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Thread: Super confused about upgrading Thief I and II

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: New Jersey

    Super confused about upgrading Thief I and II

    While it's fantastic that some creative and skilled taffers have helped add some extra life to Thief: Dark Project/Gold (TDP/G) and Thief: The Metal Age (TMA), unfortunately it's not clear which steps one should take to properly install the upgrades that they created.

    First question: we now have the ability to import the TMA meshes into TDP/G. However, it's confusing how this should be done. On this page, there are two choices; which should we choose? One choice is "Thief 1 & Gold AI Mesh & Skin Patch" by Daemonite and the other is "Thief 2 Meshes in Thief Gold" by Orgy. So which is better?

    Second question: there is a "GIF" and a "TGA" version of Daemonite's meshes. What is the difference between these - is one higher quality than the other? Which one is more appropriate for modern PCs?

    Third question: Regarding Orgy's texture patches ("Thief Gold Texture Patch") on that page, which one is more appropriate for modern PCs, the software of hardware version?

    So on that page we can upgrade TDP/G and TMA's meshes, skins, and textures. That brings us to the "Thief Enhancement Pack".

    Fourth question: What is the relationship of the Thief Enhancement Pack to the "User Patches" on this page? If I install the Enhancement Pack, do I not need the upgrades listed on it? Does the Enhancement Pack do anything not listed in my first three questions?

    Fifth Question: What is the relationship of the NTEX Pack for TMA to the Thief Enhancement Pack? Can you install both on TMA, or must you choose one?

    Sixth question: Does one need to let the Darkloader "optimize" TDP/G and TMA before you can apply all the patches listed above?

    I realize that there are quite a few questions here, but I really feel that we need to sort these out because keeping the first two Thief games viable as gaming continually evolves is key to keeping the series alive.

    References:

    Thief Gold/Thief 2 - what Upgrades should I get?
    NTEX high-res texture pack
    NTEX dds Texture Pack vs. Thief Enhancement Pack
    Thief 2 tweaks, graphic mods, etc.
    Thief 3 - Tweak Guide
    Thief I + II Sound enhancement pack
    Thief I and II Patches and Tweaks on Thief: The Circle
    The Thief Enhancement Pack

  2. #2
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen
    Well done, I really like what you've done here.

    I feel that if jtr had the time, he would be the perfect choice for this particular issue. He pays uncanny attention to detail and has a way of presenting them that most can relate to.

  3. #3
    jtr7
    Guest
    Heh heh.


    When this gets moved to a better forum, you'll get the best answers I could never come up with.

  4. #4
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2001
    Location: Vertigo, DragonSand, Xeen

  5. #5
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Go2doug View Post
    While it's fantastic that some creative and skilled taffers have helped add some extra life to Thief: Dark Project/Gold (TDP/G) and Thief: The Metal Age (TMA), unfortunately it's not clear which steps one should take to properly install the upgrades that they created.
    First question: - go to the editors guild

    Second question: - go to the editors guild

    Third question: The hardware version

    Fourth question: the enhancement pack is addition to existing patches as far as I understand.

    Fifth Question: - the NTEX Pack is a high texture qaulity(32bit versus 16bit) update/upgrade, where as the enhancement pack just update the existing standard textures and objects - and I run both.

    Sixth question: - hmmm, I would say it wont matter either way, but Im sure the author of darkload and garret loader will be along with more info.

    biker

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    Heh heh.


    When this gets moved to a better forum, you'll get the best answers I could never come up with.
    New better forum ? We´re moving ?

  7. #7
    The Architect
    Registered: Dec 1998
    Location: Lyon
    Not sure where you think this should go, Jason.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: UK, Suffolk
    Quote Originally Posted by Go2doug View Post
    Sixth question: Does one need to let the Darkloader "optimize" TDP/G and TMA before you can apply all the patches listed above?
    As Bikerdude mentioned, generally if you use GarrettLoader or DarkLoader its preferable to optimize thief before actually playing any FMs. One of the reasons why is that Optimization will reduce the use of your Thief CDs. It also adjusts the way that thief looks for its resources which is really required for FMs, enhancement and texture packs. System Shock 2 is pretty much the same as well.

