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Thread: A call to reason

  1. #1
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Limbo of the Lost

    A call to reason

    After seeing some of the threads in the Deus Ex 3 forums descend into a cesspit of bile (things may have improved but I haven't been back in a while) I felt compelled to post something to offer some perspective regarding Thief 4.
    There's nothing wrong with speculation and stating your wishes for Thief 4 (I'm sure I'll be doing some of this in the coming months), but let's not allow our fears to dominate the discussion.

    There's a catch 22 situation here.

    Without the same classic thief experience that we all want, there's a chance that the fans will be disappointed, but if EM aren't given the freedom to be as creative as they want then there's a chance they will end up making a game that ticks all the right boxes and yet is only a shadow of what it could be. We need to step back and let EM know that all we want is for them to treat the Thief universe with respect, we don't want to stifle their creativity by pressurising them to make a carbon copy of what it was that we loved about TDP/TMA/TDS.

    That's not to say that restrictions aren't sometimes a good thing. As a FM designer I've found that trying to build to DromEd's miniscule poly limit has occasionally created more aesthetically pleasing areas than I had originally planned as I was able to workaround the limitations. The restrictions that led to some of the major complaints of TDS on the other hand (awkward 1st/3rd person, missing briefing videos, small maps) were, I think, driven by corporate decisions beyond ISA's control and they did pretty well considering. I hope that EM are given as much freedom as they need, from above as well as from us fans.

    This is a call to reason to the EM developers as much as to my fellow taffers. I think we need to trust EM to produce something great. We mustn't expect and don't want them to bend to every fans whim. A game built to sate the loudest or most passionate pleas won't necessarily be a good game.

    Having said this, if Garrett grows a pair of tits and starts wearing hot pants I'm taking my bow and arrows and booking the first flight to Montreal. Just saying.

  2. #2
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Best thing to do is get the usual arguments out of the way forthwith so we can move on to better things. So...

    -The 4 in Thi4f totally sucks and shows they don't care about us.

    -The font in Thi4f is totally wrong. The T has more curve on it and they don't care about us

    -I feel that Eidos is pandering to the lowest common denominator and they don't care about us.

    -I saw a screenshot with arrows pointing out all the loot and glowing footprints showing people the best way to traverse the level. They've dumbed Thief down for the console kiddies and obviously don't care about us.

    -Randy Smith sold us out. He doesn't care about us.

    -I had some white trash thug wannabe steal my wallet without any subtlety. Obviously the Xbox360 version of Thi4f Deadly Blue Shadows influenced him badly and he doesn't know a thing about the nuances of Lytha style and they don't care about us.

    -I'd write a petition begging Eidos to not make Thi4f suck, but it'd be a waste of time cuz they don't care about us.

    -GWAAAAAA (Rick Dangerous Scream)

    I think that should cover the worst of it until the screenshots start showing up. Gird your loins.

  3. #3
    Member
    Registered: Jun 1999
    Location: Houston, TX
    How dare you ask for civility in all the excitement of the announcement? /sarcasm

    Great post sir & went back and found this response from EvilSpirit (Project Lead Designer Thief 1 & 2) and would hope we will give Eidos Montreal the lattitude to develop the game they way they see WITH also being able to visit these forums for constructive feedback and support.

    That was the great thing about LGS folks coming in here during the development of the T1/TG/T2 games. IMHO, We tried to respect they had to keep some stuff from us while still feeling welcomed enough to visit the forums and really listen to (and incorporate some of..) our feedback without being barraged with bitching.
    From EvilSpirit

    * answering about lack of information from ION (T3) developers...

    "If I had to guess? Maybe the fact that this is not the place to announce information that you'd much rather announce in a press release, at the proper time, as part of an actual publicity campaign. You know, the way these things are usually done. What makes you think they should blow that just to shut down some witch hunt?

    I know you guys are hungry for information, but c'mon, let them do their jobs."


    * later thread post discussing IMO the fine line they must walk as developers/in touch with the community...

    "And it's worth noting that, careful as I tried to be, I was taken to task more than once for some piece of information that I either actually posted or (more often) was attributed to me or exaggerated from something I had actually said. So I'm sympathetic to Warren's (and Emil's) position here. As soon as an imbroglio like this starts, you have to be very careful about what you say."
    TTLG forum Link
    Last edited by Garrettwannabe; 11th May 2009 at 15:53.

  4. #4
    jtr7
    Guest
    I can already see the rigid mindset crystallising throughout the land. No matter what evidence to the contrary, no matter how much information the devs generously shovel at us, there will always be a frightening percentage who just see their own fears and anger as reality. What new threads of disgust are already being woven and needled into the fabric of Thief fandom?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Best thing to do is get the usual arguments out of the way forthwith so we can move on to better things. So...

