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Thread: Cancel Culture and the Rise of the False Claims

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia

    Cancel Culture and the Rise of the False Claims

    I go in knowing that this one is a real powder keg of a topic. But it is one worth discussing and debating all the same. this video that I just watched got me thinking about this topic.

    For many years now, we've had #metoo and similar campaigns against people that 110% deserved it (eg Weinstein). But with all good intentioned campaigns, comes the bad, with false claims placed against various people that are later proven (whether it be in a court of law, or that the original claimant deletes their claim if it's an online one, revealed to be lying etc) by those who seek to destroy someone for whatever reason (whether it be jealousy, they just randomly hate the person for whatever reason etc).

    Even after being revealed as false, the damage is already done as the accused persons life is destroyed regardless of the outcome. To use an online example, one of my favorite Youtuber's Angry Joe (aka Joe Vargas) had sexual misconduct claims made against him online recently, and then as soon as he announced that it was complete bullshit and that he was getting his lawyer involved, the claimant immediately deleted their post (about the claim) and disappeared off the internet. He's not why I made this thread, it's just been a growing concern of mine.

    The negative side to this, is that when false claims are made, it creates a narcissism by many to such topics. So when actual claims are made that are fully 100% true come up, many just don't believe them at all due to so many of the false claims happening, which hankers back to the "little boy who cried wolf" thing.

    So that is one side to this.

    The second side (And one in which I feel that is a bad side to the internet keeping a permanent record of every word and thing done by anyone for all of history (since the internets creation), is taking things said and done by people years / decades ago, and then holding it up as a permanent judgement against that person as a statement of who they are and that regardless of what they do that they cannot change. That is who they are for all of time.

    So should something said / done by an individual be held against them for all of time, or can people change, and should we then only judge the person by who they are today? Or is one forever tarnished by past actions and can never change who they are?

    Such is the cancel culture world that we live in today. And I'm very curious on opinions here on this. Now going in, I am not for a second saying that people like Weinstein are acceptable. Hell no. But say you made a racist tweet/status update on Facebook 10 years ago. Is that who you are for all of time? Or can we change as people. Should there be severe punishments for people who make false claims, or should they be left to get away with it and disappear off to the ether?

    To speak on my opinons of both sides going in:
    * For part A - I think that people who make false claims against someone should be put in jail / have some major legal penalties placed on them for doing so, otherwise they will continue to do so such false actions
    * For part B - Pre-internet days, I was raised on the strong belief that a person can change. That as human beings we make mistakes in our lives, and it is what we do in response to those mistakes that matters. Do we continue along that course (for which that is not is a mistake, that's a lifestyle), or do we realize our mistake and spend the rest of our lives correcting that mistake

    Some of part B comes from religious stuff I was raised on (my mother is catholic, my dad is atheist), but that is my belief.

    Anyways feel free to discuss. Keep it civil. No personal attacks or insults. Debate only. I've said all I'm going to in this one post. I shall leave the rest to all of you.

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2009
    Location: thiefgold.com
    My concern with all this is nowadays truth is not based on objective facts, but rather:

    - Who can make their provocative / edgy Twitter status go viral
    - Who can most viciously excoriate their opponent
    - Who can best flood social media with their narrative (its veracity notwithstanding)
    - Who's better at highlighting facts that support their narrative, and burying whatever contradicts it

    And the saddest part is there is no real objective media (some of the vilest media outlets are those that most exalt themselves as objective and free). People love their personal views of how the wold works, and they'll do everything to push them as gospel truth.

    Moreover, cancel culture is spearheaded by people in their early 20's, who think they know everything, who think their trivialities are more serious than real atrocities that happen around the world.

    Regarding the OP, one of the most disturbing things I've witnessed is people on Facebook stating that all claims should be believed by default. Besides targeting innocent people, this will hurt real victims the most in the long run.

    Once a narrative dominates, everything that supports it (real or fake) will be taken as truth
    Last edited by Azaran; 3rd Jul 2020 at 14:24.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    110% agree with all of the above.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Sure is such a scary time for boys, huh?