  9. #9
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by Go2doug View Post
    Sixth question: Does one need to let the Darkloader "optimize" TDP/G and TMA before you can apply all the patches listed above?
    "Optimize", as used by DarkLoader, is a gross misnomer. All it really does is tweak some configs and move the CRFs so that the engine will accept user mods. Over on the System Shock 2 (which uses the same engine) side, this process is referred to as making the game "mod-ready".

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jun 2004
    Can we put together a page on the circle, a step-by-step install guide of all the essential user-made upgrades over the years?

    There's a lot of stuff and even someone like me can get confused if I don't keep myself updated all the time, and I don't. No cus I don't wanna, but even updating my config on a competitive title across rigs is a huge headache, and I can use the help.

  11. #11
    jtr7
    Guest
    Thanks Bikerdude, potterr, ZB, and Jashin.

    (Ahem)
    I would've thought this thread could be moved to the forums where these things are regulary discussed or come up most, and ThiefGen ain't it. I know some of these things are most discussed in one forum or another, but only touched on here. "Better forum" as in one where one is more likely to get the answers one is looking for. I also know that moving a thread creates two paths, possibly increasing the chances to be seen by the informed who may share their knowledge, and when it comes to patches, tweaks, loaders, and enhancements, I ain't one of them.

  12. #12
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    I would've thought this thread could be moved to the forums where these things are regulary discussed or come up most, and ThiefGen ain't it.
    Not true, most of the links in the original post link to a thread in ThiefGen. Some go to the FM forum, but since most upgrades apply to the original missions as much as any FM, I would think this is the perfect forum for this kind of talk. You could make an argument for the technical/troubleshooting forum, but it probably wouldn't get seen by nearly as many people over there.

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2004
    Location: New Jersey
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerdude View Post
    First question: - go to the editors guild

    Second question: - go to the editors guild
    Even though my questions do not revolve around "editing" Thief? Not to mention there are currently 376 pages in the Editors' Guild section, each with 40+ threads...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikerdude View Post
    Third question: The hardware version

    Fourth question: the enhancement pack is addition to existing patches as far as I understand.

    Fifth Question: - the NTEX Pack is a high texture qaulity(32bit versus 16bit) update/upgrade, where as the enhancement pack just update the existing standard textures and objects - and I run both.

    Sixth question: - hmmm, I would say it wont matter either way, but Im sure the author of darkload and garret loader will be along with more info.
    Thank you for your clarifications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jashin
    Can we put together a page on the circle, a step-by-step install guide of all the essential user-made upgrades over the years?
    I think that would be a very useful and beneficial task to embark upon. The creators of the upgrades (Orgy, Daemonite, and others) should seriously consider collaborating on this, in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brethren
    Not true, most of the links in the original post link to a thread in ThiefGen. Some go to the FM forum, but since most upgrades apply to the original missions as much as any FM, I would think this is the perfect forum for this kind of talk. You could make an argument for the technical/troubleshooting forum, but it probably wouldn't get seen by nearly as many people over there.
    Here, here! I do think it was a mistake to move the Thief technical support forum away from the "Thief Series" section to the "Legacy Gaming" one, but that is another topic. Anyway, I did try my best to answer my own questions before starting this thread, to which the links in the References section of my post attest. However, I mostly found posts by others who were/are just as confused as I am.

    I did install the Thief Enhancement Pack into TG after I had installed some upgrades made by Daemonite and Orgy, and soon I will install TMA and then use the Enhancement Pack and NTEX simultaneously. Wish me luck.

  14. #14
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    I thought I should come and post some response here, since Biker simply told you to go away. Plus it could help others asking the same questions.

    First question: we now have the ability to import the TMA meshes into TDP/G. However, it's confusing how this should be done. On this page, there are two choices; which should we choose? One choice is "Thief 1 & Gold AI Mesh & Skin Patch" by Daemonite and the other is "Thief 2 Meshes in Thief Gold" by Orgy. So which is better?

    Second question: there is a "GIF" and a "TGA" version of Daemonite's meshes. What is the difference between these - is one higher quality than the other? Which one is more appropriate for modern PCs?