    -The 4 in Thi4f totally sucks and shows they don't care about us.

    -The font in Thi4f is totally wrong. The T has more curve on it and they don't care about us

    -I feel that Eidos is pandering to the lowest common denominator and they don't care about us.

    -I saw a screenshot with arrows pointing out all the loot and glowing footprints showing people the best way to traverse the level. They've dumbed Thief down for the console kiddies and obviously don't care about us.

    -Randy Smith sold us out. He doesn't care about us.

    -I had some white trash thug wannabe steal my wallet without any subtlety. Obviously the Xbox360 version of Thi4f Deadly Blue Shadows influenced him badly and he doesn't know a thing about the nuances of Lytha style and they don't care about us.

    -I'd write a petition begging Eidos to not make Thi4f suck, but it'd be a waste of time cuz they don't care about us.

    -GWAAAAAA (Rick Dangerous Scream)

    I think that should cover the worst of it until the screenshots start showing up. Gird your loins.
    I love you.

  6. #6
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Iowa
    The one that always gets me is the dogging on console gamers. Being a firm console gamer myself, it just looks arrogant to hear that kind of verbal diarhea spewing from a PC gamer's mouth. Simply because someone prefers a controller to a keyboard does not make them social retards in any way like some people would lead you to believe.

    It just smacks of that exasperated console war I'm so sick of. Just because someone likes one type of video game platform does not make them your social superior or inferior. It just means he has different tastes. To put yourself above them just makes you a delusional horse's ass.

  7. #7
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    I have no issues/biases with console games. Hell; when TombRaider came out with a PC game I went out & bought a controller for my PC which was almost identical to my PS2 controller. ('Course, that TR sucked mightily.) My only issue is that the devs created TDS for X-Box first, then converted it for the PC. Imho, that destroyed the enjoyment factor of the game for me, making it far too linear.

  8. #8
    jtr7
    Guest
    Master Taffer 512: I'm sorry you feel personally threatened when the insults are meant for those whom enjoy things we never want to see in Thief again, and didn't like the third and final act of the trilogy compromised to match console limitations. Don't consider yourself the target when the characteristics don't include you personally. Based on the points you bring up, it's not at all about your controller preference, but the PC gamer's controller preference catering to a console format. Back then, mixing the two formats was literally about taking away player control, shrinking The City, and giving it a quality that appeals mostly to children. Even though there are plenty of console titles that don't have the "bad" characteristics, and the consoles of today have significantly increased memory and power, the stink of the past lingers, and the PC gamers are reminded every time they go to play Deadly Shadows. It didn't help that the games made by "MIT students for MIT students" felt compromised for a younger, less educated (not necessarily stupid, but there was a lot of that) demographic.

    PC gamers are pissed off because the feel of the games, the past memory limitations of the consoles, the controls, etc. were imposed on the PC, which makes no sense for a PC game. A lot of classic and comfortable gameplay was mangled due to catering to the console market.

    And the PC gamers who hate consoles, hate them for taking over the industry in this decade, and leaving the greater potential for bigger games with greater and finer control in the dust. Though most gamers did not intend to strangle the PC gaming industry, they did.


    Don't own the animosity and the bitterness as a personal attack. And if you get to know us, you will find that the nastiest comments come from people who are generally nasty, and do not speak on all our behalf.

    I hope that clears things up, and I'm really sorry you or someone you know has been a kind of "victim" of a kind of bigotry.

  9. #9
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2000
    Location: Limbo of the Lost
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    Master Taffer 512:
    I hope that clears things up, and I'm really sorry you or someone you know has been a kind of "victim" of a kind of bigotry.
    Well said jtr7. Around the time Thief 3 was being developed I looked down on consoles as inferior so I can see where some of the comments against them come from. I ended up buying an Xbox and thought it was great, very well integrated etc. Having said that, they are two completely different beasts, so there are some valid arguments to be had about designing for PC vs console etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    Best thing to do is get the usual arguments out of the way forthwith so we can move on to better things. So...
    Very good! Don't think it will stop any of those types of comments though!


    I thought I should just clarify my earlier post, in case anyone from Montreal actually reads this. When I said I didn't want Garrett growing a pair of breasts, I only meant that I didn't want Thief to turn into Tomb Raider. I have nothing against introducing a new female protagonist if the story demands it. The Eidos forums are getting a little heated about this particular issue already and I don't envy EM at this point as it would be difficult to have Garrett as the main character again, and yet if they don't do this some people will be upset. This is the kind of problem I was alluding to in my post, I just wish people could trust EM to present their own story as best they can. If there were a new female apprentice, Garrett could still be involved in the storyline as a mentor. Best of both worlds really.