  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Back Home
    Contrapoints made an interesting video about her own canceling (also spends a lot of time talking about James Charles) which covers some of these concerns and so on, but also the effect it had on her personally. She wasn't accused of rape or assault or anything (rather, being a TERF).


  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    wait whats a TERF again, I know dethtoll explained it to me but I forgot

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    never mind so its a ball bashing bitch then eh?

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Ireland
    I think the most dangerous thing is that the false claims are now a tool being heavily used by certain political factions to try discredit their opponents. No matter how ridiculous the accusations are, someone will believe them, often the media will repeat them without verification because they were said by someone important, and the politicians never get into trouble for the false claims.

    This is one of the main things that has lead to the rise of dangerous populist governments around the world.

    And, as always, all of those false claims make real claims much less likely to be believed.

    People have realised that you can draw attention away from a fact that can be held against you by very loudly and insistently claiming the opposite of that fact and drowning out the actual fact itself.

    Populists claiming to be against "the elite" while they themselves are the elite.
    Liars claiming that the media is against them, even when the media heavily favours them, or spreading lies while calling any counter-fact "fake news".
    Racists accusing others of racism, shouting loud enough that no one will point at their own.
    And so on.


    The end result has been... hundreds of thousands of unnecessary and preventable deaths by pandemic, because these people have twisted the narrative enough to get into positions of power that they are not competent enough to hold.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: Edmonton
    Quote Originally Posted by PigLick View Post
    wait whats a TERF again, I know dethtoll explained it to me but I forgot
    A person who hates trans people under the pretense of feminism (which, if you’ve watched any Contrapoints videos, it’s abundantly clear she is not).

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    I read as much about the Chris Avellone cancelling as I could on Twitter, and as far as I could tell he just lost a pile of jobs because a.) he was a raging alcoholic 5-10 years ago b.) he made awkward passes on people 5-10 years ago while drunk and c.) he and some girl he was dating had an awkward breakup. I don't know anymore. Like, I'm 100% against sexual assault (having been sexually assaulted myself) but some of this shit is insane to me. The Louis CK shit is insane to me. People fuck, sometimes in the course of attempting to acquire said fucking awkward things happen. Yes, it shouldn't happen when someone is in a tangible position of power over someone (and I'm saying tangible, because "being a respected person in a field tangentially related to yours" isn't the same thing), no someone should not touch/fuck/talk-to/whatever someone when they tell you not to. Some of this stuff...christ I dunno. I've been on both ends of bad breakups, I've been on both ends of someone being pressured into sex, I've been on both ends of being drunk and awkwardedly and/or touchingly flirting with someone. Shit happens. You're not being violated because someone you're not interested in asks you out when you haven't explicitly expressed your disinterest to them. You're not being violated if someone tells you they want to fuck you and you say "nope, not interested" and then they don't pursue it further.

    If you Harvey Weinstein someone, you should be buried under the dankest part of the prison. If you Bill Cosby someone, they should cut your goddamn penis off and take away access to everything you care about. But some of this stuff...man I don't know.
    Last edited by Jason Moyer; 5th Jul 2020 at 01:26.

  11. #11
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: ideally far away
    this thread gave me pinkeye

    okay so here's some facts:

    1. so-called "cancel culture" isn't real. it's not a thing. it's a meme. the people who perpetuate this meme see obvious scumbags like louis CK getting called out for being creeps in an industry and society that regularly enables and encourages creepery and their immediate concern is themselves. i don't know whether it's because they instinctively believe that accusers are just jealous of the success of powerful or famous people men and automatically think that includes them, or if they're simply afraid that they might be held accountable for their own actions, which would be just awful. either way it's telling that "cancelling" is never actually defined in a concrete way and yet it always gets trotted out when anyone, literally just about anyone, faces accountability, even when the evidence is clear-cut, even when multiple accounts all detail the same bad behavior. (p.s. louis CK resumed his career in less than a year with nary a contrary word -- something that has happened with nearly all of the people who've so-far been "cancelled," with only weinstein and cosby and a token handful of others facing real consequences and not just not being able to afford a helipad for their sixth mansion.)

