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Thread: OpenThief source forge project available

  1. #1
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2008

    OpenThief source forge project available

    Dear all
    As a professionnal coder at Ubi, I dont have time anymore to seriously take care of the openThief project http://openthief.sf.net
    I have installed a wiki, analyzed and tested some open source graphics and physics engines (as Crystal Space, Irrlicht, Bullet, PAL,...), and put some demo in the SF private folder.
    I could still help on some coding tasks as AI or GUI but I cant lead the project anymore.
    As Thief like gameplays strongly use difficult to code features as dynamic lights, shadows, intelligent AI, and now network, leading a such project needs time and experience. It should not be a good idea to become the new admin if you have never managed a source forge project before or if you are starting the university.
    I will so give the openthief SourceForge admin & email password to anyone experienced and interessed to continue the development.
    For that, send an email to openthief@hotmail.com (openthief arobas hotmail dot com)
    Regards to all
    Eternal life to Thief.

  2. #2
    jtr7
    Guest
    Sorry for the bummer part. I thank you very much for your work, thus far.


    You might want to change the format of your email, there, so you won't get hit by a spambot.

    Thanks for making an announcement about your circumstances, too.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2005
    Location: The Inverted Manse
    I wonder if we could merge it with openDarkEngine.

  4. #4
    Clearinghouse
    Registered: Aug 2002
    Location: Siberia, Russia
    http://openthief.sourceforge.net/med...hp/Screenshots
    openthief, I can't see any screenshots.

  5. #5
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    Judging on the wording on your site, I take it that this is NOT like openDarkEngine, as you say it is "an open source project to create a Thief/DarkProject like game." Am I correct?

    openDarkEngine is actually for thief, but it sounds like yours is not.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    From what I understand, this project overlaps with DarkMod in the idea and direction (much more than with openDarkEngine ).

    openThief: How far did you get besides some basic interactivity? I get it the project is at "just started" phase, is it?

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    Lol, I thought I had seen this before.... I'm not going crazy...... yet.

    Volca: Yeah, that is what I was thinking based on his wording.

  8. #8
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Volca View Post
    From what I understand, this project overlaps with DarkMod in the idea and direction (much more than with openDarkEngine ).
    Yes, I remember this project from a long time ago. This is my understanding of it as well...it's a stand alone.

    Given how far along we are, I don't see the need for this project to continue. We will have the D3 source code relatively soon, so we'll be completely open source. If there are any C++ coders out there, we could certainly use their help to lighten the load on our coding team.

  9. #9
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2008
    So to explain the differences between the mentionned Thief like projects :

    - DarkMod is only a mod of Doom 3. You need Doom 3 original game to play mods. Meaning you should need to buy Doom 3 CD/DVD. The engine at the background (D3SDK) is already dead as the author, IDSoftware, has not updated it for years and ofcourse will not. Even with source code, a real enhancement of Doom 3 engine, which will be necessary one day, would need to restart everything from scratch. It is working with a dead technology and knowing that one day everything will have to be thrown and cancelled. It is then so hard than such "mod" projects usually stop. It is the same problem with the Unreal Thief mod. It is finally quite sad to use corpses and scraps from the current game industry. This industry is not excited at all by the game we love, Thief. Nowadays, video games editors dont want to produce at all Thief like games.

    - openDarkEngine is a total different goal. It aims at reloading Thief 1 and 2 levels, artworks and, hoping, gameplay. Contrary to DarkMod, it is fully real opensource, does not depend on a dead engines. It means more long term project than DarkMod. But the goal is limited if it stops at T1 and T2 levels. it will be difficult to include all the new features that appears in games for years : physics gameplay, next gen AI, network, shaders,... The graphical aspect will looks old as it use old low polygon levels and characters, and the compatibility between T1, T2 and perhaps a new level format will be time consuming to keep. On the contrary, it is a more intelligent project than DarkMod or thief UT mod, as the graphics engine for example, is external (Ogre if I remember right). Everything can be redone and we have the full control on the data, assets and code.
    Full open sources projects like openThief has no limit : it use external upto date middlewares. For example, rendering engines like Ogre has already been used in several commercial games, it is updated every days by the whole community, and is already 6 years old. The physical engine ODE is 10 years old,.. without mentioning Bullet, or opened Collada format. You dont usually need to buy a commercial game to play an open source game as it's a stand alone executable with his own assets. Life of open sources projects is unlimited as there are no legal nor technical limitations. To finish, having the source code of the engine you use is not sufficient if nobody update it. Actually, the best is to use several external open sources long term solutions (Ogre + Bullet + OpenAL...).