  10. #10
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    I actually rather liked Thief 3, despite the glaring issues. Yeah, the levels were too small, the controls were wonky, and it lacked a few vital Thiefish things (rope arrows ). But despite all these admittedly large flaws, ISA, through sheer talent, dedication, and hell, I'll be corny and say love, managed to pull it all together in the end and made it feel like Thief. It's host to some of the best missions in the series, after all.

    In the end, the one thing that sucked most about T3 was that it could've been so, so much more. They had a team well up to the challenge, but poor engine choices and the Xbox's lack of ram held them back. At least now we have more powerful consoles and the TR: Underworld engine backing up the new team. Small levels definitely won't be an issue in Thief 4. Now we just gotta wait and see if EM is up to the task.

  11. #11
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Iowa
    I understand that many of Deadly Shadows' shortcoming on the PC had the Xbox's version to blame, which was more Ion Storm's poor decision than anything else. My primary point of displeasure is the much used "dumbed down for the console tards" arguement I see pop up constantly. And that arguement smacks of platform bigotry that is immature and unnecessary in every regard.


    It's just always shocking to me that someone can judge someone else based on something as trivial as "What do you play video games on." The console war is an immature waste of energy, but in all honesty PC gamers take just as much a part of it as console gamers do.

  12. #12
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    -The 4 in Thi4f totally sucks and shows they don't care about us.

    -The font in Thi4f is totally wrong. The T has more curve on it and they don't care about us

    -I feel that Eidos is pandering to the lowest common denominator and they don't care about us.

    -I saw a screenshot with arrows pointing out all the loot and glowing footprints showing people the best way to traverse the level. They've dumbed Thief down for the console kiddies and obviously don't care about us.

    -Randy Smith sold us out. bleh bleh bleh bleh


    *SLAM!* OH GOD! *SLAM!* WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?!?! *SLAM!* ARE WE THE FUCKING FALLOUT COMMUNITY!!? *SLAM!*

    why can't we all just grow up and stop the nitpicking? please. IM BEGGING YOU!

    *has stroke*

  13. #13
    Moderator and Priest
    Registered: Mar 2002
    Location: Dinosaur Ladies of the Night
    Hell man, I think the Nintendo DS is the greatest thing ever...besides the old NES. You won't be hearing no console tard arguments from me.

  14. #14
    jtr7
    Guest
    I can assure you it's a minority who mean it to be fully malicious, and others, like myself, have only used the terms sparingly and for a narrow group among console gamers. Others are making bigoted blanket statements while really being ignorant of the fact that the majority of console gamers do not fit the characterisation, and are even also PC gamers--they are just gamers, playing games on the only machines they have to play them.

  15. #15
    Member
    Registered: Mar 2006
    Location: Iowa
    Quote Originally Posted by ganac View Post
    *SLAM!* OH GOD! *SLAM!* WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?!?! *SLAM!* ARE WE THE FUCKING FALLOUT COMMUNITY!!? *SLAM!*

    why can't we all just grow up and stop the nitpicking. please. IM BEGGING YOU!
    Fallout 3 was an amazing game. How anyone could not enjoy it because of immature nitpicking is baffleing to me.

  16. #16
    Moderator
    Registered: Dec 1999
    Location: Everywhere
    WHY IS THERE NO BOW UPGRADE? I WANT A BOW UPGRADE OR I'M BOYCOTTING THIS GAME AND EVERYTHING EIDOS PUTS OUT FROM NOW TILL I DIE.

  17. #17
    Member
    Registered: Dec 2005
    Location: thief.wikia.com
    Ok, both sides taken care of.
    I look to the future with great aniticipation. I was estatix exstat estat very happy to see this finally come to frutrition. Finally got a big werd in 'ere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Taffer 512 View Post
    Fallout 3 was an amazing game. How anyone could not enjoy it because of immature nitpicking is baffleing to me.
    Dude, I friggin *censored* when I learned of F3. Yeah, baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by fett View Post
    WHY IS THERE NO BOW UPGRADE? I WANT A BOW UPGRADE OR I'M BOYCOTTING THIS GAME AND EVERYTHING EIDOS PUTS OUT FROM NOW TILL I DIE.
    If you change those to Fallout terms, you sound exactly like everyone at NMA.
    Last edited by ganac; 11th May 2009 at 20:54.

  18. #18
    Member
    Registered: May 2008
    Just knowing that EM has been watching the forums and has been reading our threads and they have themselves said so puts my faith strongly behind them - I look forward to following the games development and hope that they learn from (and obviously don't repeat) the mistakes that were made with Deadly Shadows.

    Sending someone here to let us know that they have noticed our continued activity and that they have been paying attention said a great deal to me about the level of respect they'll show the game - and I'm sure they know what kind of fanbase they are dealing with (picking apart a silly announcement image, really? We're doing that now? Haha) so I'm not worried.

    Regardless of the outcome I'm happy that the community is still thriving and that a company (and a studio) finally saw it worthy of continuing. Here's to hoping for the best.