    2. natalie wynn (the contrapoints lady) absolutely deserved the drubbing she got. given that she's a trans woman, she's obviously not a TERF. (TERF means trans-exclusionary radical feminist, which is a special kind of transphobe that couches themselves in feminist rhetoric but uses the same arguments as garden-variety right-wing queerphobes.) but she is an exclusionary bigot who thinks non-binary people aren't real (trans people who do this are called truscum), calls herself "the last of the old-school transsexuals" (nevermind that she's barely in her thirties yet still using a term that's been outdated for twenty years) and, infamously, had as a guest on one of her videos none other than buck angel, a trans man who:

      1. forcibly outed lana wachowski as trans to rolling stone before she was ready in revenge for his wife leaving him for her, an action for which he was paid
      2. likes to ingratiate himself with TERFs as "one of the good ones"
      3. as such is literal actual friends with graham linehan (an apparent TV funnyman who's torpedoed his own career due to becoming a leading figure in the anti-trans movement)
      4. is one of the biggest, most well-known truscum in the trans community and is no friend to trans people, especially those who don't or can't "pass" (read: meet the intense, arbitrary and often contradictory expectations of binary gender expression)

      then when she was called out on this, she threw a huge tantrum on twitter that ended up tarnishing a huge portion of "breadtube" (a loose collective of left-leaning content producers such as philosophy tube and lindsay ellis) and then, just when we all thought she would just change topics for her next video and hope it all blew over, she posted the "canceled" video which is, essentially, an egotistical, self-pitying rant by someone who pissed all her goodwill away because she felt threatened by other trans people she didn't think were trans enough. oh, and she "forgot" to hide the names of some of the twitter accounts that were critical of her, exposing them to harassment, so that's special. and yet, not even two years ago she was one of the most important voices in explaining guys like tony and evaunit to people in the real world -- and so it's very ironic to see how she is now a darling of the exact same milquetoast center-right liberal dorks who two years ago would've condemned her as a shrieking, unreasonable commie, even though she's very far from being one. hell, one of the characters that pops up in her videos frequently, tabby, is an exact cartoon stereotype of what liberals think communists are. (and anyway being a shrieking, unreasonable commie is my job, but at least i won't demand you read dusty-ass books by self-important white men before you're allowed to debate me. i'm not tony)

    3. the "false claims" thing needs to be taken out front and shot and its corpse left to fester in the yard as a warning to other bad arguments. are a small, tiny, minuscule portion of accusations false? probably. it happens. but it has been weaponized to silence anyone accusing someone of sexual assault. most rapes go unreported to the police, because of fear, and because the police have a history of not doing shit -- or they're the ones doing the raping. and even when victims do speak up, often nothing happens anyway.

      and i'll tell you something else -- i knew someone who was raped, but when she reported it to the police they bullied her into recanting. so there's a "false claim" for ya.


    thanks for the reminder of why i don't come here much anymore, though. sometimes i forget and start to think i actually enjoyed myself once.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: May 2004
    Is masturbating in front of your colleagues really a gray area? If someone is making their female colleagues uncomfortable to that degree, then at least at the very minimum it's unprofessional behaviour, to put it as mildly as possible.

    What happened to all that personal responsibility stuff I've heard so much about over the years? Y'know, actions have consequences and all that? If you're being a creep or abusive to people, of course stuff like this will get out sooner or later and people might not want to hire you as a result.

  13. #13
    Chakat sex pillow
    Registered: Sep 2006
    Location: not here
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Moyer View Post
    I read as much about the Chris Avellone cancelling as I could on Twitter, and as far as I could tell he just lost a pile of jobs because a.) he was a raging alcoholic 5-10 years ago b.) he made awkward passes on people 5-10 years ago while drunk and c.) he and some girl he was dating had an awkward breakup.
    There's an alleged sexual assault with a woman at a convention, though. Lack of consent and a long history of this kind of thing was the trigger, as far as I can tell. As much as I like Chris's work, that doesn't make this kind of behaviour excusable.

