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Thread: Death system really ruins the gameplay?

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004

    Death system really ruins the gameplay?

    (NOTE: please keep this thread SPOILER FREE)

    So excited after the demo, I puchased BS today and have thus completed some 5 hours of Hard mode. I haven't quite noticed how this came about, but I suddenly realized that the spooky and careful, varied gameplay has turned into a complete mindless meat-grinder. And then I realized why...

    I feel with plasmoids, various gene upgrades, weapon upgrades and different weapon types, the gameplay balance and variety is really great for a modern FPS. However, all this balance is severly, or day I say, completly fucked up due to the death system... or lack thereof.

    The reviving machiens destroy any incentive to actually think in this game. Sure, they were done in SS1 / 2, but the BS's ones suffer from 4 major flaws:

    1. They are always on from the start, so there never is a time when you cannot die (note: I haven't finished a game so maybe that changes, but I doubt it)
    2. They are free. no penealty whatsoever; as a matter of fact...
    3. You get rewarded for dying. Why? It regens half your health AND eve. So I don't even use eve hypos anymore, just wait until I get killed and blam, got half my eve back.
    4. They're too numerious (several in a level), making the "if you die you need to start all over" issue pretty much non-existant.

    So what is the end result? I just run around with my wrench, using only as much of my plasmids as eve I have in a single bar (when I runout I switch before my guy uses a hypo). When I die, I get revived and get back to the place I died within 5-10 seconds (!) This is especially ridiculous in the "semi-boss-battles" where there is ALWAYS a reviver behind the boss-arena door, and in some cases in the same room. So smack with the wrench, die, come back, rinse repeat until everyone's dead.

    And needless to say, playing on hard, for the past 2 hours I have had maxed out on First Aid / Hypos, Revolver, MachineGun, Shotgun and rocket launcher ammo.

    I think I'm going to give myself a challange of not allowing myself to die because, honestly, the death system gives NO INCENTIVE whatsoever not to get killed. A brainless "run in, die, repeat" approach is even preferable, as you don't waste as much time, ammo and eve.

    ---------------------------

    On a semi-related note, does anyone else feel the game is more of a "run and gun" than tactical shooter? I seriously can't take cover because, due to lack of leaning, as soon as I peek out the enemy sees and shoots me. The muzzle flash covers half my screen meaning I can't effectively rapid-shoot either. And with a few enemies on screen, throwing granades, smoke bombs, shooting revolvers in the tiny rooms, everything get so chaotic I really don't see like I can do much besides running around and whacking my wrench blindly or just shooting the machinegun here and there.


    It was really interesting in the begining (medical plaza) when you were faced with 1, maybe 2 enemies at a time and the turret / camera you could hack, there seemed to be so many awesome strategical approaches and the hand-to-hand wrench battle is one of the most fun melee in all the FPSes I've played. But somehow, later on, when the big guns come in, enemies get replaced with smg shooting and granade spouting heavy armorers that come in groups of 4, and when you realize there really is no reason why you should try not to die... it just seems so... braindead..?

    EDIT: watch this to see what I mean: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBEJ2v-74gw . It's not an isolated case, it's like this with every single encounter.
    Last edited by Yakoob; 22nd Aug 2007 at 20:03.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    I think vita-chamber should be disabled on hard mode..

    game really got easy due to revive system.

  3. #3
    Agreed. There should be more of a penalty for being revived in a vita chamber, not sure what would be best though. Maybe taking weapons away, or leaving them where you die? Hmm, can't remember now how SS2 handled, but it seems like it was done better.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Chemistry
    In SS2 dying cost 15 nanties and a full heal at a med bed cost 5 nanties, so there was a slight disensentive to dying. And then at the end there weren't any ressurection chambers.

    Vita-ressurection should cost some dollars or something.

    Best thing to do is play like the vita-chamber's aren't there and save/reload frequently.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by cloud4me View Post
    I think vita-chamber should be disabled on hard mode..

    game really got easy due to revive system.
    Or have a really heavy penalty for using them. Like it costs Adam or something and make it that you start with virtually no health or eve. That way you would only use it if absolutely neccessary.
    How hard would it be to mod something like that?

