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Thread: Thief: TIS - Volume One: Cop In The Shadows - Playing Feb 10th - Feb 24th

  1. #26
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    Well, I gave her a shot. I just don't like this mission. Nothing against the author, it just isn't my cup of tea. Sorry, I am going to wait until the next FM cycle to fully play through w/you guys.

  2. #27
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsmoke View Post
    Well, I gave her a shot. I just don't like this mission. Nothing against the author, it just isn't my cup of tea. Sorry, I am going to wait until the next FM cycle to fully play through w/you guys.
    For the sake of discussion - could you tell us (constructively, of course) what things you didn't like about the mission or ways you thought it could be improved?

  3. #28
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2009
    Location: Situation's changed, Tom.
    SneakyJack, could you give me a hint? (looking at my previous post)

  4. #29
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Malmö, Sweden
    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoGuy View Post
    I am stuck now! I just entered the pub, in the second part of the city, made my way via the rooftops into the machine house, got the key for that same house, got to the attic (only found a piece of loot there), and now I am stuck! What to do now? is something else at the machine house attic? I can't see anything there, it's too dark. Or do I have to find a way into the estate or the warehouse? (Cause I didn't find one still)
    Somebody could give me a hint (a big one?)
    If you have the machine house key, then you are ready to enter the estate, because that place also has a machine house, which you can now open.

  5. #30
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2008
    Difficulty: Normal
    Ghosted: No, but I suspect it'd be reasonably easy
    Secrets: 0 out of 0
    Loot: 2219 out of 2729
    Pockets Picked: 3 out of 6.
    Knockouts: 29, 1 airborne. The robots are BJ'able! Er, blackjackable, that is.
    Kills: None
    Total Time: 1 hours, 3 minutes, 34 seconds

    An odd little mission that took a while to get going, and I never really got a handle on the sprawling geography. Picks up a fair bit at the end, though. A few scale problems ( giant toilets; a bar that would require passing the drinks over at head height ) give the disturbing impression Garrett has shrunk, or is possibly only 8 years old.

    The map gives you a big clue for the start, but it's a bit too low-res to read easily.

  6. #31
    Master Builder 2018
    Registered: Jul 2008
    SneakyJack - might I suggest that for each mission we do here you (or whoever starts it) include a link to the fan missions thread for that FM in addition to the download links so that folks can go there for answers to their questions?

    That would keep this thread for discussion of the mission rather than asking and answering questions when players get stuck playing it. We already have threads for that.

    Of course, if the answer can't be found anywhere else I think it would fine to ask here but I suggest checking the other threads first before using this thread for that purpose.

    I might be way off base but I can just see this thread becoming exceedingly long and having to sift through all that just to find the posts dicussing the mission. Just an idea; what do you think?

  7. #32
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Tannar View Post
    SneakyJack - might I suggest that for each mission we do here you (or whoever starts it) include a link to the fan missions thread for that FM in addition to the download links so that folks can go there for answers to their questions?
    I was going to do that for this one but couldn't find a forum thread on it. I will do so on any future missions to keep hint questions to a minimum - so if anyone has the link to the release thread for this mission (if there was one here) please post it or PM it to me so that I can add it to the original post.

  8. #33
    Keeper of FMs
    Registered: Oct 2004
    Location: Meraux, LA
    Tannar, that is a great idea. I'm surprised I didn't think of that. I link the help threads in my reviews.

    The idea here is to discuss the FM after it's been played. Adding a link to the discussion thread may encourage some people to join in who didn't want to ask how to do something.

  9. #34
    d. Dec 2017
    Registered: May 2002
    Location: Pacific Northwest
    "Bi" is two, as in bicycle = 2-wheel bike. Bisexual, you like 'em both, he and she. So bi-weekly would be two weeks.

    Stats: 3 hours. 30 sec. Had to go back and find more loot.
    Loot: $2689 out of $2729
    Playing: Hard
    Style: Knock them out, b.j. style
    Kills: 1, Ramirez got in my way and he ticks me off.
    Pockets Picked: 4 of 6
    Locks Picked: 12
    Knock Outs: Must have bonked them all as no one was around.

