep in mind that two of the five missions need to be created from scratch (Waking The Dead and Fallen Hammers). And we're not talking about contest sized missions here, there need to be OM size to match the rest of th e game.

    While were at it, Casing and Masks could use a makeover.

    Need some custom menu art for the final release.

    Did I forget anything?

  9. #34
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    You're talking about several thousands of work hours. How many people does the team consist of?

  10. #35
    jtr7
    Guest
    Did I forget anything?
    Probably....

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault View Post
    Digi made the announcement about the released T2 Gold missions exactly one year ago.
    Thanks.

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: May 2003
    Location: Tannar Appreciation Society HQ
    I think it should have some custom stuff, as many T2 missions introduced something new

  13. #38
    jtr7
    Guest
    Ideas are great. Implementing them requires people to take the time, do the work, and stay committed--barring the unforseen circumstances life brings.

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2001
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    Ideas are great. Implementing them requires people to take the time, do the work, and stay committed--barring the unforseen circumstances life brings.
    Yup was thinking the same thing. All this talk is fine, ideas are great, until something concrete happens, as of right now, it's pretty much dead in the water.

  15. #40
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Dussander View Post
    I think it should have some custom stuff, as many T2 missions introduced something new
    That's cool and all, but introducing custom materials requires extra work. These also aren't just any old T2 FM's, these were official missions and in building them, we should stick as close to the source as possible.

    If one of the missions 'absolutely' requires a custom texture or two, that's fine...but I truly feel it would be a massive increase in productivity to simply focus on getting the missions built with the existing assets...it will also help maintain a cohesive feeling when they are added to the original missions. They shouldn't stand out as being 'custom' fan made missions...they should in theory look and play as if they were built by LGS.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2006
    Location: Deutschland
    By the way, judging from those raw mission files, can anyone see some kind of way of work that the LG guys had? Does anybody build his fan missions in the same way or is this completely new, with all those roughly brushed houses, few textures and so on?

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2003
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg Cúthalion View Post
    By the way, judging from those raw mission files, can anyone see some kind of way of work that the LG guys had? Does anybody build his fan missions in the same way or is this completely new, with all those roughly brushed houses, few textures and so on?
    There is an article by Tim Stellmach in DromEd documentation, which describes their design methodology. Stellmach called it "stepwise refinement". It's a variant of the general approach that prevails in professional gamedev (although the details vary, because they are engine-dependent). I've used both "stepwise refinement" and the naive room-by-room approach, and found the former much better. I've also witnessed several low-budget projects go down in flames, mostly due to improper workflow based on the naive approach that lacked the preproduction phase.

  18. #43
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Just to make it official - although I'm sure most of you guessed it already anyway - this project is officially dead, dead, dead. At least as far as my involvement in it. Not that I ever had a monopoly on the Thief2 Gold idea or anything, but if anyone wants to take it up at this point, you won't have any competition or comparisons to any existing project. In other words, it's all yours.

    In some ways, I really would have liked to see this project happen (The necromancer castle in particular always intrigued me, as some of you know). In other ways though, when you really look at the "released" mis files, you realize there was tons of work to do and not much information to go on. The most difficult part imo was trying to wedge some of these missions into the existing T2 plotline, and most times to me it just felt way too forced.

    So, good luck to anyone who wants to give it a shot, I wish you the best...

  19. #44
    Moderator
    Registered: Jan 2003
    Location: NeoTokyo
    So what are you going to do with all the work, files, notes, discussions, etc, that have gone in to it so far? You should probably upload it all somewhere to give it a secure home ... maybe Yandros's upcoming site? I'm sure it will be taken up some time by someone, and they would really appreciate the work. But you can't be sure when they might turn up. Anyway, just a thought.

    Edit: Also, for the record, since I care about this project and what these missions mean, I should say it's too bad that it's fizzled out in two attempts ... but I can't blame you or nicked, since it really is a big project. Thanks for doing the good work, and at least advancing the ball on this project for those that will come later. I feel pretty sure it will be accomplished someday and your contributions will be very appreciated.
    Last edited by demagogue; 17th Oct 2007 at 16:57.

  20. #45
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon
    demagogue is right. Can you use the website you set up to host everything you've done so far? It doesn't have to be for naught. Maybe someone else can pick it up the same way you picked it up.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Renault View Post
    Just to make it official - although I'm sure most of you guessed it already anyway - this project is officially dead, dead, dead.


    This is sad. What happened? These missions were special. Surely enthusiasm could have been sustained for a year to finish off these missions?

    As I've said from the beginning. Keeping it simple and using original content, these missions could be finished and ready to roll out in a year. How many missions were there again, 4?

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    It does sound forced to have to integrate these oddball locales into the original Thief 2.

    They should be standalone missions. Instead of Thief 2 Gold, it should just be Thief 2 EMs, Extra Missions.

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Jashin View Post
    It does sound forced to have to integrate these oddball locales into the original Thief 2.

    They should be standalone missions. Instead of Thief 2 Gold, it should just be Thief 2 EMs, Extra Missions.
    There must be a way to do it, considering they were meant to be Thief 2 Gold missions originally.

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    I don't know. I always figured Thief to be this locational-oriented game where a series of cool locales are thrown together with a story latched on to facilitate the thiefing.

    Thief's never gonna take you to a place where there isn't anything worth stealing for example. And even if there is, there has to be someone around to protect all that stuff from you. That's why I think the creature levels are nowhere as exciting as the human level, cus there's no relationship (hence no fiction) b/w the creatures and the valuables. They're all just...there. The cradle is a special case, its originality made up for the aforementioned.

    Now this necromancer mansion is interesting cus you can have a long list of unconventional loot, and part of the story can have you go on to try to sell the loot to special interest parties, or make something out of it yourself. The potential for fiction here is enormous.

  25. #50
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon
    There was no mandate by anyone that this group of people were to be the ones to develop the mission fragments and design journal into a finished Thief 2 Gold product. The content was released more than a year ago to all and any could have done anything with it in the interim period.

    My suggestion is, wait a bit after the Hammerite Contest is over. Maybe January or February. Then someone with experience in running these contests select one and only one of the T2G missions and base a contest around its completion. It doesn't even have to be the "first" of the missions - any will do. I suggest the academy mission, as it's the one we have the most material on. One of the criteria for winning should be how well it fits in with the rest of Thief 2. It will be up to the contestant to determine HOW it fits in with T2 - i.e. where in the mission fits in; is it mission five, or mission twelve? If this goes well, then do the same for the others, but with the added victory condition of including the previous victor as part of the missions it must maintain continuity with.

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