    Here it is.
    So :
    - for a short term solution, Dark Mod could be funny and easy to work on. But be sure that in the near 2 years, it will be dead or deprecated.
    - For long term solutions, either openthief or OPDE is better.
    According to my contacts in the industry, absolutely no thief 4 is planed.
    So the only solutions to definitely renew thief like games are OPDE or openThief.
    Kind regards to all.

  10. #10
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by openthief View Post
    So to explain the differences between the mentioned Thief like projects :.....
    Wow. HUGE misinformation in that post if I've ever seen it. No disrespect, but you are so totally off base that I find it personally offensive that you would even post something so absolutely ignorant and uniformed. Whether or not you work as a professional coder at Ubisoft is irrelevant.

    1. When the D3 source code is released...efforts can and will be made to create a stand alone base. Until then, yes...you obviously need a copy of the game, but when the code is released...it can break free of that limitation.

    2. It doesn't matter if Id software has updated the engine or not, 'WE' have already made updates to the code they released in the SDK. 'WE' have also made great strides in improving an already robust engine. You think an engine is no good if nobody is updating it...well, that's what we've been doing with the code we have...and when the source code is released, you can be damned sure we are planning to fix some issues to improve the engine further.

    The full source code is to be released as early as next year, which will likely coincide with our Beta Release of the mod....putting it on equal ground with any other open source engine that is maintained by an open source community. I don't know if you've played any of our Demos, but we're at a point where everything is in place. It's essentially finished, and pretty soon we'll be opening it up to the community.

    There is hardly any difference between building a Thief experience from the ground up in a native open source engine and one that 'becomes' open source when its commercial lifespan has ended. It all boils down to the same thing...'years of work' and 'a dedicated team'. Our team has managed to fulfill what we set out to do, not only on one project...but 2...The Dark Mod, and Dark Radiant. We're serious, we're dedicated and we will get it done!

    How far along is your project? Do you have any playable demos? Lets see them. I'm not saying that to be confrontational, I seriously mean it. Show your work. It doesn't matter what engine a team is using, if it doesn't have the team members to do the work...you've just got a pile of code.

    You're sorely mistaken if you think this community will simply roll over and let The Dark Mod expire. The community here has been totally supportive of us.

    OPDE is brilliant, and I think it is making great progress. I can't wait to try it. As for your project, I meant no disrespect...but we're already well underway. There would be no sense in everyone climbing onto an openthief project...only to spend another 4 or 5 years developing it when the community will have a viable, maintainable project with TDM.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Although I agree with some of the points you written, i think saying that DarkMod will be dead within 2 years is too sceptical. I see those things you mention are good reasons, but seeing how far DarkMod came - it seems logical that authors and users will be more than happy to maintain and improve it.

    Even quake1 engine is used in some open source projects today, and although it's aging, it is very portable and maintainable even today. Right - there are things that will change and to which the editing tools and level data etc. will have to be bent - namely the batching issues that seem to be a hot topic today, in regards to which the quakes BSP file format is not exactly well designed. Still, the dark places quake modification implements realtime lighting, shaders, etc and performs well on modern PC's (and we're talking ~12 years old engine here?).

    Edit: New Horizon was quicker
    Last edited by Volca; 3rd Dec 2008 at 13:34. Reason: changed my mind ;)

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2004
    Location: Prince Edward Island, Canada
    Quote Originally Posted by Volca View Post
    Although I agree with some of the points you written, i think saying that DarkMod will be dead within 2 years is too sceptical. I see those things you mention are good reasons, but seeing how far DarkMod came - it seems logical that authors and users will be more than happy to maintain and improve it.