    It was an interesting, first time play. Very dark in areas and would like to have had more light to investigate. Probably nothing to see anyway. Seemed very dreary and desolate with so many false doors and lack of
    any street activity.

    It suited my style in exploring and poking around. Lack of any secrets disappointed me. Spent time going behind every desk, chair, statue, etc. to try and find a lever.

    The bar was madly colored, and not to scale.

    I don't know how the rest of you found the manager, or to get out once you got in, but I found 3 boxes and dropped them on the statue. Dropped on down and found him in the big chest. To get out, I re-stacked the boxes to reach top of statue and then jumped to ledge.

    T. Nagy did a fine job of architecture and not too difficult play. Hardest thing for me, duh, was finally seeing the ladder on outside of building. I must have been walking around looking at my feet.

    It was fun participating in this, and thanks to SneakyJack for bringing this activity to the forum.
    Last edited by Dawggon; 12th Feb 2009 at 22:32.

  10. #35
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Thank you for your contributions Swiz and Dawggon, and thank you again Dawggon for your kind words - I'm glad you are enjoying it.

    Its really interesting to see what people thought of the mission due to so many different play styles and how the mission was approached.

  11. #36
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2002
    Location: USA

    have a question and comment

    comment: found a way out of the room other than using boxes. dark so it was easy to miss at first.

    question: how to get evidence. one door locked with dead guy that was killed inside, with the "pool"

    I assume he has a key to get into his safe to get docs to be evidence.

    any help is appreciated.
    "To live in the light is to see everything, to live in the dark is to see everthing you missed in the light."

  12. #37
    Member
    Registered: Apr 2002
    Location: Malmö, Sweden
    @SneakyJack, maybe you should put this link in the first post. Itīs the longest thread about the mission I found in a search:

    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71856


    @safriend: I assume you saw the guy in the pool room get murdered, yes? The one that did the deed has a key (well, two keys, actually) to the pool room.

  13. #38
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2005
    Location: Sona-Nyl
    How I played:

    Difficulty: Expert
    My Playstyle: Casual Ghost (Minimum KO's / Alerts)
    Ghosted: No
    Loot: 2579 out of 2729 = (95%)
    Pockets Picked: 4 out of 6
    Knockouts: 4
    Kills: None
    Total Time: 1 Hour 34 minutes 35 seconds

    General Mission Thoughts:
    On the whole it was a nice little mission to play through but I found it rather difficult to immerse myself in it with respect to the plot. To start with the "mission briefing" feels very out of character for Garrett and is rather vague in any case. Then when I started the game I found myself to be one of only two cops in this neighbourhood and whats more it seems there is a curfew on when we're allowed to be on the streets (okay so the briefing says something to that effect but an elaboration would have been nice).
    Getting on with the mission though, everything else seemed fair enough until I started to make my way through the warehouse in search of answers to this particular little mystery. I completed my objective ( So his corpse was stuffed into trunk? Case Closed I guess ), but left with more questions than I started with (more on that later).
    Then it was on to the second half of the mission which to me felt more like a loot hunt than trying to recover the evidence against Garrett, which was more of a side quest to me. The mansion was a nice siteseeing occasion but I would have liked to know why ramirez felt he needed to kill Lord Archer and why the nearby guards didn't seem to mind... other than to start looking for me of course. . Afterwards it was a jaunty stroll home which sadly lacked the sense of me have accomplished much with the nights errands, but at least it was fun while it lasted.

    Standout Mission Traits:
    For some reason the use of lighting in this mission stood out for me (but that could be because I've been trying to play through all the older mission in a chronological order and am still busy with the early 2001 offerings)

    Mission Oddities:
    -If you steal a passing archer's arrows you'll end up with mini-arrows in your your inventory (I'd like to know why this happens as I've come across it in other FMs as well).
    -The robots in the warehouse area are surpizingly fleshy and can be knocked out (That and the inclusion of other System Shock material made me feel like I'd stepped into the twilight zone for a moment)
    -While snooping about the warehouse a Mechanist mechanic suddenly showed up and for reasons I can't imagine was just as suddenly hacked to bits by a passing robot (I reloaded at this point and knocked him out to avoid alerting the robots)
    -The second warehouse is even stranger, here we find a large pagan structre without any further explanation to its presence... except maybe for a white "alien" entity standing around in a nearby room with a gemstone lying on the ground.
    -In Lord Archer's Library is a book that highlights but can't be read... and if you look up you'll see that someone's forgotten to feed the fish again.