  14. #14
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: ideally far away
    Quote Originally Posted by Starker View Post
    What happened to all that personal responsibility stuff I've heard so much about over the years? Y'know, actions have consequences and all that? If you're being a creep or abusive to people, of course stuff like this will get out sooner or later and people might not want to hire you as a result.
    oh, you know how it goes, personal responsibility only applies to the victims -- "what were you wearing," "you should have known he'd do that," etc.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    but we can still separate the art from the artist, right? Right?

    damn you Michael Jackson *shakes fist in the air in impotent rage*

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2010
    Location: A Former Forest
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Obsolete_Man

    While this is about a man that is “good”, the subject is about the terrible totalitarian idea of "no redemption" and absolute guilt forever.

    “Canceling” a person for recent dealings is one thing, but bringing up high school hi-jinx is another. Cancel culture is a religion and there is no redemption from sin.

    Past acceptable context be damned, we must evaluate all in the light of the recent woke mantra - that changes as the wind blows. Those that are righteous today will be up against the wall tomorrow. Welcome to the French Revolution. There will be blood soon. The sad thing is mostly nothing will change.

    Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss
    Last edited by bjack; 5th Jul 2020 at 17:28. Reason: added content for whatever reason - cheers

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: The Plateaux Of Mirror
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulphur View Post
    There's an alleged sexual assault with a woman at a convention, though.
    Yeah, that's absolutely fucked then. What a scumbag.

  18. #18
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: ideally far away
    Quote Originally Posted by bjack View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Obsolete_Man

    While this is about a man that is “good”, the subject is about the terrible totalitarian idea of "no redemption" and absolute guilt forever.

    “Canceling” a person for recent dealings is one thing, but bringing up high school hi-jinx is another. Cancel culture is a religion and there is no redemption from sin.

    Past acceptable context be damned, we must evaluate all in the light of the recent woke mantra - that changes as the wind blows. Those that are righteous today will be up against the wall tomorrow. Welcome to the French Revolution. There will be blood soon. The sad thing is mostly nothing will change.

    Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss
    lmfao using a friggin' twilight zone episode to defend people facing consequences for decades of abusive behavior, jesus. and here i thought i'd seen everything on this forum

    bjack, would you listen to yourself? you sound unhinged with your apocalyptic rant where you namedrop the french revolution, imply that "woke" types are gonna be putting people up against a wall (for what, exactly?), blood! blood!! arrrhhhhhhh!!! -- it's all nonsense. it's a subway vagrant ramble. calm down, nobody is going to put you up against a wall for your posting history

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2010
    Location: A Former Forest
    Quote Originally Posted by june gloom View Post
    lmfao using a friggin' twilight zone episode to defend people facing consequences for decades of abusive behavior, jesus. and here i thought i'd seen everything on this forum

    bjack, would you listen to yourself? you sound unhinged with your apocalyptic rant where you namedrop the french revolution, imply that "woke" types are gonna be putting people up against a wall (for what, exactly?), blood! blood!! arrrhhhhhhh!!! -- it's all nonsense. it's a subway vagrant ramble. calm down, nobody is going to put you up against a wall for your posting history
    Two people are dead due to marxist radicalism in the “CHOP” of Seattle. The CHOP people wanted to dismantle to police. So they chased them out and the leftist mayor of Seattle let them do it. Then these “peaceful protestors” armed themselves with AR15s and proceeded to gun down kids when they felt slightly agitated.

    How is that realted to cancel culture? If you speak out against marxist ideas you will be fired, beaten up, house burned, etc. I shit you not. It is what is happening in the USA today. The kids killed weren’t protesting against “CHOP” either. They were just of the wrong gang. Sometimes associations are a bitch.

    As for the episode, it simply shows a heretic and an accuser/sentencer. The hated eat the hated. Retribution is a nasty bitch. It gets out of hand. It goes too far.