    Even quake1 engine is used in some open source projects today, and although it's aging, it is very portable and maintainable even today. Right - there are things that will change and to which the editing tools and level data etc. will have to be bent - namely the batching issues that seem to be a hot topic today, in regards to which the quakes BSP file format is not exactly well designed. Still, the dark places quake modification implements realtime lighting, shaders, etc and performs well on modern PC's (and we're talking ~12 years old engine here?).

    Edit: New Horizon was quicker
    Exactly, it doesn't matter where the engine comes from...code is code. If a project creates a 'desire' then nothing short of the earth blowing up will stop the community from maintaining it. Prime example is the original Dark Engine. We have no source code, yet people have bent and twisted that poor beast into doing incredible things. It can even run widescreen, use higher resolution textures, and has multiplayer now. Three things I never thought were possible without the source code. When we get the D3 source...this community will be able to do a lot more than that.

    As far as there being no Thief 4. I don't know who your contacts are, but they're painfully wrong!

  13. #13
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Thief fan since ca. 1999
    Sorry, but lol. (directed at openthief)

    How pessimistic of you sir. The Dark Engine is about ten years old, yet people are still using it. So you saying that the dark mod will die in 2 years is absolutely ridiculous. Second, the dark mod is more or less like openthief in regards to the fact that they have the same goal, am I right? Both are to have "thief like" games, whereas opendarkengine is sort of an "update" for the dark engine. It will allow you to play thief and thief 2 like never before.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I understand.

    Also, your argument about "dead engine" is partially true, but the Dark Engine is a "dead engine" yet it's still being used through dromed! Doom 3 may also be a "dead engine," but as New Horizon already said, once they release the source code it can be updated. Just because something ages doesn't mean people will abandon it. Yes, it probably will inevitably happen some day, but that day isn't now.

  14. #14
    jtr7
    Guest
    Long live THIEF! The IF gives way to The When. Why? 'Cause, although the engine may be dead to the rest of the world, and to the industry as a money machine, it lives and breathes stronger and stronger, here! Hear hear!

    Woot! \o/


    And all of you people who are making it possible deserve our deepest gratitude and more!

  15. #15
    Permanently Enlarged
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: I could care...but I won't.
    I'm finding it difficult to believe that someone could be that obtuse.

    I'm going to hell for this, but it must be said: LURK MOAR.

  16. #16
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2008
    Reply to New_Horizon :

    Without any disrespect, I regret to tell you that your talking has some misinformations, low knowledge of opensource world and video game engines history.

    1. First, as you said, you must wait for source codes, you dont have it and perhaps you are even blocked because you need the source code to plainly continue. Secondly, you speak about when it will be released, if it will effectively be released without a clear date. With open sources solutions, we dont have to wait WHEN and IF the technology you desperately need will be released. I hope you are not currently sending emails to IDSoftware saying "please my lord, release the code". Third, not sure even with the Doom source code you wont need any small files from the Doom 3 CD/DVD. And of course as there are still and always legal properties, you wont even be able to distribute any small files from Doom as it will be still copyrighted by ID Software.

    2. It is ofcourse very important to know who will update and upgrade your engine. In the case of mod works, the bad news is that the authors, the original studio, ID Software for example, dont do that. You didnt understand what I have said. I didnt tell an engine is not good if there are no updates. It could be good but not during a long period as others engines release new features and yours not. Just take for example the latest Bullet demo about soft bodies, fluids physics, destructible clothes. The Doom 3 engine wont be able to support all the next video game features, and you know that. It would be honnest for you just to say that. Of course, if you get the Doom source code, you will fix some minor bugs. But you should say you wont be able to add the next latest features.

    3. Now you seems to be quite anxious to be in the situation to wait for the source code of such deprecated engines. OPDE could be proud not to wait for any commercial companies generosity. Even with the Doom 3 source code, I am sorry to inform that you wont be in the same situation than real open source community. As a real Thief lover, I have played your mod. I have seen that major parts are in placed. But this is absolutely not a reason to be so proud of it. It is just a mod, even with lot of works for which I congratulate your team. But I said, it is a short term solution with a death approaching for sure. Every engines coming from the industry disapear days after days, which is logic.