    Personal Mission Accomplishments:
    -Accounted for all the pockets to be picked (missed the one on Lord Archer's corpse and on Ramirez)

  14. #39
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by jiansonz View Post
    @SneakyJack, maybe you should put this link in the first post. Itīs the longest thread about the mission I found in a search:

    http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71856


    @safriend: I assume you saw the guy in the pool room get murdered, yes? The one that did the deed has a key (well, two keys, actually) to the pool room.
    Thanks, added to the end of the original post. I tried searching for a thread about this mission but the search on this forum seems a bit broken most times.

    Great contribution Emerald Wolf! Your oddities list is well done.

  15. #40
    Moderator
    Registered: May 2000
    Location: Thunder Bay, On., Canada
    I think it would be better if this thread was kept for discussion and comments. If you get stuck on a mission and need help, post the question in an existing thread about that particular mission.

  16. #41
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2003
    Location: Australia

    Darkthiefsie Review

    Difficulty: Expert
    My Playstyle: Natural (Knock out whoever I want whenever I want)
    Ghosted: No
    Secrets: 0 out of 0
    Loot: 2519 out of 2729
    Pockets Picked: 4 out of 6. I did not miss any I know of. I think one is Lord Archerīs key, the other is probably the classical T2 bug.
    Knockouts: 27 (well knock out everyone i guess)
    While airborne: 2
    Kills: None
    Total Time: 59 Minutes 34 Seconds

    I liked this mission - it was fun and provided what I like to call a 'classic' thief experience. When compared to, say, the official OMs, i would say the quality of the gameplay stands strong (thief itself has good gameplay), but is let down by a hard to comprehend story (why is Garrett a cop? How did this happen?) and by lack of difficulty. I liked the architecture - the city architecture may have been a bit sparse but it conveyed a sense of a silent, sleeping city (though more unarmed opponents would be nice around the city - like beggars) - but there is a lack of logic in some areas that would require me to suspend my disbelief in order to maintain my immersion. Like why is Basso in a part of a city that is locked behind a door, with the key being kept with a 'A' guardsman located in a room high up in the rooftops? Another good example would be the 'green rooms' - located in the second part of the city after you get the lockpicks (near the machine rooms). Everything about that area was green and kinda reminded me of the original dooms (along with a nifty secret area that require mantling)

    However, I really enjoyed the rooftop climbing and the mansion area. The mansion, I believe, is a high point in the mission and also illustrated a marked improvement in design and construction (perhaps showing that the designer got better and more confident as he designed his mission - something I still aspire to do). Thanks for this great mission!

    - DarkThiefsie

  17. #42
    Member
    Registered: Jan 2008
    Difficulty: Expert
    My Playstyle: Knock out anyone who seems hostile.
    Ghosted: No
    Secrets: 0 out of 0
    Loot: 2417 out of 2729
    Pockets Picked: 4 out of 6. I did not miss any I know of. I think one is Lord Archerīs key, the other is probably the classical T2 bug.
    Knockouts: 28
    Kills: None
    Total Time: 1 hour 19 minutes Minutes 54 Seconds

    I thought the mission was okay. A good way to kill an hour or so, but nothing amazing. Pretty straightforward. I enjoyed the rooftop portions of the game. It always makes more sense to me that Garret can't get into every place from ground level.

    A couple of odd observations:
    Why are the bars so tall? Are there giants in this town?
    Ramirez runs really damn fast for a fat guy. I haven't played any missions with Ramirez in them in quite a while, was he always this fast?
    The mechanist mechanic towards the end just stood there in front of me griping until I whacked him on the head.
    One of the toilets (oversize, just like the bars) looked like it hadn't been flushed.

  18. #43
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Great reviews and comments Darkthiefsie and er90120. I didn't notice the height issue about the bars until I went back and replayed it after reading so many folks' comments about them

    Great contributions so far, very interesting reads.