    So, whatever... have your opinion. You are entitled to have one, albeit wrong or right. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by bjack; 5th Jul 2020 at 20:45.

  20. #20
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: ideally far away
    Quote Originally Posted by bjack View Post
    Two people are dead due to marxist radicalism in the “CHOP” of Seattle. The CHOP people wanted to dismantle to police. So they chased them out and the leftist mayor of Seattle let them do it. Then these “peaceful protestors” armed themselves with AR15s and proceeded to gun down kids when they felt slightly agitated.
    so this is just like, your schtick then? you're just gonna go off on some alex jones far right conspiracy nonsense with no evidence for it but your own enlarged amygdala? aiight then, if that's what you like to do who am i to get in the way of that?

  21. #21

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2002
    Location: In the flesh.
    Marxist radicalism is a stretch but one was killed and another injured. That has jack to do with cancel culture and little to do with the protest but never let a chance go by to push black hate and left hate right? Swallow that Limbaugh Koolaide before you can taste the poison. I would think "The Monsters on Maple Street" would be a good Twilight Zone for you bjack.

    As for the subject at hand, we have erred plenty on the side of men, maybe erring on the side of women a time or two won't kill us. Sure it's best not to err at all and certainly to use our brains in figuring out if we are in error. All the chicken little crap just makes me feel like men are pussies though. Women have lived under the yoke of male domination and haven't whined about it nearly as much as men under just the fear of female equality under the law. It's almost funny. What is it conservatives say? Play stupid games and win stupid prizes? Well with retribution via the web now you too can win stupid prizes. It's a kind of punishment by opinion though so the end result is still not as harsh. Hold your hormones in check and if you can't be a decent human then stop socializing and pay for sex from a pro. If that is all you want then it will solve your problem. I would suggest learning to be decent as a first choice of course.

  23. #23
    Taking the Death Toll
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: ideally far away
    yes, yes, i know about the CHOP shootings, i have friends who volunteered there, but none of those articles you linked give a single iota of evidence to your incoherent screed where you rant about "marxist radicalism" and mischaracterize the very not-leftist mayor durkan who has basically given SPD's notoriously violent police force free reign to deal with peaceful protests any way they want

    you don't know a thing about CHOP or what happened to it or why it existed in the first place and you never will because you looked around at the insane world we live in where police commit assault and murder with nigh-impunity, kids are put in cages and we canceled a quarantine in the middle of a pandemic because rich people were losing money, and decided it was all a marxist hoax to take over your favorite waffle house

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2010
    There is a concerted movement to take away the one thing that we need to regulate our society: "evidence".

    The Jussie Smollet and Kavanaugh circus events were all just grooming exercises to get people to act without hard evidence and give up
    their right to a fair and impartial trial.

    Regardless of party affiliation, the oligarch class would love nothing more than to destroy western civics:

    https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3599

    and replace it with "narrative driven justice".


    No objective reasoning, no universal standards, just lots of "justice" where if you question the outcome you are part of slime-class of racists, or sexists, or
    whatever hot-button label they want to "otherize" folks with.


    Remember when George W. Bush called domestic surveillance "The Patriot Act" so that if you were against it you were "against patriots"?


    Same shit different party with #MeToo and BLM. If you disagree with the logic, practices, funding, or party affiliations of these "movements" then
    the implication is that you "hate women" or that you don't care about "black lives".


    100's of piles of neatly arranged bricks conveniently available for the George Floyd protests, does this trouble you?
    Doesn't it look too organized?

    Sorry, you cannot ask these questions. Report immediately to your Thought Crime Center and pay for your "indirect racism" or for this new crime we call being a "conspiracy theorist".

    Yep. Mainstream News media used to have JFK conspiracy episodes on a yearly basis but now if you don't follow what's written in the approved pamphlet you are "dangerous to democracy"...

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2001
    Location: Somewhere
    wait, so CHOP isnt referring to House of Pancakes?

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