    4. Now you seems to consider that a starting project has nothing to say to a mature one. Well it is just a poor point of view. A small real open source project like OPDE can be much more proud than a mod project. Globally, pretty everything was done in Doom 3. On the contrary, as Volca said, OPDE started from scratch. So it is sad to be so proud of your mod. Above all, it is actually illegal to compare real open source projects to mods. Now just rethink of the team you have when you work with open source middlewares : say Ogre 50 guys, say Bullet 15 guys,... Does IDSoftware going to reply to your questions/support requests ?

    5. Now the community ofcourse will forget the Dark Mod and others mods even if they dont want to. Simply for example when they will see that it does not work on their latest video card or on Windows Seven, ... Or simply because nowadays they dont want to buy/reinstall Dooom 3 game. Or simply because they want to see nice fluids physics in your game, or some kind of motion retargetting like Natural Motion Euphoria. The problem is that the engine behind mods are days after days more and more poor compared to the latest one.

    6. OPDE is a real long term project, like openThief project. There is non sense to do mods except if you accept the death of your mod. Contrary to mods, we (OPDE and OpenThief) can have an eternal and uptodate graphic engines, a next gen physics engine... Just like mods projects, we dont need 4 or 5 years to have the engine and latest features. They are already there, ready to be used, and alive.

    7. To conclude, it should be honnest from you to say to the coders reading us that Mods games like Dark Mod are not viable long term solutions. Now, I must admit there are more works to do in our projects than in a mod project like yours. It is probably more difficult. But this is the only long term solution. Now perhaps in some months, you will think of a bridge between the Doom SDK and an open source solution. But I doubt it will be feasable to link Doom code with a third party middleware.

    Have a nice (day || night).

  17. #17
    New Member
    Registered: Dec 2008
    Reply to volca :

    Well you are right, 2 years is perhaps sceptical. But even 3 years. Just imagine what will be the video game in 3 years. What will looks like Dark Mod or other mods compared to the latest version of Ogre and Bullet games ?
    Well Quake 1 games is a good example. I am not sure that New_Horizon is conscious that Dark Mod will looks like Quake 1 game in some years.
    Moreover, the ID BSP format is not perfect for a Thief like game. The Collada should be better. Quake 1 engine has became so poor perhaps because it was simply released from a company at a time where it was too late to update it...
    -So do you confirm the original T1/2 level format has to be updated ?
    -Could a .miss file be converted to .collada or .mesh file ?
    Cheers

  18. #18
    jtr7
    Guest
    Personally, I view all of these projects as different stages of Thief's future. DromEd for now (T3Ed needs more users with stable systems), overlapped by the coming of the next satisfactory engine/editor, overlapped by the next--and so on--so that Thief is getting translated to the newer tech, in spite of the most current industry standards. As long as future Operating Systems will execute the code, and as long as there are those who can keep the code viable, Thief will live on, in several forms, but Thief it will be. When an engine/editor can no longer be used, there will still be options.

    We love the Dark Engine just fine. Out-dated has nothing to do with our love for that engine. In fact, some of us think it's pretty cool that it's still going strong, and stronger all the time. If the Dark Mod is still usable and as easy to work with as it appears to be, the community will keep it alive as long as there are computers that can still run it.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Nov 2003
    Location: Norman, OK
    I just checked out the openthief site, and I was amazed at the lack of anything there. No screenshots - no FAQ - no Help page - no download. In fact, about the only thing there was the short tasks list, and I quote from it:

    Quote Originally Posted by openthief site
    TO DO :


    - Today, the main task is to find a lead coder/admin for openThief. As a professionnal coder, I have no time enough for a serious work on OpenThief. I will give the admin password with full rights to anyone with a serious resume. Send email to openthief@hotmail.com

    - a simple task should be to search for a ready to use, mature and alive engine including : Ogre : graphics engine PAL : Physic Abstraction Layer Fmod : 3D geometric sound

    - another task should be to start to write an UML diagram for OpenThief Engine.

    Retrieved from "http://openthief.sourceforge.net/mediawiki-1.6.10/index.php/Shorttasks"
    Note that he still hasn't chosen an actual engine... but that should be a "simple task" - since someone else has written all of it.
    I submit that the so-called "professional coder" hasn't written line 1 of any code yet for this project, and that he wants someone else to do it all for him. Hence, he is taking only "serious resumes".