  19. #44
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Bremerton Washington
    Difficulty played Hard
    Playstyle KO everyone I feel like.
    Ghosted No (but I think it could be done)
    Secrets 0 of 0
    Loot 2557 of 2729
    Pockets Picked 4 of 6 This included Rameriz
    KO's 26
    Kills 1 I dropped Rameriz into the pool after I KO'ed him.
    Time 2hrs 29minutes

    I agree with everything said so far. It wasn't the greatest mission but it wasn't the worse. Was this the authors first mission? In the early part of the game I got the impression the game was unfinished. It was almost as if he built a basic layout and hadn't planted all his goodies yet. As Sneaky said there were a lot of empty rooms and dead ends that could have been much more.

    On a side note I had a lot of crashes with this mission. Apparently my system automaticly powers completely off if overheated. For some reason it only occurs while playing certain FM's. I just finished Rocksbourg without a hitch and I would have thought if anything that one would cause me problems because of the frame rate. My computer is on 24 hours a day most of the time and it only powers off with darkloader. I haven't figured out what is going on yet.

  20. #45
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Thanks for your playthrough contribution bedwine! I'm not sure if my system heated up during my playthrough but it is possible depending on how the mission was setup I'm sure. I know some missions are much more system intensive than others, obviously.

    I know alot of you may have wondered why I chose this mission (other than it being suggested by pavlovscat of course!) - plain and simple I found it to be a very average, middle-of-the-road fan mission that wasnt bad by any means, but didn't stand out like a sore thumb either.

    I did this to see the different reactions from folks and see how they looked at it through their own eyes - that and the fact that this is the first edition and the test run to see what kinds of changes I need to make to cause the threads to go more smoothly

    So no worries about mission choices - I've got the next couple lined up already and they are sure to be crowd pleasers.

  21. #46
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2007
    Location: Finger paintings of the insane
    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyJack View Post
    For the sake of discussion - could you tell us (constructively, of course) what things you didn't like about the mission or ways you thought it could be improved?
    Yeah. Let me get home and write it out, and I'll edit this post.

  22. #47
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2003
    Location: Australia
    Hey all! Anyone else made any progress on this little gem?

    You know, I often wondered what would happen if the AI in thie Thief games were improved to act more naturally. The one thing I realised after playing a cop in the shadows is that knocking out guards is too easy. As noted before, I play the game naturally (i.e. i try not to impose rules on myself except not to kill - which is usually an objective nonetheless). For example, it would be interesting if a guard would actually turn around (or look behind him or her) if he or she hears footsteps comming up from behind; or if guards could notice doors opening or hear doors being picked that are right next to them. Any thoughts?

  23. #48
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkThiefsie View Post
    Hey all! Anyone else made any progress on this little gem?

    You know, I often wondered what would happen if the AI in thie Thief games were improved to act more naturally. The one thing I realised after playing a cop in the shadows is that knocking out guards is too easy. As noted before, I play the game naturally (i.e. i try not to impose rules on myself except not to kill - which is usually an objective nonetheless). For example, it would be interesting if a guard would actually turn around (or look behind him or her) if he or she hears footsteps comming up from behind; or if guards could notice doors opening or hear doors being picked that are right next to them. Any thoughts?
    In theory it sounds great to add to the challenge - but in a way part of the charm of thief to me is knowing your limits at all times. Most of the time I take comfort in the fact that I know if I have time to sneak up on a guard or not just by judging the distance - and though it may make it "easy" for me to sneak up on them knowing how they'll react and knowing their path.. it would almost be frustrating to have them turn around at random intervals only to catch you and send you running to the shadows.

    Over the past few months I've become a blackjacking machine wanting to KO everything in sight - so super sensitive guards would throw me back into the shadows into ghosting - something I can't do for the life of me.

    So I guess depending on your play style it may be a good thing - but for me I'd pass on it. I don't even like missions where you have to ghost and follow a target that stops to turn around all the time - I usually cant wait for that part of the mission to be over.