    I'm completely dumbfounded that Irrational have made this decision. It completely destroyed Prey (deathwalk) and looks to be ruining all the careful balancing they must have done with plasmids etc. I don't understand why you would want to completely remove all the challenge from the game. Okay for an easy mode the way they are is fine but why ruin it for people who like a challenge? I just don't get it and I really hope this isn't going to be a trend.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by d0om View Post
    Best thing to do is play like the vita-chamber's aren't there and save/reload frequently.
    I'll probably do this but it won't feel right since I'll be seeing vita-chamber's everywhere and realising that I'm playing this way because of a bad design decision.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2007
    Location: free koki
    Well, I should probably start by mentioning that I haven't played the game yet (not even the demo), and won't do so for another couple of weeks, until I move and get a new rig (this one is not up to the challenge).

    However, the respawn concept struck me as a possible problem from the moment I learned of it. Also saw a little bit of footage a couple of days ago from a guy who was taking on a Big Daddy. He must've died and respawned, like, twenty times. Needless to say he wasn't even making an effort to stay alive.

    Oh, and...
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakoob
    as soon as I peek out the enemy sees and shoots me
    Shit. Saw some of this in Half Life 2, and what can I say, Hitler cat was not amused.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2007
    I think there should be at least one mode with no vita chambers, extreme mode or something like that.

    I got the same impression on them when I first played the game though in the end enemies are quite harder and sometimes you´re really thankful that they exist, but to me, they probably should have been done in a different way, at least when you fight a big daddy. In that case if you die, you should be dead. It would make those combats really epic.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    I disagree.To me it means you can never get out of the Rapture hell hole even by dying.You are caught in an endless loop of splicer hell until you actually find a physical way out.
    It saves having to reload and reload.......and it is still tough to with only half health half eve as the minimum you get when you come out.The challenge is still there.
    A society with this kind of mentality would have done this if they had the means to do it.
    a cost penalty wouldn't be bad but the whole idea of it enhances the play and the fiction for me.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Location: San Jose, CA
    You take your games too seriously my friend!

    Try not to take this game as the second coming of Chr*st. It's not! Just take it for what it is!

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Seems to be a common thing in gaming these days...don't inconvenience the player by actually giving them consequences. Bioshock sounds like a really cool game from what I've heard, but at the same time...here it is suffering from a lot of the same issues PC gamers have been begging for it not to suffer from. Having played on both sides of the fence, I find a good majority of console gamers demand this type of forgiveness in their gaming...PC gamers generally prefer something a bit more challenging.

    It reminds me a lot of TDS, when all the annoying bits were left intact...even on the expert level of difficulty.

    I'll be waiting to see what is addressed in a patch before I buy. I want a PC game, not a console game.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: The Doldrums

    I think the simple addition of an On switch might have made a lot of difference. Maybe it can be modded in via the editor, if we ever get it.

  13. #13
    LittleFlower
    Registered: Jul 2001
    Location: Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by jizzlobber View Post
    I'm completely dumbfounded that Irrational have made this decision. It completely destroyed Prey (deathwalk) and looks to be ruining all the careful balancing they must have done with plasmids etc. I don't understand why you would want to completely remove all the challenge from the game. Okay for an easy mode the way they are is fine but why ruin it for people who like a challenge? I just don't get it and I really hope this isn't going to be a trend.
    It is simple.
    This game is a console game.
    We should be happy that we are allowed to buy and play the game on our PCs. But the true audience is console gamers. And those are dumb. Or at least, game developers suppose they are dumb. And lazy. And they suppose they have no attention span.

    Solution for developers: make games that are simple and fast. The movie industry has been doing this for decades already. They make simple, fast and flashy movies for teenagers. If adults wanna watch a movie, they can chose to watch such simplified crap, or not watch a movie at all. Gaming has catched up a few years ago already. It's the same thing. Your choice is to play a simple flashy game, or go read a book.