    I'm not sure he's even a programmer at all.

  20. #20
    jtr7
    Guest
    Maybe he should name two or three games he's done significant work on.

  21. #21
    Southquarter.com/fms
    Registered: Apr 2000
    Location: The Akkala Highlands
    I love this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by openthief View Post
    Reply to New_Horizon :

    6. OPDE is a real long term project, like openThief project.
    Except for the part where, you know, you're abandoning it?

    No way this guy is a coder for Ubi. Even with his poor English, he sounds like he's about 14 (maybe).

    Edit: It's all about the team you have working on the project, the people who are dedicated to it. No one expects TDM to last for 10+ years, that's just unrealistic. But the community will get some great mileage out of it because it has backing and support from within. At the moment, openThief doesn't appear to have any team at all, so how reassuring is that?

  22. #22
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    Quote Originally Posted by openthief View Post
    Reply to volca :

    Well you are right, 2 years is perhaps sceptical. But even 3 years. Just imagine what will be the video game in 3 years. What will looks like Dark Mod or other mods compared to the latest version of Ogre and Bullet games ?
    Well Quake 1 games is a good example. I am not sure that New_Horizon is conscious that Dark Mod will looks like Quake 1 game in some years.
    Moreover, the ID BSP format is not perfect for a Thief like game. The Collada should be better. Quake 1 engine has became so poor perhaps because it was simply released from a company at a time where it was too late to update it...
    -So do you confirm the original T1/2 level format has to be updated ?
    -Could a .miss file be converted to .collada or .mesh file ?
    Cheers
    With Doom 3 source code (which I'm quite sure will be released), adoption of the engine to new HW and graphic levels will be the first thing anybody capable will likely try to do (even now you can find improved shaders for Doom 3).

    The more I learn about Tag File Databases, the more I'm sceptical about any other approach than close, similar code to support it (close to original Dark). Talking about graphic updates - we currently render level geometry using VBO's, the only minor inconvenience is the need of dynamic IBO updates per view change, but that's acceptable (~1 ms for any scene on recent computers). Batching issues could be resolved using texture atlases and shaders, or UV unwrapped geometry (So far it's good, but dark really uses too many terrain textures, could use less).

    Painful problems come from todays HW limitations, I assure you - stencil shadows are outdated tech. Shadow maps can't do omni lights without penalty compared to spotlights (I personally think this is due to the usage of linear-only projection on graphic hw). So far, no good solution for dynamic shadowing. We'll find some compromise though, I'm sure.

    Dark also exposes an enormous amount of lights in some cases. Dynamic lighting should be possible using defered shading, if not otherwise.

    The graphic APIs in the history were much more flexible - so adapting to the new ones, that sacrifice variability for speed is sometimes problematic, but not impossible.

    Edit: Sure, this will change as soon as we start using shaders instead of fixed pipeline.
    Last edited by Volca; 4th Dec 2008 at 06:28.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2006
    I just find it funny that someone wants to give away.. nothing.
    Just look at the openthief project page on sourceforge:
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/openthief/

    There's absolutely _nothing_.
    Not a single line of code in the SVN, not a single line of documentation, not a single discussion in the forum.
    This isn't even worth a discussion...it's just.. nothing, nada, nil.

    And just giving away the project page on SF is a bit pathetic.. I mean _everyone_ can create their own project on SF.. So what does anyone want with your empty project?

  24. #24
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Prague
    I remember there was some testing code using CrystalSpace some time ago, even screenshots were there, but I think I realised later that all it was just a plain copy of some demo from CrystalSpace project, with no, or just some minor modifications.

    Edit: This one
    Last edited by Volca; 4th Dec 2008 at 08:40.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: the far northeast
    I didn't know the outlook for the Dark Mod was so grim that we should throw it away and start with another game engine. The Doom3 engine is going open source next year and you can count on people working overtime to make TDM standalone, ASAP.

    If you're going to crap all over someone else's project to try to drum up interest in this non-entity, at least you can do it in real English.
    Are you using Google Translate? You can't even conjugate verbs properly.

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