    I think this would be a great thing to have scale to the difficulty levels. Maybe easy could have regular old guard AI - medium would have random travel paths and hard could have random travel paths with super sensitive guards that check behind them at random intervals as well. I don't know if this would even be possible in the dark engine but its a thought. I know I wouldn't be playing on Hard personally if this was the case

  24. #49
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2001
    Location: Dromed Detention Room

    Some good stuff, some not so good stuff.........

    -I liked the atmosphere of the outdoor areas for the most part. It felt a bit like Thief 1 in many ways. A bit quiet and empty at times, but as someone else pointed out, the city sleeps while Garrett plies his trade. Or in this case, briefly revives his old trade.
    -I thought the mansion area looked nice for the most part, but in some ways it seemed a bit out of sorts in its layout. For example, the two long carpeted hallways with stairs down a few feet then up a few feet. There were some other oddities, but it looked nice overall.
    -The warehouse area method of entry is good ( I won't mention it for those who haven't played yet) but I would have preferred that the effect and cause of the opening door were within the same field of view. It's nice to see the results of your action. Not in absolutely every case, but I would have preferred it in this case.
    -The warehouse equipment and AI broke the immersion for me. I was jerked out of the thief world into a different world. I held on though, and worked through it to give the mission a full chance.
    -A bolder faced map would have been appreciated. I've made a mission with no map at all because Garrett got wacked on the head and woke up who knows where, so there was no casing opportunities. In this case however, he's a cop and should be able to get detailed maps of everything from the Corporation of the City of Dayport (that is if this is Dayport, can't remember all the readables right now), pretty much on demand. "I'm working a case" should suffice for an explanation without rousing anyone's ire or suspicions.
    -I like one or two dead ends for realism. I don't think the mission failed in this regard, but I admit I felt a bit of disorientation and frustration at times with the areas to be found for just a bit of loot. It at times lacked a natural feel, as though the areas were carved in for something extra to do- a "forced" fleshing out, if you will.
    -I enjoyed the use of the different classic Thief music loops in from area to area. Even though I lost immersion from time to time, the music helped to reground me in the Thief world.
    -If this mission had not been picked as the TIS selection, I probably would have let my first half hour of this mission stop me. I persisted because I wanted to participate in this excellent new thread idea. This may end up being another beneficial effect of this series of threads: people may persist in missions where they didn't before.

    **Overall I would probably give this mission between 6.75 & 7.5 out of 10. It had a certain classic feel in many ways, and it had some solid gameplay concepts, including a decent amount of use of the vertical axis.**

  25. #50
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2003
    Location: Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by SneakyJack View Post
    In theory it sounds great to add to the challenge - but in a way part of the charm of thief to me is knowing your limits at all times. Most of the time I take comfort in the fact that I know if I have time to sneak up on a guard or not just by judging the distance - and though it may make it "easy" for me to sneak up on them knowing how they'll react and knowing their path.. it would almost be frustrating to have them turn around at random intervals only to catch you and send you running to the shadows.

    Over the past few months I've become a blackjacking machine wanting to KO everything in sight - so super sensitive guards would throw me back into the shadows into ghosting - something I can't do for the life of me.

    So I guess depending on your play style it may be a good thing - but for me I'd pass on it. I don't even like missions where you have to ghost and follow a target that stops to turn around all the time - I usually cant wait for that part of the mission to be over.

    I think this would be a great thing to have scale to the difficulty levels. Maybe easy could have regular old guard AI - medium would have random travel paths and hard could have random travel paths with super sensitive guards that check behind them at random intervals as well. I don't know if this would even be possible in the dark engine but its a thought. I know I wouldn't be playing on Hard personally if this was the case
    I know what you mean, but what I meant is to add to the challenge of blackjacking. In the sense that yes, you can still blackjack an opponent, but you shouldn't be able to, say, blackjack a line of guards walking down an opponent without one hearing the other being blackjacked. It would just give the game an additional level of realism - in the sense that you would have to wait for the opportune moment to blackjack a guard. Thief already has this - waiting for a guard to be in a not so well lit area and out of view of other guards before striking. It would be nice if this was taken to a new level - such as waiting for guards to actually be alone if they were in a group before striking, or waiting for a guard to start humming of whistling to himself before running up behind him and knocking him out (his humming or whistling stops him from hearing you sneak up on him).

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