  19. #19
    Member
    Registered: Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
    I actually rather liked Thief 3, despite the glaring issues. Yeah, the levels were too small, the controls were wonky, and it lacked a few vital Thiefish things (rope arrows ). But despite all these admittedly large flaws, ISA, through sheer talent, dedication, and hell, I'll be corny and say love, managed to pull it all together in the end and made it feel like Thief. It's host to some of the best missions in the series, after all.

    In the end, the one thing that sucked most about T3 was that it could've been so, so much more.
    I agree with all this. I loved Thief 3 regardless of how it looked, ran, the controls or the short levels. It still felt like the sequel to Thief. It still had that same nature, atmosphere as the originals when playing. It was still very immersive...and I just get this nice feeling when playing it that I don't often get from games. The way the guards acted, the dialogue as well. It was all there :P It just needed more.

    And for some reason, one of my favourite bits in Thief 3 was leaving your apartment for the first time and seeing that guard who says, "Oh, it's just you, Garrett." I dunno why :P It just felt like such a great Thiefy moment, the calmness of it as well. I love being brought into games like that as well... it was great.

    I can't really put what I mean into words..it's difficult. It's just a feeling you get when playing the game...bah, surely I'm not alone, here?!

  20. #20
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2005
    Location: Not Kansas
    God, fett!!! You just made me do a Pepsi spit-take. And it came out my nose, too.



  21. #21
    Member
    Registered: Jul 2000
    Location: Troy,MI,USA
    I, too liked T3 a lot. Granted, it's been awhile since I played the other two and any FMs, but I loved the series as a whole, regardless of console issues. Granted, several things were removed from T3 that I didn't like (arrows now all work the same, as opposed to different depending on element), but some things I DID like (the City Hub and the different merchants who buy various different types of loot) got added. I do miss me in-between cut scenes, though...that's more of an artistic thing than a real criticism. Of course, you could call my opinion suspect...I like and/or tolerate a lot of things most people utterly despise (Spider-Man 3 comes to mind), but I also recognize and understand why people don't like it. I must just have a high pain threshold, but something has to be well and truly awful for me to hate it (the movie Skinwalkers, sitting through cutscenes in Metal Gear Solid 2). And as for consoles...I got Oblivion as a gift for the PS3. On the one hand, I have no downloadable content like for the XBox, nor can I download mods like for the PC, but at the same time I really do enjoy the game for what it is. I picked up Morrowind for the PC not too long ago, and by the very complexity and the multitude of downloadable things for it, I haven't even completed a major quest yet, because I keep finding new crap online that I like and downloading it, and having to start over. And I love PC gaming! Heck, been computer gaming since the Commodore 64 (well, technically the TI-99, but I was 1 at the time and don't remember that too clearly). It also doesn't help that my Endurance starts out at inexcusable levels...

    But I think there's a difference when somebody makes something because they love the story and the characters and when a company tries to make it for a buck. I think enough time has passed to make it clear that this isn't just a cash cow for Eidos. I think they've gotten the message over the past few years that just because your protagonist has a chest the size of the Pyrenees doesn't mean it will be a critical and commercial success (I could be wrong, though; does anyone have the sales figures for TR: Anniversary, by chance?).

    Plus, Montreal seems to be the place for games these days, like Vancouver for the film industry in the 90s. I mean, Ubisoft has been trying to move in on Thief territory for a little while now, and they've been doing all right for themselves.

  22. #22
    jtr7
    Guest
    I personally have little qualms against someone who likes T3, but it gets uncomfortable for me when the things most of us agree were failings are considered awesome and superior. Thankfully, there's little of that here anymore.

  23. #23
    Member
    Registered: Aug 2005
    Part of me wants them to preserve what made Thief 1 and 2 so amazing, that difficult to define aspect that made those games so untouchable.

    The other part of me wants them to say screw it to pandering to TTLG, to revolutionize the gameplay in a way that we never saw coming but that works, making it something more than just Thief 1 with upscaled graphics.

    Hopefully they'll end up with a nice middle ground between the two.

  24. #24
    jtr7
    Guest
    TDP as a foundation, since it contains all the vital ingredients to addict people and keep on giving and self-perpetuating. Then, make it so it just happens to look and play like THE Game of the Next Decade! Make the journalists write articles stating that the stealth genre has just been reinvented! Not merely a graphics update, oh no.
    Last edited by jtr7; 11th May 2009 at 22:43.

  25. #25
    Member
    Registered: Sep 2000
    Location: Near Brisbane, Australia
    Quote Originally Posted by jtr7 View Post
    ... it gets uncomfortable for me when the things most of us agree were failings are considered awesome and superior. Thankfully, there's little of that here anymore.

    What the hell? This attitude is disgusting.

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