    Thief was an example of this. Splinter Cell is another. There are many more. It is unlikely you will ever see a game again which is slow, requires a lot of thought, does not have "action moment" every 60 seconds, were you can make steps "backwards", where you have free roaming, etc. I haven't played Stalker yet, but I've read there's much more freedom in that game. That is only because those dumb russians haven't caught up yet. If developers would build games with free roaming, the average console player would skip 70% of the content, and go straight for the endgoals. That would be a waste of developer resources. So modern games will be linear. If there wasn't action every 60 seconds (which would help suspense, imho), kids would complain the game is boring. Games are made for the large majority of grey and unimaginative people. Therefor the majority of games will be grey and unimaginative. And simple.

    Bioshock has enough nice things to make it worth playing. Just don't expect it to be the perfect game. Those won't come anymore.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Yeah every time there is a feature you don't like it must be consolitis.Gee we're not quite sure people know how to save and reload as if it is fun waiting for the game to load again.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFlower View Post
    It is simple.
    This game is a console game.
    We should be happy that we are allowed to buy and play the game on our PCs. But the true audience is console gamers. And those are dumb. Or at least, game developers suppose they are dumb. And lazy. And they suppose they have no attention span.
    Man I remember when console games were much harder than there PC counterparts due to not being able to save anywhere, only at checkpoints. Mario 64, Resident Evil where challenging games.

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2006
    Location: Washington DC
    The vast majority of console gamers are kids. If they die twice in a row somewhere, they whine 'It's too hard!' and give up.

    Honestly, has anyone here met a serious PC gamer younger than 14?

    Consoles are cheaper. Therefore parents buy them for kids. Therefore, a significant proportion of console gamers is made of kids.

    So yes, console = simplistic, run and gun, no penalty for dying gameplay.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    I hope kids aren't playing a game like Bioshock. . .

  18. #18
    Thing What Kicks
    Registered: Apr 2004
    Location: London
    And some console games are STILL challenging; Ikaruga, Dead Rising, Resident Evil 4, Viewtiful Joe...

    Now the games that AREN'T challenging are those ones made by developers who have traditionally made games for the PC but get greedy and want some of the sales figures from the console audience.
    For some reason, they almost always assume that console gamers are not as good at games or as sophisticated as PC gamers, so they end up over-simplifying their titles.

    To me, that's what consolization really means.
    It's not a game becoming simplified because it needs to appeal to simpler gamers; it's ignorant PC developers thinking that they need to make games simpler.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    dying in a game.You have been challenged
    dying and resusitatingYou have been challenged.
    And you must backtrack in the game potentially meeting other foes.More of a challenge.
    It doesn't mean what went on before you die is any less challenging.

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2000
    Location: Chemistry
    If you can kill a boss by running up to it and hitting it with a wrench one, dying, ressurecting, repeat * 100 and not use any ammo/eve/health then something isn't challenging.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by paloalto90 View Post
    dying in a game.You have been challenged
    dying and resusitatingYou have been challenged.
    And you must backtrack in the game potentially meeting other foes.More of a challenge.
    It doesn't mean what went on before you die is any less challenging.
    I've heard there is no respawning in Bioshock though, if this is true you won't be encountering anybody on the way back to where you died. Also the vita-chambers seem too plentiful for you to do any serious backtracking. It also effectively means you have unlimited health and ammo for your plasmids.
    It seems you like the idea which is cool but why can't there be an option for players like myself? And there are alot of us. Prey had the same problems and alot of people didn't like it.

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2004
    Location: Reykjavík, Iceland
    Prey was a cakewalk because of the spirit world after you die. And Bioshock does have respawning, I asked about this in another thread and the answer was yes.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2001
    Location: Tatry Mountains, Poland
    Yes, these machines really do ruin gameplay. Watch this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBEJ2v-74gw

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Hamilton, New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjossi View Post
    Prey was a cakewalk because of the spirit world after you die.
    Thats my point, the vita-chambers are almost the same thing apart from you don't get spawned right back where you died but back at the chamber which never seems to be that far away anyway.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by catbarf View Post
    Consoles are cheaper.
    That was true years ago, but not anymore. I could go out to the electronics store today and find a desktop/monitor for the price of a console...and in many cases, less. A desktop doesn't have to be $2000 today to play a PC game...only if you want bragging rights. Consoles are certainly not cheap anymore.

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