    Third question: Regarding Orgy's texture patches ("Thief Gold Texture Patch") on that page, which one is more appropriate for modern PCs, the software of hardware version?

    So on that page we can upgrade TDP/G and TMA's meshes, skins, and textures. That brings us to the "Thief Enhancement Pack".

    Fourth question: What is the relationship of the Thief Enhancement Pack to the "User Patches" on this page? If I install the Enhancement Pack, do I not need the upgrades listed on it? Does the Enhancement Pack do anything not listed in my first three questions?

    Fifth Question: What is the relationship of the NTEX Pack for TMA to the Thief Enhancement Pack? Can you install both on TMA, or must you choose one?

    Sixth question: Does one need to let the Darkloader "optimize" TDP/G and TMA before you can apply all the patches listed above?
    First Q: This is a matter of taste probably. I haven't personally tried the Orgy version, as it seems smaller and is probably not as extensive as the Daemonite patch. I can say that the Daemonite patch is well worth it though.

    Second Q: Yes. TGA version appears to be better. I'm mainly going off The Circle's description. TGA version is 24-bit colors, whereas the GIF version is 256 colors.

    Third Q: This question is kind of not worded well (sorry). I think a better question is, What's the difference between hardware and software, and which one should I get if I have a modern computer (or I don't)?
    Note: I'm not so sure about my answer, so one might want to get a second opinion if you will. Depending on your hardware (that is, cpu, graphics, etc.) this could change. If you have a modern computer, then you obviously want the hardware version. Hardware uses the best possible textures in all their hi-res glory, am I right? Software is, well software. If you have an older computer that might not be able to handle higher res textures, then go for the software version. I'm not sure on this, but I think the terms software and hardware for the texture patch refer to thief 1/gold's "hardware on" versus "hardware off" modes. If orgy himself/herself could confirm then we'd know for sure.

    Fourth Q: To elaborate on Bikerdude's response, yes it is an addition, and does not replace daemonite's patch nor orgy's patch. You linked to the EP (Enhancement Pack) in your firstpost Go2Doug, which explains what the EP is/does. To rehash, all it does is change the objects in thief.

    I hope that helps, to whoever needed it besides Go2Doug if you are out there.

  15. #15
    bikerdude
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by sNeaksieGarrett View Post
    I thought I should come and post some response here, since Biker simply told you to go away. Plus it could help others asking the same questions.
    Sneaksie

    Now think about what you just said, have I ever told someone to go away on this forum when they have asked for help.....

    biker

  16. #16
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    I was kind of joking, you didn't say it directly, but that's what I got from "go to the editor's guild" which is like saying "go away"

  17. #17
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by sNeaksieGarrett View Post
    Second Q: Yes. TGA version appears to be better. I'm mainly going off The Circle's description. TGA version is 24-bit colors, whereas the GIF version is 256 colors.
    TGAs under the Dark Engine are actually only 12-bit color. GIF/PCX textures allow 256 16-bit colors.

  18. #18
    PC Gamering Smartey Man
    I <3 consoles and gamepads

    Registered: Aug 2007
    Location: New Zealand
    Quote Originally Posted by ZylonBane View Post
    TGAs under the Dark Engine are actually only 12-bit color.
    So Daemonite's 24-bit TGA skins are just being downscaled by the engine?

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    I guess the only way to know for sure is to test it in-game and see which one looks better. TGA vs GIF

  20. #20
    ZylonBane
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: ZylonBane
    Quote Originally Posted by sNeaksieGarrett View Post
    I guess the only way to know for sure is to test it in-game and see which one looks better. TGA vs GIF
    It's not that simplistic. TGA will look better if you have a texture that needs to display a lot of color. Like, the entire visible spectrum. GIF/PCX will look better with textures that need smooth gradients.

  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    So I guess what I'm getting here, is that neither patch is really the best one. I guess if we mixed the patches or something?

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2003
    Location: England
    Yer but then it's not clear cut always which will be better for a said image.

    Wasn't ddfix looking for a way around this or something? To fix the tga problem or to allow import of a different file format? I can't exactly remember.

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